Monday, October 30, 2017

Sollecito Has Some Company: Another Mafia Relative Broke And Begging For Money On Facebook

Posted by Peter Quennell



Anthony Ciavarello with his wife, the daughter of Toto Riina


How very touching….

Son-in-law of Italy’s most feared mobster reduced to begging for money on Facebook…

“Hello everyone. Unfortunately, I need to ask for help to those who know me” Ciavarello said in a Facebook post that linked to a fund-raising page.

“I promise you that I will give you everything back when I get back on track with work, or we will help others who are in need.

“I am in a disastrous situation. They took everything and I don’t even have a job now as they took my business. Who can help me, please do so as I have three children.

I am looking for a job but nobody gives one to me. Please give me a hand. Thank you and may God bless you.”

That International Business Times (UK) report was about Anthony Ciavarello.

Toto “Boss of All Bosses” Riina was the former head of the Sicilian Cosa Nostra who was locked up in the 1990s and recently his release on health grounds was denied.

Ciavarello had married Toto’s daughter. Obviously not such a good career move, although we don’t see signs that Anthony himself was a made man.

It’s widely recognised in Italy that the beleaguered mafias and other public nuisances sustain an endemic three pronged campaign to pervert justice and turn trials in their favor.

    1) Assassinate the prosecutors and judges assigned to mafia cases. Over 100 in recent years have been assassinated.

    2) Bend the laws in parliament. Bent laws excessively favoring defendants have greatly affected this case.

    3) Flame the justice system and those who work for it. The pro-Knox pro-Sollecito campaign has definite mafia fingerprints.

In Sollecito’s case there was apparently a fourth angle, which has resulted in himself and Amanda Knox walking free but has left them too without much in the way of incomes. We reported on the growing proof here.

Both often have their hands out for cash. Far from the only panhandlers in their campaigns.

Posted on 10/30/17 at 02:06 PM by Peter QuennellClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Wednesday, October 25, 2017

Excellent Series By Doug Poppa On How Weak Systems Failed Las Vegas In Mass Shooting

Posted by Peter Quennell





Please click here.

If that link works for you, you should be seeing in real time as they go online all the media reports of the mass shooting in Las Vegas on October 1st.

Scroll down and see how many (if any) analyze which Vegas police and casino security systems failed all those who died.

Not so many, right? Much (rightly) reported on the victims and much (rightly) on the psychology of the shooter and much (rightly) on the future economy of Vegas and much (rightly) on violent deaths that have happened since elsewhere.

But on the precise weaknesses of the systems that failed the casinos and the cops and Vegas as a whole… not so much.

Part of the problem is that media rarely have the right expertise. Even if they do, it is deliberately made hard in these fields for outsiders to peer within.

We have often remarked on how hard it is for different jurisdictions and whole nations to learn from one another. The apex justice academy in the US, John Jay College, hosted a global conference where the keynote speaker blatantly lied without push-back about the justice system in Italy (see here and here and here)..

Amazingly, only a BALTIMORE newspaper (over 2,000 miles away) so far is carrying a professional’s detailed observations of which systems had gone wrong or fallen short - findings that could matter most in saving future lives.

Doug Poppa has some national fame (see bio at the end of each report below) and has been featured on Inside Edition, A Current Affair, and CBS News’ Street Stories. He told us he offered the series to national media outlets but did not yet hear back.

So media systems are at fault here as well - no great surprise to us.

These are the Poppa reports in the Baltimore Post-Examiner so far. Any more appearing will be added. If you only have time to tread one right now, it was the fifth (“Three weeks after the Las Vegas massacre and what do we know?”) that first caught our eye.

1. Las Vegas Police change timeline of shooting

2. Former Navy Seal: Las Vegas gunman’s room was not a contained situation

3. Las Vegas casinos are in bed with the police

4. Las Vegas Judge orders MGM Resorts International not to destroy evidence

5. Three weeks after the Las Vegas massacre and what do we know?

6. Paddock not first shooter on an MGM Resorts International property

7. Who is in charge of the Las Vegas Mandalay Bay shooting investigation?

8. Las Vegas Metropolitan Police under FBI public corruption probe

9. Why Las Vegas police opened fire in Paddock’s room still a mystery

10. Why trust anything Sheriff Lombardo or MGM Resorts International say

As many newspapers do eventually scroll reports out of sight here are the key parts of the extraordinary 22 October report.

Three weeks after the Las Vegas massacre and what do we know?

By Doug Poppa · October 22, 2017
·
Well, not much except the fact that 58 people are dead and more than 500 injured and domestic terrorist Stephen Paddock was the lone shooter, so we are told.

Paddock murdered 58 people, authorities claim. His act of violence upon the general population was responsible for not only their murders, but for the wounding and all other injuries caused by his actions to over 500 people, police say. As far as I am concerned he committed his crime in Clark County in the State of Nevada. Under the laws of Nevada, he is a domestic terrorist.

I guess it’s more politically correct to call him a mass murderer than a domestic terrorist at least in Las Vegas.

Anything else that we were told at this point is speculation, rumor and in the words of Clark County Sheriff, Joe Lombardo who runs the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department, “unverified.”

Instead of giving facts to the public the sheriff decided that he would give us unverified information just to appease the public’s demand for information. He said that himself.

Las Vegas Police found 23 firearms in Paddock’s 32nd floor room at Mandalay Bay. (Police photo)

That was Lombardo’s excuse when he changed the timeline of when Mandalay Bay Security Officer Jesus Campos got shot. At first, Lombardo told us that happened at 9:59 p.m., a full six minutes before he said the gunman, Stephen Paddock, opened fire on the crowd. Then a week later Lombardo changed that timeline and said that Campos got shot around the same time that Paddock opened fire at 10:05 p.m.

That indeed may be true, but although Lombardo said that the police have evidence that can corroborate that, he provided the press with nothing to back up those assertions.

Then we heard when the LVMPD first interviewed Campos after the shooting something was wrong. The FBI had to bring Campos back in to re-interview him because the FBI realized that the original timeline didn’t purport to what Campos told the LVMPD.

Were the investigators that inexperienced that it took two weeks to come up with an entirely new timeline or is there another agenda here?

It doesn’t sound like the LVMPD detectives I worked with during my 20 years in the casino industry.

Was the FBI responsible for correcting one of the worst public relations nightmares in modern law enforcement history?

The FBI is not without criticism here either.

Less than 24 hours after the massacre the FBI told the media that so far there was no connection between Paddock and any group. Wow, that must be the fastest investigation in FBI history, especially when they said they recovered numerous electronic devices that were being analyzed by the FBI laboratory.

The new timeline if true, seems to favor MGM Resorts International, the owners of the Mandalay Bay, whose major worry right now is lawsuits and their bottom line.

They pulled off two publicity stunts by having the two employees who were on the 32nd floor and were shot at, with one being hit, speak on national television. All that did was lead to more questions.

The initial investigation might be nothing more than poor police work, still it should never have taken two weeks to get a definitive timeline.

The national media and local media did a horrible job covering this tragedy as far as the press conferences went.

The media did a poor job of scrutinizing the police radio traffic from Oct. 1, the night of the massacre, or if they did they didn’t raise questions about how the radio traffic contradicted statements made by the LVMPD and MGM Resorts International.

The media focused entirely only on the shooting at the concert venue and the shooter.

There was much more going on that night. Las Vegas was being attacked, at least that’s the what the police initially believed. For hours the police were responding to active shooter incidents all over the Las Vegas strip. That is a story in and of itself. Who was calling all those calls in and why? What’s the status of that investigation or is there one?

Could that have been done to see how the police would respond to active shooters at multiple properties?

Broadcasting every tactical move the police were making that night unencrypted, for all the world to hear was a major mistake. It could have gotten police officers and civilians killed had it been a genuine terrorist attack in Las Vegas. To add insult to injury those recordings are available on the internet for any nut case or terrorist to analyze and study.

Three weeks later we have heard nothing of why a SWAT officer discharged his weapon inside the gunman’s room when we were told that Paddock was already dead when they entered. The Baltimore Post-Examiner was the first to break that story.

Was it an accidental discharge and if so who was injured?

The SWAT officer told the dispatcher after they cleared the room that a SWAT officer discharged his weapon, and there were no other injuries. He also said that they had one suspect down at this point and that was the room they were firing from.  Little things like that bother me, maybe nothing there, but I want answers.

Early on, the police told the media that Paddock was inside the room alone during his stay. There is no video surveillance in the hallway at Mandalay Bay, no video surveillance in the stairwells at Mandalay Bay. The only camera we are told is at the elevator core.

When I was still working in the industry I knew of only five properties that had video surveillance in the halls of the guest rooming areas, MGM Grand, Tropicana, Caesars Palace, Planet Hollywood and the Stratosphere.

Anyone at any time could have come up or down from the stairwells and entered his room without ever being seen.

The lock interrogation on the door lock would only indicate that a key card was placed into the lock. It cannot tell you who put the key card in the door.

Did forensic analysis of the interior of the room lead the police to believe he was inside alone for his entire stay? And how could that have been completed so fast?

Fingerprints lifted from the room, DNA samples obtained from glasses, dishes, cigarettes, toilet, towels, etc. would be analyzed. But that is also a problem to because there would be fingerprints, and DNA left from prior occupants of the room and the hotel staff.

If Paddock is indeed the only suspect, then there will no criminal case, you can’t prosecute a dead body. The LVMPD should start releasing whatever evidence they have to corroborate the timeline to include all the 911 Communications Center telephone calls and dispatch recordings. We wouldn’t want anything getting deleted or altered.

Release Campos’ written voluntary statement to the police and his recorded interview with police investigators. That would be a good start.

Why did the LVMPD request additional armored vehicles from a private company the night of the shooting?

The Baltimore Post-Examiner was the first to break that story too. Does not the LVMPD have adequate armored vehicles to protect their police officers and the public and if not, why? Is it to protect the image of the city, so it doesn’t appear the police are militarized, after all that wouldn’t be politically correct?

I guess the hell with officer safety. Again, adding insult to injury they broadcasted over the police radio that night for all the world to hear that the LVMPD is short on armored vehicles.

Why is it that not all LVMPD police officers have AR-15 platform type rifles in their vehicles? Some do if they are assigned to special units. Others don’t, and I am told that they must purchase those rifles out of their own pocket. What’s going on here Lombardo? Are you more concerned with running a politically correct police department or one that should have available all the equipment needed?

Purchase additional armored vehicles and store them at each area command in the county so they would be available for a rapid response, to hell with being politically correct.

Initiate Hercules teams as they did in New York City and have them patrolling the strip every day.

If the police need armored vehicles, give it to them. If police officers need rifles and other gear, give it to them.  A rich tourist city like Las Vegas and if the police officers don’t have the equipment they need to keep themselves and the public safe then that is a freaking disgrace.

Why the police waited for over an hour to enter Paddock’s room when they weren’t even sure he was still inside the room, evident by the radio traffic that night, is another question?

Let’s wait for SWAT my ass. Paddock could have been out ready to do more carnage. Nobody knew for sure until they went into the room.

Plenty of things bother me with this case.  Why Paddock brought 23 rifles into the room seems like overkill for a one-man operation.

Why he stopped shooting after only ten minutes and then allegedly shot himself in the head, when he had enough ammunition and armament to hold off the police for hours and or keep firing bothers me.

The leaked crime scene photographs also raise some questions. I want to see the coroner’s report, estimated time of death, gunshot wound, etc. Also, the blood splatter patterns near the body.

Paddock was registered under his own name. Lombardo also changed Paddock’s check-in date more than a week after the shooting. First, Lombardo told us that Paddock checked in on the 28th then revised that to the 25th of September. His girlfriend was added to the registration. Why, if she wasn’t there?

Then the sheriff had the nerve to say that wasn’t breaking news.

I have some breaking news of my own for the sheriff.

Your department is investigating the worst mass shooting in United States history.

If you can foul up something so simple as when someone checked into a hotel room in Las Vegas why should we believe anything.

Here’s another thing that bugged me that night.

I knew well before midnight that Paddock was the suspect who had slaughtered all those people less than two hours before.

Not because I was involved with Paddock, but because the police told me. They even told me where he lived. Yes, they did. They didn’t only just tell me, they broadcasted it for anyone who was listening.

“Control, copy some information. Potential name, related with the suspect.” “Go ahead.” “There was a player’s card that was out on the countertop next to the wallet of the suspect who is 419 [dead]. Break. It is an M Life platinum players card with the name of Marilou Danley. Mary-adam-robert-ida-lincoln-ocean-union. Last name is Danley, david-adam-nora-lincoln-easy-yellow.” “Copy.”

“That radio traffic, what was that last radio traffic?” “It looks like that name I gave you shares an address with the suspect. We can give you that address if you need to send units there.” “OK, go ahead when you’re ready.” “That’s 1372 Babbling Brook Court, and that’s in Mesquite, Nevada. Babbling Brook Court. Send resident officers there.” “Copy, 1372 Babbling Brook Court in Mesquite. Units be advised.” “It’s his driver’s license address as well.”

The police didn’t know that night if the shooter was acting alone, if this was a terrorist attack and there were others involved, specifically since they were responding to calls for active shooters at other Strip properties.

That information should never have come over the radio.

I hope they were at Paddock’s home before this went out over the air. They should have had the guest’s information from hotel registration way before they entered the room and hopefully the house in Mesquite was covered way before the room entry.

Within five minutes of that radio traffic I had Paddock’s name. I went to the Clark County Assessor website, typed in that address, and I had his name, the date he purchased the house and the purchase price.

At least since 9/11, casino owners knew that Las Vegas was a target for a terrorist attack.  We have had threats made against the city. Police and security personnel have known that.

Security directors at all strip properties are members of the Las Vegas Security Chief’s Association, which has monthly meetings where topics concerning terrorism have been discussed.

Security officers from many properties have attended training seminars conducted by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security and other agencies in active shooter response, suicide bomber response, improvised explosives devices, etc.

Guns, explosives and vehicles and any combination of those are used in terror attacks. You can’t have an active shooter incident without a firearm.

Considering all this, how was it that Paddock had a small arsenal, or as one Metro officer said on 60 Minutes, “it looked like a gun shop in there,” inside room 135 on the 32nd floor of the Mandalay Bay.

People died, and people were wounded because there were no security measures in place that could have prevented Paddock from ever reaching a hotel rooming area with luggage that contained 23 firearms, thousands of rounds of ammunition and accessories.

That fact cannot be denied.

In 2013, Adam Walker, an intelligence analyst with the Southern Nevada Counter-Terrorism Center was quoted as saying that “…. it’s not a question of ‘if,’ it’s a question of ‘when’ something happens on Las Vegas Boulevard.”

On October 1, 2017 something did happen on Las Vegas Boulevard. We are just being kept from the entire truth.

Posted on 10/25/17 at 10:22 AM by Peter QuennellClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Friday, October 20, 2017

Given The Semi-Public Tensions, Could Someone Close To Knox Blow Her Cover At Last?

Posted by Cardiol MD



By request, image of victim Laci (center) with husband and his half-sister

1. The Minefield Knox Inhabits

Amanda Knox is not exactly surrounded wall-to-wall with friends. There were family tensions going way back which even Knox mentioned in her book.

Since returning to the US her reaching out to those who supported her 2007-11 has been selective and cursory at best.

There have been frequent differences and jealousies among the bandwagon of opportunists which exploded into view when Frank Sforza laid a trail of violence among supporters in the United States.

Her whole family took a financial hit. Many at her high-school didnt appreciate her putting that school under a cloud. When she was first arrested, only a few among her circle at the University of Washington spoke for her.

Unnamed others at her school and university talked about Knox frequently acting wild and being on drugs, and how to them her involvement in a death caused minimal surprise. 

She defamed many in Italy and was the direct cause of her drug dealer ending up in prison. In her paid presentations and TV appearances she continues to defame and actively tries to inflict hurt.

2. Examples Of Potential Threats

Here is a partial list of those who know enough of the truth to sell Knox out in their own name or secretly by proxy - we have already had several nibbles.

1. Rudy Guede

2. Raffaele Sollecito

3. Knox’s mother: Edda Mellas

4. Knox’s father: Curt Knox

5. Knox’s step-father: Chris Mellas

6. Knox’s younger sister: Deanna

7. Knox’s best friend in Seattle: Madison Paxton

8. Knox’s two step-sisters: Ashley Knox and Delaney Knox

9. Knox’s lawyers: Carlo Dalla Vedova and Luciano Ghirga

10. Raffaele Sollecito’s Father: Francesco Sollecito

11. Raffaele Sollecito’s Sister: Vanessa Sollecito

12. Raffaele Sollecito’s Lawyer: Luca Maori

13. Chris Robinson?

Could any of those turn? Probably not, but all those and quite a few other people close to Amanda Knox do know she is guilty in the killing of Meredith Kercher.

It may seem to some of them that Knox and Sollecito may have intended “only” to “teach-her-a-lesson” violently torturing and humiliating Meredith using knives.

And that the stabbing-to-death occurred “only” after Meredith screamed, when Knox and Sollecito impulsively silenced Meredith by driving in their knives.

They may open up to a halfway point seeking sympathy which they think is better than seeing Knox live under a black cloud of suspicion all her life.

Or the incessant stalking of Meredith’s family led by the Mellases may come to seem too much. Or they may simply dislike Knox and her family for their callousness and greed. Who knows?

3. Scott Petersen Is Sold Out

Main poster Giustizia explained the case and the many parallels in this post here.

Now see this book Blood Brother: 33 Reasons My Brother Scott Peterson Is Guilty by his half-sister Anne Bird.

Scott’s natural father is Lee Peterson. Anne Bird’s natural father is apparently unlisted, but is not Lee Peterson.

Anne Bird is now the adoptive daughter of Jerri and Tom Grady. Anne Bird did not meet Scott until June 1997, when Anne was 32 and Scott was 24. (Born: July 8, 1965, age 52, San Diego County, California, CA).

In summary: Spouse: Tim Bird (m. 1998). Parents: Jackie Peterson. Books: Blood Brother: 33 Reasons My Brother Scott Peterson Is Guilty. Siblings: Scott Peterson born October 24, 1972)

4. Why Did She Speak Out?

The list provided by Anne Bird of her “reasons” is very subjective, and does not coincide with those of the Peterson Jury.

1. On our last day at Disneyland, when Ryan went missing and everyone panicked, Scott stayed on his cell in his own world. Total disconnect. *

2. While at Tommy’s christening on January 12, 2003, Scott sat and held Tommy entire time and looked uncomfortable. Rector seemed to get bad feeling about Scott, like he knew something or wasn’t buying it.

3. Scott upgraded his porn channel later that day.

4. In interviews with Gloria Gomez and Diane Sawyer, Scott said Laci knew about Amber. No way she knew he was having an affair! No way she would have put up with it.*

5. On Ryan’s third birthday, Scott stayed with us. He had just returned from his P.O. box in Modesto and had hate mail with him. There was a praying mantis on one, and another had a birthday cake picture with three candles and it said “Happy Birthday Ryan.” This made me scared, and I do not know where it came from or how anyone else would know about Ryan’s birthday. Also, there was a letter—the one he thought was from the Rocha family—that was definitely a death threat. He seemed to be able to joke about it.

6. Scott partying, celebrating while Laci is missing. A lot of “carrying on” the entire time I was with him.*

7. When he was at our house and the news came on, he watched and asked if he should get rid of his goatee. Did not seem to recognize how serious it was that he was a “person of interest.”

8. Flirting with our babysitter. Made “flirtinis.” Babysitter felt uncomfortable and left.

9. Jackie and Lee telling me that if asked about babysitter incident, I should just deny it or “not recall” it, suggesting to me that they didn’t want anybody opening that can of worms.

10. The girl he got pregnant in Arizona—was this the reason he left college? The girl had an abortion; then Scott came home.

11. Scott often arrived in different cars. Was he switching cars to avoid being followed?

12. Scott borrowing the shovel up at Lake Arrowhead. He said, “I have a shovel I borrowed that I need to return.”Is it possible he buried something?*

13. Scott did not have money, according to Jackie. Yet he purchased items from REI and North Face outlets while here.

14. Appeared uninterested in search for Laci. I brought up several ideas/ leads (from the news), but he had no direction/ interest in them. I asked if there was anywhere anyone should be looking and brought out map of Modesto. He pointed to Mape’s Ranch (?) like he was very annoyed with me. “Maybe there,” he said.*

15. I saw the table setting from the People magazine photograph and it looks like Scott set the table for Christmas Eve dinner. I have set a table with Laci at a Latham family reunion, and she sets the table correctly. The Christmas “crackers” are a finishing touch—not the only thing you put on a table. There is also no tablecloth and it looks absolutely not up to Laci’s high standards of table setting (something she excelled at).*

16. When I asked about his (new) hair color he said that it was bleached in the swimming pool up in Mammoth when he was there skiing.

17. Scott used alias—Cal, short for California, a name he said that he and Laci originally chose for Conner(IC-insert: on Dec 24th, 2002 Conner was 227 days post-conception, or in his 33rd post-conceptual week, and 53 days or nearly 8 weeks pre-EDD. Therefore he satisfied the SCOTUS requirement for Personhood.) —to look at apartments for rent so that he didn’t have to give his name. But that wasn’t the name I heard (they wanted).

18. He left our house two to three times to go to Modesto to clean the pool and mow the lawn. He said he did not want the neighbors seeing the pool turning green. Did anyone check the pool for any evidence?

19. Chilling story about the overgrown cemetery in Mendocino. Made up? Possibly. On verge of confessing? Looked like it.

20. Two [of Scott’s] cousins said he was investigated in connection with the disappearance of Kristin Smart, the girl from SLO (missing since 1996).

21. Cousins said somebody must have been helping Scott flee if there was all the stuff in the back of the car.

22. Scott tried to get help removing GPS device from truck. Very annoyed to be tracked at all.

23. Despite what Jackie [The natural mother of Anne and Scott who had given Anne away for adoption soon after Anne’s birth] said on television about Scott and Laci’s “perfect marriage,” on three separate occasions (before Laci disappeared) she told me Scott and Laci were having problems.*

24. Scott claimed he’d had a delusion of speaking into the mirror at their house with Laci. He said this after I told him I had seen Sharon Rocha on the news saying she saw Laci on their couch. [Such visions] are apparently brought on by “extreme grief” or “extreme guilt.”

25. Scott told me that he had another affair before Amber Frey, someone in SLO, and did not give a time when that one occurred. Also, had slept with someone (or two?) on an airplane flight. On that flight he said he “took turns” between two airplane bathrooms. I have no idea when this occurred and did not ask any other details.

26. In L.A., gay relatives took Scott barhopping, went to a gay bar. Scott said he was bummed that no one hit on him.

27. Every time there was a search in the bay, Scott’s voice and reaction was more heightened, and he would say things like “They are wasting their time when they could be out looking for her,” “Time would be better spent looking for her somewhere else.” He was louder and more emotional when they were looking in the bay. *

28. Drinks at the Ballast. At the bar, Scott pulled Mexican pesos from his pocket. When [Gordo] asked if he was going to Mexico sometime soon, Scott didn’t respond. *

29. Dinner at the SD Yacht Club with some of my friends. At 9: 00 P.M. I told Scott that we had to get going, and he said that it was ridiculous—“ Who cares?” I called home and said we would be late; kept getting “Who cares?” attitude from Scott, and finally said we had to leave about 10: 30 or 11: 00 P.M.

30. I was the first to call and let him know they found a body of a woman in the bay. He said “They’ll find out it’s not Laci, and they will keep looking for her.” *

31. When I said they’d found the body of a baby the day before, he said “What?!… That’s terrible. Who would do such a thing?!” Seemed very disturbed and voice was loud and emotional again. *

32. On April 17, 2003 Scott stayed at my parents’ house in San Diego. When I asked him why he didn’t go to the Lake Arrowhead house he said his car spun out. I don’t believe he ever went there. I think he went straight to my parents’ because he thought the police knew about the Lake Arrowhead house. *

33. On last prison visit to Redwood, Scott waited till end of visit and said: “You know I didn’t kill my wife.” Couldn’t look me in the eye, then checked for my reaction.*

* indicates “plausibly relevant to Meredith’s case.

Tick tick tick…

Posted on 10/20/17 at 09:25 AM by Cardiol MDClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Monday, October 16, 2017

Netflixhoax 21(d) Omitted - This Very Telling Knox Questioning By Dr Mignini #4

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters



Knox looks sadly at dad. She knows he knows, all parents did, and so stalked Kercher family.


(Long post, click here to go straight to Comments.)

1. Status Of Things At The Time

This follows from Post 1 and Post 2 and Post 3.

In this post we jump a year and a half to where Dr Mignini picks up the threads at trial.

As we’ll illustrate in other posts soon, Netflix deliberately incited a vast wave of hate and contempt and defamatory accusations against Dr Mignini, by way of omitting ALL of the careful steps he and others had taken to build an exceptionally strong case ALL of which Netflix omitted too.

The prosecution component of the trial in the first half of 2009 was almost a masterclass in how such things should be done. Evidence point after evidence point after evidence point was introduced with only perfunctory challenges by the defense. Netflix didnt tell you that?!

All events that took place in the Perugia central police station after Meredith’s death took day after day for those many present to describe. Netflix didnt tell you that?!

The defense had almost no come-back and was generally anxious to move along. Knox and Sollecito haplessly sat through all of this. They knew what they were up against. Netflix didnt tell you that?!

The defense portion of the trial occupied only a few trial days and usually not full days at that, as they had so little to present. Netflix didnt tell you that?! Then the prosecutions summations hammered the bleak facts home. Netflix didnt tell you that?!

Knox was on the stand for two full days. She herself did her the most harm - those listening in Italian could see how rarely she told the truth or even made sense. Netflix didnt tell you that?!

She had zero explanation for why she fingered Patrick Lumumba and left him desperately scared in jail for about two weeks. Netflix didnt tell you that?!

Dr Mignini didnt even speak until Knox’s second day.

The first day consisted of Lumumba’s lawyer Pacelli giving Knox a very hard time. Then Knox’s lawyers labored for hour after hour to bring out the human in her and to make her malicious allegations a daffy oversight.

Three things to look for here: (1) Was Amanda Knox making things up? (2) Was Dr Mignini making things up? (3) In finding Knox guilty of calunnia for which she served three years, was the jury observing all of this somehow being duped?

2. Amanda Knox Trial Testimony—Saturday, June 13 2009

Transcription of the full two days from tapes and translation was by Thoughtful for our Wiki case file.

Below GCM is Judge Massei, GM is Dr Giuliano Mignini, AK is Amanda Knox, and CDV is Knox lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova.

GCM:
If the public could politely cease the noise and comments…yes…we could begin the audience. [He recalls: trial of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, all the names of lawyers involved, defense and prosecution, civil plaintiffs]. Please state your identity again.
AK:
Amanda Knox, born July 9, 1987, in Seattle, Washington, USA.
GCM:
Please go ahead, pubblico ministero.
GM:
All right, Miss Knox, can you tell us about when you first met Raffaele Sollecito?
AK:
It was at a concert at the Universita per Stranieri, I think it was on Oct 25.
GM:
October 25?
AK:
So I’ve understood [odd remark: meaning “so I’ve been told?”]
GM:
So it was just about a week before the facts, more or less. Now, on the afternoon and evening of Oct 31, can you tell us what you did?
AK:
In the evening?
GM:
Afternoon and evening.
AK:
So, in the afternoon, I remember that I met a friend for coffee, my friend Spiros. We had coffee in the center, and then in the street when I was going back to meet Raffaele, I was still with him and I met someone I had gotten to know at “Le Chic”, who said “We’ll see each other later at Le Chic”...
GM:
You said “We’ll see each other later?”
AK:
Yes, yes.
GM:
To whom? To Raffaele’s friend?
AK:
No, no. It was my friend, that I had gotten to know in a bar, a cafe that also had internet service, and then, okay. What happened next? [Long pause with sound ‘ummmmm’, ‘hmmm’.] Did I go home? I can’t remember.
GM:
You can’t remember.
AK:
And then, for Halloween, I know I went to Le Chic first, and then after I was there for a little while, I again met Spiros, outside the Merlin, and we went to a place with a bunch of his friends, I can’t remember what place it was now, a kind of Irish pub, and then he…I said I was tired and wanted to meet Raffaele in the center, and so he accompanied me on foot to near the church, where I met Raffaele, who took me to his apartment.

[Start of 7:52 minute video segment]
GM:
Now. Have you ever made use of drugs? In particular on the afternoon or the evening of Nov 1?
AK:
I did smoke a joint with Raffaele in the evening, yes.
GM:
So you do confirm this detail.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
So now we get to Patrick’s message.
AK:
Okay.
GM:
So, Patrick’s message came, I believe you said, at 8:15.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
More or less. What did it say exactly?
AK:
I don’t remember the exact words…
GM:
[Interrupts] Was it in Italian? Was it in Italian?
AK:
Yes, it was in Italian. It had to do with the fact that there wasn’t anyone at Le Chic so I didn’t need to go to work.
GM:
And you saw this message at around what time?
AK:
Uh, I don’t remember the time.
GM:
But was it after a little while or right away?
AK:
I was on Raffaele’s bed and then I noticed that there was this symbol on my phone.
GM:
But you don’t remember when?
AK:
No. I don’t look at the clock.
GM:
And you answered Patrick—how did you answer?
AK:
Well, I wrote something like “Okay, see you later [“ci vediamo piu—um—tardi”], buona serata.
GM:
You answered in which language?
AK:
In Italian. He didn’t speak English.
GM:
“Ci vediamo piu tardi”, you said.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
OK—
AK:
Which in English means “See you”—
GM:
Yes but, excuse me, but you answered in Italian.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
“Ci vediamo piu tardi.”
AK:
He doesn’t speak English.
GM:
Very well. It follows that your cell phone [gives number] and Sollecito’s [gives number] stopped their activity respectively, yours at 8:35 and his at 8:42. Why?
AK:
I turned mine off, because I didn’t want to get another message from Patrick, because actually I didn’t really want to go to work. For example, he had told me that I didn’t have to work, but if then a bunch of people showed up, well honestly, he had told me I didn’t have to go to work and I wanted to stay with Raffaele.
GM:
Yesterday if I’m not mistaken, you said that you did it to stay with Raffaele.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
On page 40 (I don’t know if it corresponds) of the minutes of your interrogation of December 17, you said, I’ll read it, that: “I turned off my phone to save my battery.” Do you remember that?
AK:
Well, if it’s written there, it must be okay.
GM:
Today you’re saying one thing, in the interrogation you said another. [Voice intervenes: can you be more precise about the page?] Page 40: I’ll read it. “But why did you turn off your phone?” Interrogation of Dec 17. “To save my battery.” “Do you usually keep it on at night?” [He stops, annoyed at some murmuring.]
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me.
CP?:
We’re not interrupting, we’re finding the page.
GCM:
Please, please [because of noise]. 39, 40, but anyway, these were the words. 39 or 40 is the page. Please, go ahead, pubblico ministero.
GM:
Knox’s answer: “To save my battery.” “Do you usually keep it on at night?” “If I have something to do the next morning.” “But the next morning was the day on which everyone skipped school.” “But we were supposed to go to Gubbio the next day with Raffaele.” The next day was the 2nd?
AK:
Mhm.
GM:
You wanted to go to Gubbio on the 2nd or the 3rd?
AK:
No, on the 2nd we wanted to go to Gubbio.
GM:
So, you turned off your telephone so Patrick wouldn’t be able to call you in to work, or you turned it off to save your battery, not to use up your battery. Now, you remember what, what battery you had? what kind of autonomy it had?
AK:
What kind of battery?
GM:
Yes.
AK:
I don’t know what type of battery it was, but…
GM:
The autonomy of the battery? Do you remember?
AK:
I think it was about one or two days. It wasn’t very long, but in the end, well, for example, the next morning, I was going to go to Gubbio, but I didn’t have time to charge up the battery, so I thought, I don’t want to get any phone calls this evening, and if I want to have my phone with me in Gubbio, I wanted it to be reasonably charged up. That’s why I turned it off.
GM:
I see. Now you’re saying this was the motive.
GCM:
I heard an objection. [Annoyed voices.] Please, please. Go ahead. [Voices arguing, dalla Vedova (I think it’s him) is standing up.]
GCM:
This is an analysis. Indeed, yesterday Amanda Knox stated that turning off the cell phone was to guarantee her a free evening without being… [interruption] Excuse me. But at the interrogation of Dec 17 she said that it was both to save battery and also for this reason [interruptions, arguing]. So, I thought I understood that she had two reasons. We’re not arguing about that.
??:
Also not to be called by Patrick.
GCM:
Yes, yes. Both reasons.
CDV:
The objection isn’t about that. It’s about…
GCM:
Excuse me, please. This is an analysis. let’s return to the cross-examination by the pubblico ministero. The defense lawyers will have the final words. Everyone will hear what they have to say then.
CDV:
My objection was because the introductory request—
GCM:
Please, please.
??:
Enough now [“adesso basta”].
CDV:
My objection concerned the way the pubblico ministero presented his question, appearing to contest the fact that in the Dec 17 interrogation, Amanda also explained that she turned off her phone because she didn’t want to be called by Patrick, because she didn’t want to be disturbed. This doesn’t correspond to the truth, because on page 40 of the minutes, she actually says “So, I turned it off also to not run the risk that Patrick would change his mind and call me in.”
GCM:
Excuse me, fine. We heard. The pubblico ministero gave—
CDV:
It wasn’t an objection.
GCM:
All right, but this is an analysis. The pubblico ministero gave everything concerning the reason, two reasons, why the cell phone was turned off. Later there will be analyses to determine if there is a contradiction, or a fifty per cent contradiction, or no contradiction. Now let’s leave this question.
GM:
I would like not to be interrupted.
GCM:
Please, pubblico ministero. Go ahead.

[End of video segment]
GM:
Why? erm-ahem—why did you—we will return to this point several times.
AK:
Okay.
GM:
Why did you speak about Patrick only in the interrogation of Nov 6 at 1:45? Why didn’t you mention him before? You never mentioned him before.
AK:
Before when?
GM:
In your preceding declarations, on Nov 2 at 15:30, on Nov 3 at 14:45, then, there was another one, Nov 4, 14:45, and then there’s Nov 6, 1:45. Only in these declarations, and then in the following spontaneous declarations, did you mention the name of Patrick. Why hadn’t you ever mentioned him before?
AK:
Because that was the one where they suggested Patrick’s name to me.
GM:
All right, now is the time for you to make this precise and specific. At this point I will take…no, I’ll come back to it later. You need to explain this. You have stated: “The name of Patrick was suggested to me. I was hit, pressured.”
AK:
Yes.
GM:
Now you have to tell me in a completely detailed way, you have to remember for real, you have to explain step by step, who, how, when, was the name of Patrick suggested to you, and what had been done before that point. The name of Patrick didn’t just come up like a mushroom; there was a preceding situation. Who put pressure on you, what do you mean by the word “pressure”, who hit you? You said: “They hit me”, and at the request of the lawyer Ghirga, yesterday, you described two little blows, two cuffs.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
So that would be what you meant by being hit?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
Or something else? Tell me if there was something else. You can tell us.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
So, you are—[Interruptions] The question is—[Interruptions] Escuse me. Excuse me. The question is quite clear. He is repeating this in order to give the accused a chance to add something to these events that were explained by the accused yesterday. The pubblico ministero is asking to return to these events mentioned yesterday in order to obtain more detail about exactly what happened and who did it. Please be as precise as possible.
GM:
So you were in front of—
GCM:
The question is clear.
GM:
All right, so tell us.
GCM:
Yes, it’s clear.
AK:
All right. Okay.
GCM:
If you could give more detail, be more precise, exactly what was suggested to you, about the cuffs, all that.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
And who did all this, if you can.

[Start of 16:01 minute video segment]
AK:
Okay. Fine. So, when I got to the Questura, they placed me to the side, near the elevator, where I was waiting for Raffaele. I had taken my homework, and was starting to do my homework, but a policeman came in, in fact there were I don’t know, three of them or something, and they wanted to go on talking to me. They asked me again—
GM:
Excuse me, excuse me—
AK:
[coldly] Can I tell the story?
GM:
Excuse me for interrupting you otherwise we’ll forget—
CDV:
Presidente, I object to this way of doing things. The question was asked—[Yelling, interruptions]—we should wait for the answer.
GM:
It’s impossible to go on like this, no, no.
CDV:
If a question is asked, she has to be able to answer.
GCM:
Please, please. That’s correct. There is a rule that was introduced, which says that we should absolutely avoid interruptions from anyone.
CDV:
I want to ask that she be allowed to finish her answer. She has the right, no?
GCM:
Please, please, pubblico ministero. It’s impossible to go on this way.
GM:
I would like to, I can—
GCM:
No no no, no one can. We have to make sure that while someone is speaking, there are never any superimposed voices. And since the accused is undergoing examination, she has the right to be allowed to answer in the calmest possible way. Interruptions and talking at the same time don’t help her, and they can’t be written down in the minutes, which obliges the courts to suspend the audience and start it again at a calmer and more tranquil moment.
GM:
Presidente—
GCM:
No, no, no! Interruptions are absolutely not allowed! Not between the parties, nor when the Court, the President is speaking. So, interruptions are not allowed. Now, the accused is speaking, and when she is finished, we can return to her answers—
GM:
Presidente.
GCM:
Excuse me, please! But at the moment she is speaking, we have to avoid interrupting her. But—I don’t know if this is what was wanted—but while you are speaking, if you could tell us when. For instance, you say you were doing homework, but you didn’t tell us when. We need to know when, on what day, the 2nd of November, the 3rd, what time it was. While you are talking, you need to be more detailed, as detailed as you can with respect to the date and the time.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
And we must avoid interruptions, but when you have finished, we can discuss your answer.
AK:
Thank you. So, here is…how I understood the question, I’m answering about what happened to me on the night of the 5th and the morning of the 6th of November 2007, and when we got to the Questura, I think it was around 10:30 or nearer 11, but I’m sorry, I don’t know the times very precisely, above all during that interrogation.
:
The more the confusion grew, the more I lost the sense of time. But I didn’t do my homework for a very long time. I was probably just reading the first paragraph of what I had to read, when these policemen came to sit near me, to ask me to help them by telling them who had ever entered in our house. So I told them, okay, well there was this girlfriend of mine and they said no no no, they only wanted to know about men. So I said okay, here are the names of the people I know, but really I don’t know, and they said, names of anyone you saw nearby, so I said, there are some people that are friends of the boys, or of the girls, whom I don’t know very well, and it went on like this, I kept on answering these questions, and finally at one point, while I was talking to them, they said “Okay, we’ll take you into this other room.” So I said okay and went with them, and they started asking me to talk about what I had been doing that evening. At least, they kept asking about the last time I saw Meredith, and then about everything that happened the next morning, and we had to repeat again and again everything about what I did. Okay, so I told them, but they always kept wanting times and schedules, and time segments: “What did you do between 7 and 8?” “And from 8 to 9? And from 9 to 10?” I said look, I can’t be this precise, I can tell you the flow of events, I played the guitar, I went to the house, I looked at my e-mails, I read a book, and I was going on like this. There were a lot people coming in and going out all the time, and there was one policeman always in front of me, who kept going on about this. Then at one point an interpreter arrived, and the interpreter kept on telling me, try to remember the times, try to remember the times, times, times, times, and I kept saying “I don’t know. I remember the movie, I remember the dinner, I remember what I ate,” and she kept saying “How can you you remember this thing but not that thing?” or “How can you not remember how you were dressed?” because I was thinking, I had jeans, but were they dark or light, I just can’t remember. And then she said “Well, someone is telling us that you were not at Raffaele’s house. Raffaele is saying that at these times you were not home.” And I said, but what is he saying, that I wasn’t there? I was there! Maybe I can’t say exactly what I was doing every second, every minute, because I didn’t look at the time. I know that I saw the movie, I ate dinner. And she would say “No no no, you saw the film at this time, and then after that time you went out of the house. You ate dinner with Raffaele, and then there is this time where you did nothing, and this time where you were out of the house.” And I said, no, that’s not how it was. I was always in Raffaele’s apartment.
GCM:
[taking advantage of a tiny pause to slip in without exactly interrupting] Excuse me, excuse me, the pubblico ministero wants to hear precise details about the suggestions about what to say, and also about the cuffs, who gave them to you.
AK:
All right. What it was, was a continuous crescendo of these discussions and arguments, because while I was discussing with them, in the end they started to little by little and then more and more these remarks about “We’re not convinced by you, because you seem to be able to remember one thing but not remember another thing. We don’t understand how you could take a shower without seeing…” And then, they kept on asking me “Are you sure of what you’re saying? Are you sure? Are you sure? If you’re not sure, we’ll take you in front of a judge, and you’ll go to prison, if you’re not telling the truth.” Then they told me this thing about how Raffaele was saying that I had gone out of the house. I said look, it’s impossible. I don’t know if he’s really saying that or not, but look, I didn’t go out of the house. And they said “No, you’re telling a lie. You’d better remember what you did for real, because otherwise you’re going to prison for 30 years because you’re a liar.” I said no, I’m not a liar. And they said “Are you sure you’re not protecting someone?” I said no, I’m not protecting anyone. And they said “We’re sure you’re protecting someone.” Who, who, who, who did you meet when you went out of Raffaele’s house?” I didn’t go out. “Yes, you did go out. Who were you with?” I don’t know. I didn’t do anything. “Why didn’t you go to work?” Because my boss told me I didn’t have to go to work. “Let’s see your telephone to see if you have that message.” Sure, take it. “All right.” So one policeman took it, and started looking in it, while the others kept on yelling “We know you met someone, somehow, but why did you meet someone?” But I kept saying no, no, I didn’t go out, I’m not pro-pro-pro—-
GCM:
[taking advantage of her stammer] Excuse me, okay, we understand that there was a continuous crescendo.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
As you said earlier. But if we could now get to the questions of the pubblico ministero, otherwise it will really be impossible to avoid some interruptions. If you want to be able to continue as tranquilly, as continuously as possible…
AK:
Okay, I’m sorry.
GCM:
So, if you could get to the questions about exactly when, exactly who… these suggestions, exactly what did they consist in? It seems to me…
AK:
Okay. Fine. So, they had my telephone, and at one point they said “Okay, we have this message that you sent to Patrick”, and I said I don’t think I did, and they yelled “Liar! Look! This is your telephone, and here’s your message saying you wanted to meet him!” And I didn’t even remember that I had written him a message. But okay, I must have done it. And they were saying that the message said I wanted to meet him. That was one thing. Then there was the fact that there was this interpreter next to me, and she was telling me “Okay, either you are an incredibly stupid liar, or you’re not able to remember anything you’ve done.” So I said, how could that be? And she said, “Maybe you saw something so tragic, so terrible that you can’t remember it. Because I had a terrible accident once where I broke my leg…”
GCM:
The interpreter said this to you?
AK:
The interpreter, yes.
GCM:
I also wanted to ask you because it isn’t clear to me: only the interpreter spoke to you, or the others also?
AK:
All the others also.
GCM:
Everyone was talking to you, all the others, but were they speaking in English?
AK:
No, in Italian.
GCM:
In Italian. And you answered in Italian?
AK:
In Italian, in English…
GCM:
And what was said to you in Italian, did it get translated to you in English?
AK:
A bit yes, a bit no, there was so much confusion, there were so many people all talking at the same time, one saying “Maybe it was like this, maybe you don’t remember,” another saying “No, she’s a stupid liar,” like that…
GCM:
But everything was eventually translated, or you understood some of it and answered right away?
AK:
It wasn’t like an interrogation, like what we’re doing now, where one person asks me a question and I answer. No. There were so many people talking, asking, waiting, and I answered a bit here and there.
GCM:
All right. You were telling us that the interpreter was telling you about something that had happened to her. [Interruption by Mignini.] But you need to get back to the questions asked by the pubblico ministero. This isn’t a spontaneous declaration now. This is an examination. That means the pubblico ministero has asked you a question, always the same question, and we still haven’t really heard the answer to it.
AK:
Yes, sorry.
GCM:
Right, so you were saying that there was this continuous crescendo.
AK:
It’s difficult for me to say that one specific person said one specific thing. It was the fact that there were all these little suggestions, and someone was saying that there was the telephone, then there was the fact that… then more than anything what made me try to imagine something was someone saying to me “Maybe you’re confused, maybe you’re confused and you should try to remember something different. Try to find these memories that obviously you have somehow lost. You have to try to remember them. So I was there thinking, but what could I have forgotten? And I was thinking, what have I forgotten? what have I forgotten? and they were shouting “Come on, come on, come on, remember, remember, remember,” and boom! on my head. [Amanda slaps herself on the back of the head: End of video segment] “Remember!” And I was like—Mamma Mia! and then boom! [slaps head again] “Remember!”
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, please, excuse me…
AK:
Those were the cuffs.

[Voices: “This is impossible!” “Avoid thinking aloud!” “Or suggestions”]
GCM:
So, the pubblico ministero asked you, and is still asking you, who is the person that gave you these two blows that you just showed us on yourself?
AK:
It was a policewoman, but I didn’t know their names.
GM:
Go ahead, pubblico ministero.
GM:
So, now, I asked you a question, and I did not get an answer. You ... [interruptions]!
LG or CDV:
I object to that remark! That is a personal evaluation! Presidente! That is very suggestive. He is making an unacceptable conclusion. He can ask a question, but this is a personal opinion. It seems to me that she did answer. She answered for a good five minutes.
GCM:
Sorry, but I said that we were supposed to avoid interruptions, that we weren’t supposed to interrupt when someone was speaking—
LG or CDV:
But—
GCM:
Wait—avvocato, excuse me, please, let’s try to avoid these moments which don’t help anybody and probably harm the person undergoing the examination because they create tension in the court—
GM:
When I am doing the cross-examination I would like—
GCM:
Please, pubblico ministero. This is another recommendation: let’s avoid analyses. Let’s take the answers as they come, later the right moment will come to say that from this examination, you did not obtain the answer that you expected, that the accused did not answer the questions. That is a later phase. At this moment, let’s stay with the answers that we have, even if they are not exhaustive, and return to the question, but avoiding personal evaluations of their value. Go ahead, publicco ministero, go ahead.
GM:
I would like to—
GCM:
Yes, yes, go ahead, return to your question. And then you can come back to it with more details.
GM:
The central point of that interrogation was the moment when the name of Patrick emerged. You spoke of suggestions, you spoke of pressure, you spoke of being hit, I asked you to give me a precise description of who gave you the blows, you need to describe this person. Was it a woman or a man? Who asked you the questions? Who was asking you the questions? There was the interpreter, who was the person who was translating. But the exam, the interrogation, who was doing it? Apart from the people who were going in and out. You must have understood that there was a murder, and this was a police station, and the investigation was hot, and what I am asking you is, who was actually conducting the interrogation?
GCM:
The pubblico ministero is asking you, you said that the two blows were given to me by someone whose name I don’t know. The pubblico ministero is asking you firstly if you can give a description of the person who hit you, if you saw her, and if you can give us a description. The second question—
AK:
So, when I—the person who was conducting the interrogation—
GCM:
That was the second question! You’re starting with the second question, that’s fine, go ahead, go ahead.
AK:
Oh, sorry…
GCM:
Go on, go on. The person who was conducting the interrogation…
AK:
Well, there were lots and lots of people who were asking me questions, but the person who had started talking with me was a policewoman with long hair, chestnut brown hair, but I don’t know her. Then in the circle of people who were around me, certain people asked me questions, for example there was a man who was holding my telephone, and who was literally shoving the telephone into my face, shouting “Look at this telephone! Who is this? Who did you want to meet?” Then there were others, for instance this woman who was leading, was the same person who at one point was standing behind me, because they kept moving, they were really surrounding me and on top of me. I was on a chair, then the interpreter was also sitting on a chair, and everyone else was standing around me, so I didn’t see who gave me the first blow because it was someone behind me, but then I turned around and saw that woman, and she gave me another blow to the head.
GCM:
This was the same woman with the long hair?
AK:
Yes, the same one.
GCM:
All right. Are you finished? Tell me if you have something to add.
AK:
Well, I already answered.
GCM:
Fine, fine, all right. Go ahead, pubblico ministero.
GM:
I’ll go on with the questions. In the minutes it mentions three people, plus the interpreter. Now, you first said that they suggested things to you. What exactly do you mean by the word “suggestion”, because from your description, I don’t see any suggestion. I mean, what is meant by the Italian word “suggerimento”, I don’t find it.

[Interruptions]
GCM:
[quelling them] Excuse me, excuse me, please, please, excuse me, excuse me! Listen, the pubblico ministero is asking you: “suggestions”, you also mentioned words that were “put in your mouth”, versions, things to say, circumstances to describe.

[Start of 15:22 minute video segment] The pubblico ministero is asking two things: who made the suggestions, and what exactly were you told to say? }}
AK:
All right. It seems to me that the thoughts of the people standing around me, there were so many people, and they suggested things to me in the sense that they would ask questions like: “Okay, you met someone!” No, I didn’t. They would say “Yes you did, because we have this telephone here, that says that you wanted to meet someone. You wanted to meet him.” No, I don’t remember that. “Well, you’d better remember, because if not we’ll put you in prison for 30 years.” But I don’t remember! “Maybe it was him that you met? Or him? You can’t remember?” It was this kind of suggestion.
GCM:
When you say they said “Maybe you met him?”, did they specify names?
AK:
Well, the important fact was this message to Patrick, they were very excited about it. So they wanted to know if I had received a message from him—

[Interruptions]
GCM:
Please, please!

[Interruptions, multiple voices]
CDV:
It’s not possible to go on this way! [Mignini yells something at dalla Vedova]
GCM:
Please, please, excuse me, excuse me!
??:
I’m going to ask to suspend the audience! I demand a suspension of five minutes!
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me! Please!
CDV:
Viva Dio, Presidente!
GM:
Presidente, I’m trying to do a cross-examination, and I must have the conditions that allow me to do it! The defense keeps interrupting.
??:
That’s true!
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, please—
GM:
We’re asking for a suspension!
GCM:
Just a moment, excuse me. I’ve heard all the demands and suggestions, now the Court will decide. So.

[Several moments of silence, during which Amanda murmurs in a very tiny voice: “Scusa.”]
GCM:
I want to point out that the accused offers answers to every question. She could always refuse to respond. She is answering, and that doesn’t mean she has to be asked about the same circumstances again and again. She is not a witness. The accused goes under different rules. We have to accept the answers—
??:
But—
GCM:
Please, please! We have to accept the answers given by the accused. She can stop answering at any time. At some point we simply have to move on to different questions. One circumstance is being asked again, the accused answered. The regularly, the tranquillity, the rituality of the court, of the process, has to be respected. The pubblico ministero was asking about suggestions. [To Amanda] If you want a suspension we can do it right away.
AK:
No, I’m fine.
GCM:
So the pubblico ministero was asking about the suggestions. All right?
AK:
Sure.
GCM:
So, you were the one who gave the first indication, introducing this generic pronoun “him”? This “him”, did they say who it could be?
AK:
It was because of the fact that they were saying that I apparently had met someone and they said this because of the message, and they were saying “Are you sure you don’t remember meeting THIS person, because you wrote this message.”
GCM:
In this message, was there the name of the person it was meant for?
AK:
No, it was the message I wrote to my boss. The one that said “Va bene. Ci vediamo piu tardi. Buona serata.”
GCM:
But it could have been a message to anyone. Could you see from the message to whom it was written?
AK:
Actually, I don’t know if that information is in the telephone. But I told them that I had received a message from Patrick, and they looked for it in the telephone, but they couldn’t find it, but they found the one I sent to him.
GCM:
I also wanted to ask you for the pubblico ministero, you wrote this message in Italian. I wanted to ask you, since you are an English speaker, what do you do when you wrote in Italian? Do you first think in English, and then translate into Italian, or do you manage to think directly in Italian?
AK:
No, at that time, I first thought in English, then I would translate, and then write.
GCM:
So that clarifies that phrase. Go ahead, pubblico ministero, but I think we’ve exhausted the question.
GM:
Yes, yes. I just wanted one concept to be clear: that in the Italian language, “suggerire” means “indicate”, someone who “suggests” a name actually says the name and the other person adopts it. That is what “suggerimento” is, and I…so my question is, did the police first pronounce the name of Patrick, or was it you? And was it pronounced after having seen the message in the phone, or just like that, before that message was seen?
??:
Objection! Objection!
GM:
On page 95, I read—
CDV:
Before the objection, what was the question?
GM:
The question was: the question that was objected was about the term “suggerimento”. Because I interpret that word this way: the police say “Was it Patrick?” and she confirms that it was Patrick. This is suggestion in the Italian language.
GCM:
Excuse me, please, excuse me. Let’s return to the accused. What was the suggestion, because I thought I had understood that the suggestion consisted in the fact that Patrick Lumumba, to whom the message was addressed, had been identified, they talked about “him, him, him”. In what terms exactly did they talk about this “him”? What did they say to you?
AK:
So, there was this thing that they wanted a name. And the message—
GCM:
You mean, they wanted a name relative to what?
AK:
To the person I had written to, precisely. And they told me that I knew, and that I didn’t want to tell. And that I didn’t want to tell because I didn’t remember or because I was a stupid liar. Then they kept on about this message, that they were literally shoving in my face saying “Look what a stupid liar you are, you don’t even remember this!” At first, I didn’t even remember writing that message. But there was this interpreter next to me who kept saying “Maybe you don’t remember, maybe you don’t remember, but try,” and other people were saying “Try, try, try to remember that you met someone, and I was there hearing “Remember, remember, remember,” and then there was this person behind me who—it’s not that she actually really physically hurt me, but she frightened me…
GCM:
“Remember!” is not a suggestion. It is a strong solicitation of your memory. Suggestion is rather…
AK:
But it was always “Remember” following this same idea, that…
GCM:
But they didn’t literally say that it was him!
AK:
No. They didn’t say it was him, but they said “We know who it is, we know who it is. You were with him, you met him.”
GCM:
So, these were the suggestions.
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Go ahead, pubblico ministero.
GM:
I object here on the dynamics, because here there’s a contrast…well… per carita—[Brief interruption from GCM]—From Amanda’s answer, it emerges that there was this cell phone and this message and this “Answer, answer,” whereas in the minutes of the Dec 17 interrogation, page 95, we find: The police could not have suggested—[Arguing, everyone speaking, Maresca, Pacelli etc., some saying that they need to know the exact page, it’s different in their version. ]
GCM:
While the pubblico ministero is talking, let’s avoid interrupting him. It’s true that the pages are different, but still, if you can’t find the page, ask for a moment’s pause, don’t interrupt the reading.
GM:
So, on line number one, two, three, four…
GCM:
Pubblico ministero, don’t worry about the lines, please read.
GM:
[reading] She said: “I accused Patrick and no one else because they were continually talking about Patrick.” Suggesting, to use Amanda’s words. I asked: “The police, the police could not suggest? And the interpreter, was she shouting the name of Patrick? Sorry, but what was the police saying?” Knox: “The police were saying, ‘We know that you were in the house. We know you were in the house.’ And one moment before I said Patrick’s name, someone was showing me the message I had sent him.” This is the objection. There is a precise moment. The police were showing her the message, they didn’t know who it was—
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me pubblico ministero [talking at the same time] excuse me, excuse me, the objection consists in the following: [to Amanda], when there are contrasts or a lack of coincidence with previous statements, be careful to explain them.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
Do you confirm the declarations that the pubblico ministero read out?
AK:
I explained it better now.
GCM:
You explained it better now. All right pubblico ministero. Go ahead.
GM:
So, let’s move forward.
AK:
Okay.
GM:
Now, what happened next? You, confronted with the message, gave the name of Patrick. What did you say?
AK:
Well, first I started to cry. And all the policemen, together, started saying to me, you have to tell us why, what happened? They wanted all these details that I couldn’t tell them, because in the end, what happened was this: when I said the name of “Patrick”, I suddenly started imagining a kind of scene, but always using this idea: images that didn’t agree, that maybe could give some kind of explanation of the situation. I saw Patrick’s face, then Piazza Grimana, then my house, then something green that they told me might be the sofa. Then, following this, they wanted details, they wanted to know everything I had done. But I didn’t know how to say. So they started talking to me, saying, “Okay, so you went out of the house, okay, fine, so you met Patrick, where did you meet Patrick?” I don’t know, maybe in Piazza Grimana, maybe near it. Because I had this image of Piazza Grimana. “Okay, fine, so you went with him to your house. Okay, fine. How did you open the door?” Well, with my key. “So you opened the house”. Okay, yes. “And what did you do then?” I don’t know. “But was she already there?” I don’t know. “Did she arrive or was she already there?” Okay. “Who was there with you?” I don’t know. “Was it just Patrick, or was Raffaele there too?” I don’t know. It was the same when the pubblico ministero came, because he asked me: “Excuse me, I don’t understand. Did you hear the sound of a scream?” No. “But how could you not have heard the scream?”. I don’t know, maybe my ears were covered. I kept on and on saying I don’t know, maybe, imagining…

[End of video segment]
GCM:
[Stopping her gently] Okay, okay. Go ahead, pubblico ministero.
CDV?:
I’d like to ask a question, I’d like to make an objection about—
GCM?:
All right, so—
GM:
Is it a question or an objection? [crossing, arguing voices]
GCM:
Please, no interruptions.
CDV?:
[stronger] I said, I am asking a question and making an objection—
GCM:
But, excuse me, let’s stay with essentials. Let’s hear what the pubblico ministero has to say, and then we’ll see. That’s a premise.
GM:
I appeal to the court that this is making the examination impossible.
GCM:
Please, please, sorry. Go ahead.
GM:
I am trying to understand. In the interro—[he breaks off in mid-word, I think dalla Vedova must have stood up again.]
GCM:
But it’s not possible to hinder things this way, avvocato. Excuse me. Why?
CDV?:
[hard to hear because he’s speaking at the same time as GCM] The defense would like to formally ask for a break [?]
GCM:
We haven’t even heard what he is trying to say yet. You can’t make preventive objections! I’m sorry, avvocato.
CDV?:
I’m not making an objection—
GCM:
[really trying to stop him but not succeeding, CDV goes on talking at the same time] Please, please avvocato, no no no no, the pubblico ministero is speaking. [GM also says some words] Excuse me, excuse me.
CDV?:
The suggestions of the PM before asking the question are inopportune, because he is suggesting and making suggestive…
GCM:
Please, please, excuse me, excuse me! [He really, really needs a gavel to bang!]
GM:
[some words]
GCM:
Please, pubblico ministero! We are creating useless moments—
GM:
[some words]
GCM:
[much louder] Please, pubblico ministero! Please! Now, excuse me.
GM or CDV:
Please explain this concept to me.
GCM:
Please, please! [He finally obtains silence] I understand that when these interruption happens, the tone gets a bit louder, but that is not helpful. [Interruption] Please, please—but we are getting the impression that the objections are preventive. So while the pubblico ministero is speaking, which he has every right to do in this phase, and the defense already had their chance to do it, and they weren’t interrupted yesterday, so we ask for equal treatment today, at the present moment of the examination of the accused. And the tone should always remain cordial without giving the impression of a—
CDV:
Yes, yes, no, no. But it’s just that, I am asking that—
GCM:
Please, avvocato. There’s no reason. We are trying to reconcile the interests of all parties, we are gathering circumstances on which the different parties are called to make analyses and the Court to decide. This will be helpful for everyone. Go ahead.
GM:
The question is this: You say, you just told me a little while ago, that… the police—I’m trying to—well, I have to give a little introduction so she understands my question. You said “they found this message and they asked me whom it was to, if it was true or not true.” And you answered. Then the police obviously goes forward with their questions. “So, tell us”. And you…you just told me, I can’t read it, obviously I don’t have the transcription right here, but, I might be making a mistake, I don’t know, but you were saying that you remembered Piazza Grimana. Did you really say that?
AK:
Yes.
GCM:
Please, please, excuse me, there, now what the accused is saying is: “On the basis of these elements, I tried to reconstruct a scene that could be verified.” In these terms, not because she… She mentally elaborated, with her imagination: this is what I understood, how the scene could be realized, containing those elements that had come up.
AK:
Certainly.
GCM:
But she wasn’t speaking of an effective memory of circumstances that had effectively occurred in her perception. That is the meaning of the response of the accused.
AK:
Certo.
GM:
But you said that you remembered Piazza Grimana.
AK:
I had an image of Piazza Grimana.
GM:
An image of Piazza Grimana, that’s right. Now listen, in the interrogation, page 95, the same interrogation, but the same expression turns up in other places, I can give references if necessary…

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Posted on 10/16/17 at 12:31 AM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Sunday, October 15, 2017

Netflixhoax 21(e) Omitted - Knox Questioning By Dr Mignini At Trial (Cont)

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters

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GM:
An image of Piazza Grimana, that’s right. Now listen, in the interrogation, page 95, the same interrogation, but the same expression turns up in other places, I can give references if necessary…

[Start of 6:54 minute video segment] ...I asked this question: Why did you throw out an accusation of this type? In the confrontations with Mr. Lumumba (I was continuing and you answered right away): “I was trying, I had the possibility of explaining the message in my phone. He had told me not to come to work.” Perfectly normal things. So, faced with a perfectly normal circumstance, “My boss texted me to tell me not to come to work and I answered him,” you could have just stated that. End of response. Instead, faced with the message, and the questions of the police, you threw out this accusation. So I am asking you, why start accusing him when you could calmly explain the exchange of messages? Why did you think those things could be true? }}
AK:
I was confused.
GM:
You have repeated that many times. But what does it mean? Either something is true, or it isn’t true. Right now, for instance, you’re here at the audience, you couldn’t be somewhere else. You couldn’t say “I am at the station.” You are right here, right now.
AK:
Certainly. [Some noise]
GCM:
The question is clear.
AK:
Can I answer?
GCM:
[quelling noise] Excuse me, excuse me! Please, go ahead.
AK:
My confusion was because firstly, I couldn’t understand why the police was treating me this way, and then because when I explained that I had spent the whole time with Raffaele, they said “No, you’re a liar”. It was always this thing that either I didn’t remember or I was lying. The fact that I kept on and on repeating my story and they kept saying “No, you’re going to prison right now if you don’t tell the truth,” and I said “But I’ve told the truth,” “No, you’re a liar, now you’re going to prison for 30 years because either you’re a stupid liar or you forgot. And if it’s because you forgot, then you’d better remember what happened for real, right now.” This is why I was confused. Because I didn’t understand. I didn’t understand why. I didn’t understand anything any more. I was so scared and impressed by all this that at some point I thought What the heck, maybe they’re right, maybe I forgot.
GM:
So, and then, you accused Lumumba of murder. This is the conclusion.

[Some noise]
GCM:
Please, go on with the questions.
GM:
So, I wanted to know something else. At what time did the water leak in Sollecito’s house?
AK:
After dinner, I don’t know what time it was.
GM:
Towards 21, 21:30?
AK:
21, that’s 9? No, it was much later than that.
GM:
A bit later? How much?
AK:
We had dinner around…10:30, so that must have happened a bit later than that. Maybe around 11 [slow voice as though thinking it out, lots of ‘I don’t really know’ gestures].
GM:
And then, the next morning, at what time did you go to Sollecito’s house to clean up the water? Was the water still on the floor?
AK:
There still was a bit, there still was a bit of water on the ground, but not too much to clean up.
GM:
From 23:00 onwards, at what time did you go to his house to clean up the water?
AK:
Twenty-three…okay. The next morning, I didn’t look at the clock, but I went to my house around 10:30. And then I went back, it must have been before midday.
GM:
What day are we talking about?
AK:
We’re still talking about Nov 2.
GM:
November 2.
AK:
In the morning. I think it was maybe around 11:30? Just by reasoning, but I didn’t look at the clock.
GM:
Listen, on the morning of Nov 2, you went to your house, and you saw the traces of blood in the little bathroom.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
The traces of blood on the bathmat.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
When was the last time you had been in that bathroom?
AK:
Me?
GM:
Yes.
AK:
I must have…well, before the 2nd, I must have gone in there at least once when I came home on Nov 1st.
GM:
Excuse me, but what time did you leave the house in via della Pergola on Nov 1?
AK:
Around…4 o’clock, maybe? I don’t look at the clock. But I know it must have been 4 or 5 o’clock when we left the house on Nov 1.
GM:
And you were in the little bathroom before leaving the house?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
Now, the last time you were in the little bathroom, before leaving the house, it might have been more or less around 4 o’clock?
AK:
Around then, yes.
GM:
All right. You knew that Filomena wasn’t home?
AK:
I knew that she had gone to a party that afternoon.
GM:
A party. Fine. And Mezzetti?
AK:
Laura, you know, I didn’t know where she was. I knew she wasn’t in the house when I was there, but I didn’t really know where she was.
GM:
When you saw the bathroom for the last time, were there traces of blood in it?
AK:
No.
GM:
All right. Now, let’s get to the moment when Meredith’s door was broken down—
AK:
Okay—
GM:
We can go backwards later. Did you see Meredith’s room?
AK:
No.
GM:
Did you get a glimpse?
AK:
No.
GM:
Where were you?
AK:
I was near the entrance, in the living room.
GM:
Sollecito was with you?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
So he didn’t see either.
AK:
He didn’t either.
[End video segment]
GM:
From what Frost, Meredith’s friend, said, and the others, we heard that you, or Sollecito, claimed to have seen the body in the closet, covered with a sheet, and nothing could be seen but a foot. Now if you hadn’t seen the room, and Raffaele hadn’t seen it either, how could you make this observation? How could you—I’m asking another question—and how could this closet contain Meredith’s body? You know the closet, right? I have a black and white photo of it here. Here. This closet.
AK:
All right. Firstly, I think Frost made a little mistake, because I never said that I saw Meredith’s body in the closet. I said that I had heard people around me saying that there was a body in the closet, that was covered, with a foot sticking out. I too was confused by this, but that’s what I heard. But when people kept on asking me what happened, what they had found, I answered what I had heard.
GM:
Or what Raffaele told you.
AK:
Raffaele, or the people he was asking for me.
GM:
Why do you say, or rather, it’s the lawyer who says, he was speaking for you right then: “She confirmed that Raffaele heard from other people that maybe this was the version.” Page 78 of my… Do you remember this? And also page 79.
AK:
Do I remember that interrogation?
GM:
Yes.
AK:
I remember the fact that Raffaele was asking the people around us what they had seen.
GM:
Look, on page 79 you say: “I understand, I understand. He said precisely: ‘Apparently there’s a girl, there’s the body of a girl in the closet, but the only thing you can see is her foot.’ ” You say that Raffaele said this.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
You confirm it.
AK:
I confirm that as we understood from the people around us, there was this fact about the closet, a body in the closet.
GM:
But it’s Raffaele who said it to you, not the people around.
AK:
But—
GM:
You said that the people around you told it to him.
AK:
Raffaele was the person who was helping me to understand what they were saying. He spoke to me, explaining everything that was happening, because in the end, I was in shock and also I didn’t understand.
GM:
So, who were these people who said this to Raffaele?
AK:
We were all asking each other, because there was Filomena’s friend, who had maybe obviously heard it from the police, but it’s not like a followed exactly where the information was coming from. Everyone was talking. Everyone was giving explanations and versions and information, and I kept turning to Raffaele because at least he understood the language. I didn’t even understand…
GM:
Raffaele didn’t tell you who told him?
AK:
No, but he was explaining to me above all what I asked him: what happened, what was in the room, those things.
GM:
I’m asking you, but if you don’t know, just tell me: did he say to you “Filomena told me” or “such-and-such told me”, Altieri, the tall girl, the others that were there that saw into the room. There was no girl in the closet. Did he tell you who told him that? That there was a girl inside the closet?
AK:
No, he didn’t tell me who said that. It was the people around.
GCM:
Okay, okay. She already answered. All right pubblico ministero, go ahead.
GM:
I wanted to spend a moment on one last question, maybe the last but I don’t know, about the morning of the 6th.
AK:
Okay.
GM:
There’s another thing I didn’t understand. You said pressure was put on you, and there were suggestions, you explained today exactly what those consisted in, to say the name of Patrick and to accuse Patrick. Then you wrote a memorandum in which you confirm everything. And you weren’t under pressure right then. Why didn’t you just say: “I falsely accused someone.” Someone who was in prison, who was put in prison, maybe for a long time. Can you explain this to me?
AK:
Certo.
CDV?:
Can I make an objection? Very, very calmly and without animosity?
GCM:
Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you [for the calm, no doubt]. Thank you.
CDV?:
It seems to me that the pubblico ministero, in presenting his questions, always makes references which go as far as actually suggesting the answers, and also—
GM:
Well it is a cross-examination.
GCM:
Please, please let’s avoid interruptions and let each person express what he has to say. Go ahead, avvocato.
CDV?:
In the question he just asked, he mentions the memorandum and says it confirms. Now, this might be a specific question, but it should not be an assertion on the part of the pubblico ministero, followed by another question. If we look in the minutes, we find a series of unilateral declarations which all go to show what interests the pubblico ministero. To my mind, this mentality goes against our way of examining the accused. I just want to make this clear.
GCM:
All right, taking into account these remarks, the pubblico ministero’s question remains. It could be rephrased like this: during the 5th and the 6th, you said there were pressures, and the name of Patrick Lumumba emerged as also being involved in these events. But as the pubblico ministero notes, you then you wrote the memorandum spontaneously. We heard that you yourself asked for paper to be able to write it.
AK:
Certainly.
GCM:
And writing with this liberty, you even referred to it as a gift, these elements which had already emerged, you reasserted them, and this involvement of Patrick Lumumba. What the pubblico ministero is asking is: how did you—this question was already asked yesterday—in these different circumstances, you weren’t in the room any more, there wasn’t any pressure, why didn’t the truth somehow get stabilized?
AK:
Yes, yes. In fact, what happened is that I had literally been led to believe that somehow, I had forgotten something real, and so with this idea that I must have forgotten, I was practically convinced myself that I really had forgotten. And these images, that I was actually forcing myself to imagine, were really lost memories. So, I wasn’t sure if those images were reality or not, but explaining this to the police, they didn’t want to listen to the fact that I wasn’t sure. They treated me as though I had now remembered everything and everything was fine and I could now make a declaration in the tribunal against someone, to accuse someone. I didn’t feel sure about that. I didn’t feel—
GCM:
Excuse me, but in the memorandum, do you remember what you wrote about Patrick? Because maybe it wasn’t precise…
GM:
[Interrupting] I want—I want—I want to contest this point. Two points in the memorandum. If I’m not mistaken, you weren’t a witness right then. You had been the object of an arrest warrant. You had been arrested. You know the difference between a suspect and a witness. You weren’t a witness. Not any longer. So in the memorandum—
CDV?:
One moment—[hard to hear] Does she know the difference?
GM:
Can I continue? Sorry, avvocato, but I’m asking questions! Can I continue? He’s continually—
GCM:
Sorry, sorry, go ahead.
GM:
This is impossible!
GCM:
Please, pubblico ministero, go ahead, go ahead.
GM:
I am interrogating. I am interrogating. Now I’m distracted. Now, the difference between a suspect and a witness—a person informed of the facts. You said: “I made these declarations so that I could leave, so I could be—” but instead, you were arrested. And you wrote the memorandum after you had been arrested. And you wrote two sentences: I’ll read them. “I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that events that could have taken place in my home with Patrick.” [In Italian: “I confirm…”] Do you know what the word “confirm” means in Italian? “In the flashbacks that I’m having, I see Patrick as the murderer.” There wasn’t any policeman with you when you wrote that. No one. You wrote that in complete liberty. Do you know how to explain to me why? And this is even more decisive than what you said some hours earlier. Can you explain this?
AK:
I couldn’t even explain to myself why I had these images in my head, because I didn’t know if they were memories or not. And I want to say that if I made these declarations, that they asked me to sign and everything, I did it, but I wanted in the memorandum to explain my doubt, this fact that I wasn’t sure about it, because no one ever wanted to listen when I said listen, I don’t know.
GCM?:
Effectively the memorandum was correcting what had been said, and these doubts arose.
GM:
Do you have lapses of memory? At that time did you ever have lapses of memory?
AK:
Did I have what?
GM:
Lapses of memory.
AK:
Oh, lapses of memory.
GM:
Lapses of memory. Moments where you couldn’t remember things that you had done. “What did I do yesterday? I don’t know.”
AK:
[Laughing] I’ve had that problem all my life.
GM:
What?
AK:
I’ve had that problem all my life. I can’t remember where I put my keys.
GM:
So it happened to you at other times? Explain it to me. You previously mixed up things, didn’t know whether you had dreamed things or they were real?
AK:
No, not that part about the imagination! I would forget for example what I ate yesterday for dinner, yes, that happened to me, but not to actually imagine things.
GM:
To imagine something that hadn’t really happened, that never happened to you.
AK:
No. I never had that problem, but then, I had never been interrogated like that before.
GM:
Okay, so when you had this flashback, you saw Patrick as the murderer. What was this flashback?
AK:
The flashback consisted in this image of Patrick’s actual face, not that I imagined an actual act, I imagined his face. Then I had this image of Piazza Grimana, then an image of Patrick’s face, then I always had this idea that they wanted to say: these images explain the fact that you met him, and you brought him home, and maybe you heard something and covered your ears, and it was always like this, not that I actually imagined having seen Meredith’s death. It was these images that came by themselves, to explain…
GM:
I see. All right. I take note of what you’re saying. Now, let’s talk about your memorandum from the 7th, still written in total autonomy, without anyone around you. You wrote: “I didn’t lie when I said that I thought the murderer was Patrick. At that moment I was very stressed and I really did think that it was Patrick.” Then you add “But now I know that I can’t know who the murderer is, because I remember that I didn’t go home.” Can you explain these concept to me?
AK:
Yes, because I was convinced that I somehow could have forgotten. So in that moment, I—
GM:
So what you had said might have actually been true?
AK:
Yes.
AK:
Yes, it could have been true, but at that moment. But then, when I was able to rethink the facts, it became clearer and clearer that it didn’t make sense, that it was absolutely ridiculous that I could have thought that or imagined it.
GM:
But didn’t you feel the need to intervene to get an innocent person out of prison? You didn’t feel the need?
AK:
But the police had already called me a liar, and I didn’t feel they were listening to me. Also because in the Questura—
GM:
But you were in prison!
AK:
But in the Questura, I had already told them: Look, I’m not sure about this, and they didn’t want to hear that. They didn’t want to listen, because they said to me “No, you’ll remember it later. You just need a little time to really remember these facts.” I told them no, I don’t think it’s like that, but they didn’t want to listen.
GM:
They didn’t believe you. But you, once you said that you remembered, [snaps fingers?] you could have just made a declaration or sent me another memorandum saying “No, I didn’t say the truth. Patrick is innocent.”
GCM:
Excuse me, we already had explanations about this.
GM:
All right, I have another question.
GCM:
Please, go ahead.
GM:
I have another question. You had a 250 dollar fine from the court in Seattle.
AK:
What? Oh, yes, yes.
GM:
Can you explain this event? What was the motive?
AK:
In Seattle, I lived with four friends of mine in a house. When our lease ended, we wanted to have a party to celebrate the end of our time living together and also just the end of the year. So, we had a party. At the party there was a band, one of my friends played in it. So there was a band, and they made such a tremendous racket that the neighbors called the police to come and stop the noise. Since I was the person in the best state to talk to the police right then, I went out of the house and took responsibility for the noise. So I got the fine, and everybody helped me pay it.
GM:
Do you know about the article that appeared on “Mail Online”, by [name?], on Dec 3 2007, which refers to the event—I ask for the acquisition of this article—in which the episode is described with many details. There is also a translation into Italian. I would like to ask for the translation of this article. [Intervention: “This will be made available to all parties.” A fairly long pause.]
GCM:
Excuse me. Is there actually a question?
GM:
It talks about incredibly loud music, drugs, alcohol and throwing rocks into the street.
GCM:
Could you please ask actual questions?
GM:
Yes. Do you remember this episode?
GCM:
Excuse me. The pubblico ministero is asking—you described this episode in the terms we just heard. But the pubblico ministero is asking whether there was use of alcohol and drugs on that occasion, or whether it was just a question of too much noise making a disturbance?”
AK:
So in fact—
GM:
And other things. In the article there’s also—
GCM:
The Court doesn’t know anything about this. Excuse me, please. All right, let’s say “And other things?”
GM:
There is a report by police officer Bender.
GCM:
Oh, all right. Okay, okay. Let’s just make specific and precise questions. [Noise] Excuse me, excuse me. Please, please. You just briefly sketched the episode. The pubblico ministero is asking for details. For instance, about the use of drugs and the alcohol.
AK:
So, there was alcohol at this party; we had beer. I didn’t know anything about drugs because I was inside the house.
GM:
So you don’t know about drugs.
AK:
Right. I don’t know about drugs at the party, but there was beer for sure.
GCM:
Anything else? Beer, and anything else?
AK:
And noise.
GM:
I can ask other questions on this point. It’s been mentioned that there were naked people around. And rocks getting thrown at windows and into the street, so much that it was blocking the traffic—
CDV?:
Excuse me, excuse me! That was the article, but it could say things that aren’t true.
GCM:
Excuse me, excuse me, please! It has been requested that this document be produced and placed at the disposal of all parties. Then the Court will see. If there are other questions—
GM:
Is it true what this article says?
AK:
[Laughing] No. No.
GCM:
But do you have specific questions?
GM:
What is the significance of this sum of 269 dollars?
GCM:
She said it, it’s a ticket. A fine. Payment of a sum.
GM:
But penal?
AK:
It’s like when you park your car in a forbidden place and you have to pay a fine. It’s the same thing.
GCM:
All right, all right. She represented the facts and she represented their consequences. We don’t have to give the administrative or penal analysis now.
GM:
Now, let’s get to the episode of the 23rd.
AK:
Twenty-third?
GM:
The twenty-third. We have the Italian translation. The 23rd of November…no, the 23rd…the audition of the assistant Gioia Broci and someone else from the 23rd of last April, in which she made reference to the survey or visit to the via della Pergola on November 4.
AK:
Okay.
GM:
She says that while you were looking at the silverware—
AK:
The what?
GM:
The knives… You started to tremble and cry and covered your ears with your hands. Suddenly. Can you explain why?
AK:
As I said…
GCM:
Tell him if the episode is true, if it happened, how and why.
AK:
All right. The fact that I cried in the house when I saw the knives is true. I cried, because when I entered the house, I had to look around to see if anything was missing that could have been used to kill someone, it made a strong impression on me. It was as if all that time, I hadn’t been able to even accept the fact that she was really killed, Meredith, and then having to actually be inside the house, looking at knives, being actually there, it was as though the people around me…I was there, and they were asking me to look if there were any knives missing. I said “Okay”, but the situation was so heavy, I don’t know, it really hit me.
GM:
So when you looked at the knives, you felt disturbed.
AK:
Yes, I was disturbed, it made such an impression on me.
GM:
Okay. Okay. Listen, another question. The lamp that was found in Meredith’s room, a black lamp with a red button, that was found in Meredith’s room, at the foot of the bed. Was it yours?
AK:
I did have a lamp with a red button in my room, yes.
GM:
So the lamp was yours.
AK:
I suppose it was.
GM:
Was it missing from your room?
AK:
You know, I didn’t look.
GM:
Did Meredith have a lamp like that in her room?
AK:
I don’t know.
GM:
Hm. All right. Listen, when did you know that the boys from the downstairs apartment were all leaving for the long weekend?
AK:
I had kind of heard that they wanted to celebrate Halloween somehow or other, but I didn’t understand or didn’t know where they were going and how long they were going to be away. It’s always because when everyone was talking together, us and the boys from downstairs, I didn’t really understand very well, I didn’t get a really clear sense of what was happening.
GM:
But you know that November 2nd, unless I’m mistaken, was a Friday. No?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
So then there was Saturday and Sunday; you knew that those days were a holiday here, didn’t you? The 1st and the 2nd.
AK:
Yes, I wanted to go to Gubbio.
GM:
Right. But what you just said about Halloween, you must have heard that on October 31, no? In the morning?
AK:
I don’t know exactly when I heard it.
GM:
But you knew they were going away, the boys.
AK:
I knew they were going to do something to celebrate Halloween together, at least that’s what I understood.
GM:
Hm. Now, how is it that you went downstairs to see if they were home, on the morning of the 2nd?
AK:
I didn’t know whether they were home, or not. We wanted to go down and ask them if they had heard anything.
GM:
Hm.
AK:
So I went there, I knocked…
GM:
And nobody had told you that they had all gone to their respective homes, rather far from Perugia?
AK:
If they said that, then I didn’t understand it, because really I thought that they were just talking about Halloween.
GM:
Now, on the evening of November 1, do you remember if Raffaele received any phone calls while you were at his house?
AK:
At Halloween?
GM:
The evening of the 1st.
AK:
Ah, the evening of the 1st. I don’t remember.
GM:
You don’t remember. So. Listen, another question. Do you remember, on the morning of the 2nd, if Raffaele tried to break down the door of the room?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
How then, when later Romanelli arrived, you said that it was normal for Meredith to lock her door. Yet you tried to break it down. Can you explain this?
AK:
Certainly. When the police came they asked, at least they asked Filomena, if that door was ever locked, and she said “No no no no, it’s never, never locked.” I said “No, that’s not true that it’s really never locked,” because sometimes it actually was locked. But for me, it was strange that it was locked and she wasn’t answering, so for me it was strange, but I wanted to explain that it wasn’t impossible, that she did lock her door now and then.
GM:
But usually, you remember her door being open.
AK:
Yes it was usually open or at least…yes.
GM:
But on that morning, I understand that you were said to have stated that Meredith always locked her door. And that it was normal.
AK:
I never said it was always locked. It’s just that they didn’t understand. I just wanted to explain that it was not always open.
GM:
I see, you didn’t explain properly.
GCM:
The pubblico ministero is asking you: okay, you say it was not always open, not always closed, but it was a circumstance which didn’t particularly alarm you, so much so that you even said this to Romanelli.
AK:
Yes, because Filomena was answering like that—
GCM:
Okay, okay, but it sounds like the locked door didn’t alarm you, whereas in fact Raffaele Sollecito had already tried to break down the door. So?
AK:
Well, I was worried because she wasn’t answering. The fact that the door was locked wouldn’t have alarmed me if, say, she had answered, but the fact that she didn’t answer when we called her made us think: maybe she’s in there and she isn’t well or something.
GCM:
Yes, but per carita, still on this circumstance. A door is locked, locked, why should I think there is someone inside who isn’t answering me? I could just calmly think that nobody is there—
AK:
Also that. But we weren’t sure. Sorry—
GCM:
—and if she’s not home, why should I be worried? Enough to ruin the door by breaking it down? Why should I think that there is someone there who is not answering me? The simplest answer is that she left, locked the door and left. She’s not answering, why call her? The door is locked, she’s not there.
AK:
I know. But the fact that there were all these strange things in the house—
GCM:
No, excuse me. Per carita. After this, the other party will continue the examination. I want to say: you find the main door open, you can think that she left and forgot to close it, but she locked her own door. Why should you be so worried that you try to break down her door? I think this is what the pubblico ministero is asking. There. If you could explain why you were so worried in relation to your knowledge. Your motive for trying to break down the door.
AK:
Yes. I was worried that somehow she was inside and had hurt herself, because there were so many strange things in the house, and so I didn’t know what to think. But at the same time, she could have been inside or not, but I wanted to be sure, because if she had hurt herself in some way, or if someone was in there, or if she went out because there was something in there, I didn’t know. And the fact that the door was locked together with the broken window had me very worried, I didn’t know what to think, but I was worried. So I wanted to knock the door down to see if there was something in there. I didn’t know what. But at the same time it worried me. And when I said to Filomena “It’s not true that it’s never locked,” I only wanted to explain the truth of the situation. Because someone was saying “No, no, it’s never locked,” and that wasn’t true. I wanted to explain that.
GM:
I see. On the 3rd of November, did you go to the store Discovery, on the day after the discovery of the body of Meredith?
AK:
When I bought underwear?
GM:
Yes. What happened there? Tell us a bit.
AK:
So, I didn’t have any more clothes, so I went with Raffaele to this store to get underwear, because I didn’t even know when I would be able to go back into my own house and get my things back. So we went there and looked at some clothes, and in the end I bought a pair of underwear.
GM:
The document in our possession—where is it now?
GCM:
We are looking at it. But I don’t know, maybe it would be better to take a break? Shall we suspend proceedings?
AK:
That would be beautiful.
GCM:
Fine. We’ll suspend the audience—now it’s 11:17—we’ll suspend until 11:28, to start again at 11:30.

11:30 a.m. Resumption after a 15-minute break }}
GCM:
Now we can resume the audience, continuing the examination by the pubblico ministero of the accused.
GM:
Here is the document we need to acquire.
GCM:
Oh, the document is still ...oh yes, we have it. Good, good. The parties have all had a look. Go ahead, pubblico ministero
GM:
Listen, do you remember….Let me show you. Do you recognize your signature on this interrogation?
GCM:
What interrogation is that?
GM:
This is the statement made following your spontaneous declarations.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
You recognize your signature.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
Now, another question. You told us before, this story about the door, about knocking down the door, that Raffaele tried to break down the door. You said that you tried to explain that sometimes she did have her door locked, you told us about this point. Now, I want to ask you this question: Raffaele didn’t by any chance try to break down the door to get back the lamp we talked about?
AK:
[perfectly calm reasonable voice] No, we didn’t know the lamp was in there.
GM:
You didn’t know that your lamp was in there?
AK:
In the sense that the lamp that was supposed to be in my room, I hadn’t even noticed it was missing. I tried—
GM:
You didn’t see that it was missing?
AK:
No, I didn’t see that it was missing. We tried to break down the door because I was so worried after having seen the broken window. I basically panicked. I was thinking, Good Lord, what’s going on here? I ran downstairs to see if anyone down there had heard anything, then I tried to see if she was inside. She locked her door when she needed “privacy” [English]. So if she wasn’t in there but the door was locked, it seemed strange to me. Also the fact that the window was broken worried me. It wasn’t to get something.
GM:
Yes, yes. Listen, did you actually observe Filomena Romanelli’s room?
AK:
I saw that there was “chaos” [English] in there. I saw the broken window, and a lot of stuff on the floor.
GM:
Did you see anything else? Did you see the rock?
AK:
I didn’t see the rock. I saw that there was the computer on the tab—No! The camera was on the table. I saw that the things were still there. I didn’t see the rock.
GM:
Listen, did you see the clothes on the floor?
AK:
Yes.
GM:
And the glass? On top of the clothes?
AK:
Well, I saw that the glass was broken and there were pieces of glass all over the place.
GM:
Also on top of the clothes?
AK:
I suppose there was, but I can’t say.
GM:
Listen, did you actually check whether anything was stolen?
AK:
I don’t know everything that Filomena has. But I saw that there was lots of stuff all over the place, so I couldn’t really check. That’s why I called her. I saw that the things that I recognized, things of value, were still in the apartment, like the television, the computer, those things. That’s why I thought: What a strange burglary!
GM:
Strange, eh.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
That basically there was no burglary.
AK:
Well, no. I saw that there was a broken window, so I did think there had been a burglary.
GM:
I have no other questions.
AK:
Okay.
GCM:
If the pubblico ministero has no more questions, then the other parties who have not already examined may question. Please, go ahead.
MC:
You said that you called your mother on the morning of Nov 2.
AK:
Yes.
GM:
When did you call her for the first time?

Posted on 10/15/17 at 11:31 PM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Monday, October 09, 2017

Netflixhoax 21(c) Omitted - This Very Telling Knox Questioning By Dr Mignini #3

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters



Knox again failing to convince 18 months later in court


(Long post, click here to go straight to Comments.)

1. Status Of Things At The Time

This follows from Post 1 and Post 2.

Six weeks after Meredith had died - in Perugia’s first murder for many years - a lot of events had occurred. Guede had been caught and Patrick finally released, through no help from Knox. Many leads had been followed up. All evidence emerging pointed only to the three.

The Matteini and Riciarelli oversight courts had received and reviewed copious evidence directly from the investigators, and had decided that AK and RS could be a flight risk and risk to witnesses and should remain locked up. Contradictions in their statements were rife.

Stuck with massive evidence, the defenses increasingly narrowed to a two-pronged attack: (1) Blame Guede and (2) Blame the police. It was not really begun here, as you can see, but soon did and continued to crescendo for seven years.

This unusual interrogation invited by Knox could actually have helped to get her released, if it had helped to prove either of the above. But in this final hour it becomes blindingly obvious to all present that Knox has boxed herself in.

So this became in effect a dry run for her second interrogation at the 2009 trial. That also was initiated by Knox and beamed more narrowly to fight the charge that she had feloniously impugned Patrick for Meredith’s death.

That was a far more public fail. This interrogation in December 2007 was not really reported, because the court ruled to keep the media out, as it did many times (oh, you didn’t know that?!)

But in June 2009 Knox was widely watched in Italy on the video feed from the court, and for many or most open-minded Italians that was it, there was no going back, to them Knox simply permeated guilt.

Our report then from Florence  in part.   

I don’t believe her. It is interesting to see Amanda Knox being cool and self-confident, but testifying about how disturbed she became when the police became pushy during her interrogation. It doesn’t fit.

And it comes across as untrustworthy and contradictory that when asked about her drug use, she puts on a “schoolgirl”’ attitude: In effect “Sorry, daddy judge, I was bad, don’t punish me for being young”.  This seems definitely out of order with the rest of her performance.

“Performance” is the impression I get from viewing the segments shown from the court - a well-rehearsed performance. I suppose that the jury will wonder how this cool person can forget whether she has replied to a sms-message, how she can get so confused that she names Patrick, afterwards “is too afraid to speak to anyone but her mother”, and so on.

Our report then from Milan  in part.

As many of us were expecting, Amanda’s testimony has backfired. She came across not as confident but arrogant, not as sweet but testy, not as true but a fake who has memorized a script, an actress who is playing a part but not well enough to fool the public.

It is true that the Italian media and public opinion in general have not been very benign with Knox. But not for the reasons that the American media seem to want to push.  Let’s make it clear, Amanda Knox is not on trial because Italians are unaccustomed to or even “jealous” of her freedom and lifestyle… The first time we read these “explanations” we found them quite laughable.

But for many or most Italians the initial amusement has now given way to a profound irritation. Amanda Knox’s lifestyle is shared by hundreds of thousands of Italian girls, who like partying and sex as much as she does - or even more - and they live a happy carefree life with no fear of being perceived as “bad girls.” They behave no differently from any other girl of the same age in America or in any other Western country.

   

2. The 17 December Interrogation Knox Requested (Part 3 Of 3)

Note: This is the third hour of three hours. The excellent translation is by Yummi, Catnip and Kristeva. The original in Italian is in the Wiki Case File here; it has been accessed nearly 4,000 times.

Transcript of Interview 17 December 2007: Statement of interview Of Ms Amanda Knox (cont)

[Ed note: start of overlap with Post #2]

PM Mignini: Well, but in the meanwhile, did two other young people arrive?

Knox: Yes after the police arrived, I led them into the house, because I thought they were those Raffaele had called, and I showed them that the door was locked and I showed them the window was broken and in the meanwhile Filomena and the boyfriend arrived…

Interpreter: Yes when the two police officers arrived, she thought they were those Raffaele had called and so she showed them…

Knox: And also two friends of hers [arrived]

Interpreter: … Meredith’s locked room and Filomena’s room with the broken glass, with the broken window and then Filomena with her boyfriend arrived and also other two young people…

PM Mignini: Oh… so you… you entered, I ask you this once more, you didn’t enter Filomena’s room, did you enter the other rooms?

Knox: It’s not that I went to look around, but I opened Laura’s door, that was all ok, there the bed was done up. There was the computer, so it was all ok.

Interpreter: She opened Laura’s room and she saw it was all in order

PM Mignini: Did you enter the room?

Knox: Maybe one step but I didn’t go inside

Interpreter: Maybe she made a step but she didn’t go around much

PM Mignini: And in which other… did you enter other rooms?

Knox: I entered my room, and I tried to open the door of Meredith’s room

[Ed note: end of overlap with Post #2]

[73]

Interpreter: She entered her room, and tried to enter Meredith’s room but it was locked

PM Mignini: And so what did you… what happened at that point?

Knox: After Filomena arrived, she handled the talking with the police, and I stayed in the kitchen with Raffaele

Interpreter: After Filomena arrived, it was Filomena talking with the two officers and Amanda and Raffaele remained in the kitchen

PM Mignini: And so did you two see… what happened next? You two, did you see?

Knox: I know the police opened Meredith’s room

Interpreter: She knows the police opened Meredith’s room

PM Mignini: You know that because they told you?

Knox: No, no, I was in the kitchen, and from there I could see they were beside Meredith’s room, but I was not there, I was in the kitchen

Interpreter: No, no, she saw that from the kitchen

PM Mignini: But you, what did you see of Meredith’s room?

Knox: I did not see inside the room

PM Mignini: You didn’t see anything…

Interpreter: She didn’t see down into the inside of the room

PM Mignini: So did you see the scene? Neither you nor Raffaele?

Interpreter: No

Knox: No we didn’t see

PM Mignini: Neither of you two, when they opened it, where were you?

Knox: In the kitchen

[74]

Interpreter: In the kitchen

PM Mignini: So you were a few meters away

Knox: Yes, yes

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: In what area of the kitchen were you staying?

Knox: more or less near the entrance

Interpreter: In the.. near the [outside] entrance of the kitchen…

PM Mignini: About the entrance, you mean the house entrance, just beyond… so you were…

Knox: Yes we were inside

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: When they entered, then was the door immediately closed again?

Interpreter: With the officers?

PM Mignini: Meredith’s [room].

Knox: I don’t know, they just told me to get out of the house

Interpreter: She doesn’t know, because they told her to get out of the house

PM Mignini: The Carabinieri, at what time did they arrive? Did [some people] wearing black uniforms come? Other police officers?

Knox: The Carabinieri came… at that point I was very frightened… I don’t remember when they arrived, I’m sure that was after, when I went out, and I sat on the ground and I couldn’t understand what was going on…

Interpreter: The Carabinieri arrived afterwards when I was outside

PM Mignini: How long after the arrival of the two plain-clothed police officers?

[75]

Knox: I’ve already said in these instances it’s too difficult to define the time, because I only remember Filomena saying “A foot! A foot!” We were pushed out, there were police officers outside and I sat on the ground, I couldn’t… I was under shock and couldn’t understand what happened…

Interpreter: What Amande remembers is that after Meredith’s door was opened, Filomena was screaming “A foot! A foot!” and Amanda was told to get out of the house and it’s hard to explain at this point, to tell if she was frightened..

PM MIgnini: When did the Carabinieri come? When? After the body had been discovered?

Knox: I saw the Carabinieri when I went out, I don’t know when they came…

Interpreter: She saw the Carabinieri when she got out of the house, she doesn’t know when they came

PM MIgnini: But the Carabinieri did not enter? You did not see them inside the house.

Knox: No I don’t think so…

Interpreter: No

PM MIgnini: So you saw them when you went out, so was that after a long time since the arrival of the Postal Police? After… ten minutes, fifteen minutes?

Knox: Yes, maybe after some ten minutes, I was still in shock and I was scared so it’s difficult to tell at what time the various things happened…

Interpreter: It’s difficult for her to say how much time had passed because she was in shock but something like ten minutes must have passed

PM MIgnini: Oh well, I wanted to know this: did Raffaele tell you about what was in the room?

[76]

Knox: Before, he didn’t know himself what was inside the room

Interpreter: Before, he didn’t even know himself

Knox: But after, when they were all talking… he found out yes… After the police was there and we were all outside together I don’t know who told him but it must have been Filomena or I don’t know who else… but someone explained him that it was not just a foot in the room but the body… but what they saw of it was the foot… So he explained to me that the body was in the room, but you could only see the foot.

Interpreter: When she was outside with Raffaele, to [sic] him, he understood that it was not just a foot but it was the body that had been found

PM MIgnini: But he told you, did he tell you textually “there was a girl’s body inside the wardrobe covered with a sheet, and the only thing you could see was a foot”. This, did Raffaele tell it to you?

(the interpreter, at this point translates the question asked by PM MIgnini this way: “did Raffaele tell you that in the room there was the body covered by a cover?)

Knox: Yes

Lawyer: She [the interpreter] did not say: in the wardrobe?

PM MIgnini: These are your statements. You declared on December 2…. on November 2. … On November 2. 2007 at the first questioning when you were heard, the very first one, a few hours after the discovery of the body, you told, you said Raffaele told you that “in the wardrobe, there was the body of a girl covered by a sheet and the only thing you could see was a foot”. Is this true, that Raffaele told you this?

Lawyer: Please judge, could you read it to us?

[77]

PM MIgnini: So “in the wardrobe..” Excuse me, please translate this word by word to her… “in the wardrobe there was the body of a girl covered with a sheet and the only thing that you could see was a foot”

Knox: As Raffaele said

Interpreter: This is as Raffaele told it to Amanda…

PM MIgnini: Yes, she said this in the first [2 November] questioning.

Knox: Yes, apparently, it seemed to me, he told me the body was in the wardrobe… it’s this that he told me… obviously he did not see himself inside the room, it was things that were told to him by someone else…

Interpreter: Yes, on November 2. she said so because it’s what Raffaele told her. Because not even what he thought he understood [sic “neanche quello che secondo lui ha capito”]... Since he did not see… he did not see inside the room…. Raffaele told her that way

PM MIgnini: These are textual, precise words so? … I may read them again to you… You confirmed…

Lawyer: She confirmed that Raffaele heard other people saying that maybe this was the version, and he referred this version, referring to something he heard

PM MIgnini: I read them again, I can read them again….

Lawyer: We’ve read it, you explained to us

PM MIgnini: So on November 2. you say, that means the first questioning at 15: 30, this is the first one, the most aseptic one let’s say, so: “I learned in that moment from my boyfriend that inside Meredith’s room in the wardrobe there was the body of a girl covered with a sheet and the only thing you could see was a foot”.

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

[76]

PM MIgnini: You confirm that he spoke to you this way

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

Lawyer: She pointed out to the previous question, the source from which Raffaele had this information

Interpreter: Raffaele did not see, so it was what it seemed to him

Lawyer: Raffaele collected this information from other people

Interpreter: From the people around, Carabinieri and other young people

PM MIgnini: But excuse me, excuse me, did Raffaele tell you this, did he tell you “this one told me, that one told me”, or instead Raffaele limited himself to just telling you this? What did Raffaele tell you?

Knox: I think it was Filomena’s friends who told him

Interpreter: She thinks it was Filomena’s [male] friend who told Raffaele

PM MIgnini: You think…

Knox: I don’t know who told him

PM MIgnini: Excuse me…

Interpreter: Yes she thinks but doesn’t know

PM MIgnini: Excuse me, the question was as follows, here’s the question… Are you ready? … So, Raffaele comes to you…

Knox: Yes

PM MIgnini: And what does he say? “There is the body of a girl in the wardrobe, covered with a sheet, and you can only see a foot”? Or did he say “someone told me that there is the body of a girl” and said who [told him]?

[79]

Knox: I understand… I understand… He said precisely “Apparently there is a girl, there is the body of a girl, in the wardrobe… But the only thing that you can see is her foot”

Interpreter: He did not say who told him, he just said “it seems like…” and “apparently…”

PM MIgnini: He said so: “It seems like…” ?

Interpreter: Yes

PM MIgnini: The body is in the wardrobe covered with a sheet, and you only see a foot

Interpreter: Yes it seems like they say apparently

PM MIgnini: Oh, then when did you know, you, how Meredith died?

Lawyer: How Meredith was dead?

PM MIgnini: That she was dead, and about how she died

Knox: The police told me

PM MIgnini: When did they tell you?

Knox: At the beginning they didn’t tell us if was Meredith or not, Filomena said “Oh no, Meredith!” so I imagined it was her but I didn’t know… So at the Questura when they were already questioning they told me then that it was Meredith. I don’t remember the exact moment when they told me but it was at the Questura…

Interpreter: She actually learned this when she was at the Questura, later, before she learned about the body of a girl and then she heard Filomena saying “Oh my god, its Meredith!” and hence…

[80]

PM Mignini: And about the way she was killed, when did you come to know that? Excuse me, I’ll give you an example, she could have been shot with a gun, with a stab, poisoned… I mean…

Knox: I didn’t know how she was killed… I thought that there was this foot in the room but didn’t know anything else… The police…

Interpreter: The police told her

PM : When? Who told you from the police?

Knox: I don’t remember

Interpreter: She doesn’t remember

Lawyer: No, but she also said that she doesn’t know how she was killed…

PM Mignini: This is important: therefore you don’t know how she was killed?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No, she didn’t know

PM Mignini: You didn’t know how she was killed, what was it the police telling you?

Knox: The police told me that her throat had been cut… and from what they told me I had pictured something horrible…

Interpreter: The police told her that her throat had been cut

PM Mignini: Who told you from the police?

Knox: I don’t remember

Interpreter: Eh, she doesn’t know who

PM Mignini: Well, a man, a woman…?

Knox: I don’t remember

Interpreter: I don’t remember

[81]

PM Mignini : And when were you told?

Knox: When I was at the questura, but I don’t remember. When they interrogated me the first time I remember that they said “we don’t even know if it’s Meredith” I don’t remember when they told me, I only remember that the police told me when I was in the Questura because I didn’t know what had happened…

Interpreter: She only remembers that she was in the questura when she came to know how

PM Mignini: At what time?

Knox: I don’t remember…

Interpreter: I don’t remember.

PM Mignini: After having talked, after you were heard at the Questura, did you go away or did you wait?

Knox: The first day I was questioned I was there for hours… maybe 14…

Interpreter: The first time it seems to her that she had been there a very long time, 14 hours

PM Mignini: But questioned

Knox: No, maybe they questioned me for 6 hours but I stayed at the Questura a very long time…

Interpreter: It must have been more or less 6 hours that Amanda was questioned but staying in the Questura must have been about…

PM Mignini: But was there… were you in the waiting room?

Knox: Yes the whole time together with everyone else we were there in the waiting room…

Interpreter Yes, yes together with the other ones

PM Mignini: And who were the other people?

[82]

Knox: The housemates, and later others arrived… After quite a long time our neighbors arrived, after a while some people Meredith knew arrived, her friends

Interpreter: Her housemates and then other people who arrived later, the neighbors after a while… and after, Meredith’s friends arrived, the people Meredith knew…

PM Mignini: But did you speak to them? Did you exchange any confidences?

Knox: Yes we were all there and I said “it appears that Meredith’s body was found in a closet”

PM Mignini: Who said that?

Knox: I remember talking to her friends and I remember telling them that it appeared the body had been found inside a closet…

Interpreter: She remembers having said it to Meredith’s friends

PM Mignini: But friends, who? You must tell us the name… a name even just the name…

Knox: I remember having talked to Sophie… But I don’t know the name of the other friends

PM Mignini: A certain Natalie? From London

Knox: The name sounds familiar but I don’t think I could recognize her face

Interpreter: She can’t tie the name to her face but…

PM Mignini: And what were you saying? What kind of comments were you making?

[83]

Knox: I told them what I knew, I told them that I had arrived home and found the door open, and told them what I knew…

Interpreter: She told what she knew that she had arrived home and found the door open

PM Mignini: Did you ever see, did you see in those moments the wound on Meredith’s neck?

Interpreter: Up to the moment?

PM Mignini: In that moment.

Knox: I never saw Meredith dead, I never saw her dead body…

Interpreter: No, she never saw her dead

PM Mignini: Ok, but was there anyone that night who said, anyone who said that she had died quickly? Did someone else say that she must have suffered for a long time… was there anyone who said this?

Knox: Nobody of the people I talked to knew what had happened…

Interpreter: No, none of the people she talked to said something… knew what had happened

PM Mignini: Did you come to know, did you ever come to know, and if yes, when, in what moment, Meredith had died… that is, if Meredith’s death was immediate or if it was prolonged, if there was a death agony… if yes, when did you find that out?

Knox: The only time when I heard of this was when Luciano [Ghirga] was describing the wound and how deep it was… What kind of wound it was and he said “maybe she died slowly because no big vein had been struck”

Interpreter: So, the first time you had heard talking about the wound and how she died… when was it with Luciano?

Lawyer: The morning of the 8th

[84]

PM Mignini: So, after the 6th…

Lawyer: The morning of the 8th

PM Mignini: The morning of November 8th

Lawyer: After the arrest validation [hearing]

Interpreter: And there she found out that no vital vein was directly struck and therefore…

PM Mignini: You say that she came to know on the 8th from the lawyer.

Lawyer: From the lawyers.

PM Mignini: From the lawyers, sorry.

Lawyer: We always came all together

PM Mignini: Either one or the other [of you] could have told her… so… [talking to Knox] I formally notify [for the record, a contradiction] that an Erasmus student and a colleague of this student, they said, on this past December 10th that on the night of the second in the Questura, while having… a girl called Natalie, I won’t tell you her last name but she… she was a friend of Meredith, she had noticed that you were talking at length with Sollecito, and at a certain point, in response to a comment made by one of these girls that they hoped Meredith had died without suffering, you instead said “ with those kind of wounds the death would not have come fast and that therefore Meredith must have died after a certain period of time”. I’ll reread it to you if you’d like, ok?

Knox: The police told me that her throat was cut, and what I know about that topic, I mean when they cut your throat, it is terrible and I heard that it’s a horrible way to die…

Interpreter: Yes the police had told her that Meredith’s throat was cut and what Amanda knew is that it’s an agonizing way to die…

[85]

PM Mignini: But this is something we found out after, we too found it out only later… not right away…

Knox: The police told me that her throat had been cut.

Interpreter: The police had told her that her throat had been cut.

PM Mignini: Who from the police? Excuse me I’d like to know… cutting the neck, it can happen in many ways, vital veins can be struck and might also not be struck, therefore one thing is about cutting the throat, and another is about the way how to cut it and therefore make it so that the death occurs instantaneously, or cause a death with agony. On the evening of the second, if it’s true, according to these results, on the evening of the second you knew that, with those kind of wounds, she must have suffered an agony… and the police didn’t know that…

Knox: I thought that a death by cutting the throat was always slow and terrible…

PM Mignini: The autopsy was made on the fourth, two days later

Interpreter: What she thought was that cutting the throat was always a slow death in general

PM Mignini: It’s not like that…not necessarily… anyway, who from the police told you about the neck wound? Tell us.

Knox: It was probably the interpreter…the first interpreter was the person I talked to the most… all information I had came more or less from him…

Interpreter: Probably the translator/interpreter

PM Mignini: Therefore, therefore he told you while you were being heard…

Lawyer: She was in there 12 hours

[86]

Knox: When I was in there I was talking to the police and they told me that her throat was cut… the whole conversation was between me and the interpreter. It was him who must have told me, a long time has passed but I think it was like that…

Interpreter: Directly from the interpreter, indirectly from the police

PM Mignini: So [it was] when you were questioned. Not before.

Interpreter: No, before she was questioned she didn’t know how she was…

Knox: No, when I was home the way she died…

PM Mignini: Before being questioned… you were questioned until 15:30, until what time have you been heard? You were being heard since 15:30, until what time were you being heard?

Knox: I don’t know it was a long questioning…

Lawyer: She had been heard in the presence of an interpreter, maybe the interpreter…

PM Mignini: It was D’Astolto… Fabio D’Astolto

Lawyer: The interpreter was present from the beginning or only from the questioning onwards?

PM Mignini: Yes, well he was a policeman acting as an interpreter, translating. Fabio D’Astolto. Assistant D’Astolto. When and how, in what terms did D’Astolto express himself, this translator what did he tell you?

Lawyer: When?

PM Mignini: When and what did he tell you

Knox: I don’t remember when but I asked him how she died

Interpreter: She doesn’t remember when but she asked him how she was killed…

PM Mignini: And he pointed out to you the wound on the neck. The wound on the neck and that’s all. Fine. This translator.

[87]

Lawyer: [to the Prosecutor] You referred to an Erasmus student who had said that on December 10th.  Ms. Natalie would have said this.

PM Mignini: Yes

Lawyer: And is the Erasmus student indicated [in the records]?

PM Mignini: It is indicated

Lawyer: Do we have a name?

PM Mignini: Capruzzi, Filippo and the other one is a certain, a colleague of his, Chiara, Maioli.

Lawyer: So it was two Erasmus students

PM Mignini: Two Erasmus students who confirmed this confidentiality from this English girl. Some… this is the December 10th hearing report… ok

Lawyer G. She clarified if she had talked with the interpreter, with someone before…

Lawyer C. We have clarified that the interpreter was not an interpreter but was a police officer who speaks English and that apparently was present from the beginning and therefore at this point…

PM Mignini: Wait.. one moment… did you, did you… did you see this person who was translating at the house?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: Perfect

Lawyer: She was approximately 12 hours in the Questura and at some time she heard the first… let’s call it questioning but it was a long time, and before the questioning she heard of this wound on the neck, is that right?

[88]

PM Mignini: During the questioning, you said before, during the questioning so much as this policeman translator was present, therefore… no I’m very sorry, who did you hear this from? The translator? The policeman

Interpreter: About the wound? The first time?

PM Mignini: The wound

Knox: I think so

Knox: The first time?

PM Mignini: Yeah

Interpreter: I think the interpreter the first time

PM Mignini: And it would be this D’Astolto… so this D’Astolto told you, please excuse me you told me this “it was D’Astolto” now… therefore this D’Astolto told you this during the course of the questioning?

Knox: I think so…

Interpreter: Yes, she thinks so

PM Mignini: Ok, one more thing, so the… you did, the morning of the… actually no, the night between the fifth and the sixth of November, you did, let’s say partially modify your previous declarations, so then you modified your previous declarations and you made a specific accusation against Patrick Dia Lumumba known as Patrick. You said that you were supposed to meet with Patrick, that you met with Patrick at the basketball court of Piazza Grimana, that you went to Meredith’s house, to your house, and then he had sex with Meredith, then you heard a scream and you accused him even if in terms you say “confusedly” of killing Meredith. Isn’t that so? Why did you make this accusation? … Now remember, I was hearing you, I was present, you were crying, you were

[89]

profoundly upset, and you were as if relieved when you made this statement.

Lawyer: Maybe she was stressed?

PM Mignini: Well, stressed or not, in any case she was very   she made these declarations

Lawyer: You asked her a question “Why did you make these declarations”?

PM Mignini: Well I also have to…

Lawyer: Eh these are opinions

PM Mignini: I am saying that you made a declaration not in a detached way, in other words in a very involved manner, why did you make these statements?

Knox: I was scared, I was confused, it had been hours that the police that I thought were protecting me, and instead they were putting me under pressure and were threatening me.

Interpreter: She was scared, she was confused, it had been hours that the police were threatening and pressuring her.

PM Mignini: Yes, tell me, go on

Knox: The reason why I thought of Patrick was because the police were yelling at me about Patrick… they kept saying about this message, that I had sent a message to Patrick…

Interpreter: The reason why she thought of Patrick was because the police was asking her who was this Patrick to whom she sent, with whom there was this exchange of messages, they were asking her insistently.

Knox: That was the worse experience of my life

Interpreter: The worse experience of her life

[90]

Knox: I had never been more confused than then

Interpreter: She had been so confused or scared

PM Mignini: But in the following memoriale [spontaneous statement around noon 6 November] that you wrote before going to prison, basically you don’t retract this accusation. Even if in terms, still in terms let’s say of uncertainty, between dream and reality, in other words in such a way … still you didn’t … I believe that in this memoriale you say “I still see this image in front of me” and then you see yourself while hearing it, you say that in that first memoriale you wrote “you hear Meredith’s screams and you put your hands over your ears”. Why do you have this image? Your ears… the scream… it’s not like it’s changing much after all isn’t that so?

Lawyer: No, but she says she was very confused… she was under a lot of stress

PM Mignini: Yes, but why does it basically remain the same, this one…

Knox: Yes, I imagined these things…

Interpreter: Imagined this scene

Knox: I was so scared and confused

Interpreter: I was so scared and confused

Knox: that I tried to imagine what could have happened. The police told me that I was probably not remembering well. So I thought of what could be another answer and therefore I imagined it…

Interpreter: She tried to think of what could have happened since the police was saying that probably she didn’t remember well. And therefore she imagined this scene, trying to think how it could have happened

PM Mignini: Well, you, I just tell you, I tell you only that this Dia Lumumba, this Patrick, only comes up in your statements, he wasn’t, he has never been indicated previously in the slightest, I mean why did you, why did you almost feel…

[91]

...forced to, so you say, to give this name? While this name had never been, you had never mentioned him previously… in the statements of the 2nd, the 3rd…. Why only at a certain point di this Patrick pop up? I’m telling you, do you realize… excuse me, eh? … excuse me….

Knox: They were telling me “why did you send this message to Patrick, this message to Patrick!”

Interpreter: Because they were always insisting about this message to Patrick and because…

PM Mignini: Well because there’s the message so [it’s] the message but it’s just that, it’s not that there was an attitude, I mean it’s not like there was any reference to a message according to what emerges from the statements. In fact there was a message that you… since there had been an exchange of messages right before the time of the murder between you and this person it’s normal that the police would want to know why, what this message meant, this… therefore it’s not something… why did you threw yourself in this kind of… ? While you had, you had the possibility to…?

Knox: Because I thought that it could have been true

Interpreter: Because she thought it could have been true…

PM Mignini: It could have been true?

Lawyer: Why?

Knox: When I was there, I was confused…

PM Mignini: [to the lawyers, ed.] No, no, excuse me, at this point no, I’m sorry. Not the lawyers. The defense can intervene against me but against the person investigated…?

Lawyer Ghirga: But there was no question… Prosecutor there was no question

PM Mignini: It could be true. What does it mean?

[92]

Lawyer Ghirga: There was no question

PM Mignini: What? I am asking the question.

Lawyer Ghirga: Then ask it.

PM Mignini: What does it mean, how ‘could it be true’? What?

Lawyer Ghirga: What could be true?

PM Mignini: Excuse me, lawyer

Lawyer Ghirga: It’s like the phone call with her parents

PM Mignini: What could be true

Lawyer Ghirga: It’s like the phone call with her parents

PM Mignini: …Lawyer Ghirga… what…?

Lawyer Ghirga: [seems to Knox] What do you want to say then? Let’s ask her…

PM Mignini: Excuse me, I am asking the questions, I am asking them now

Lawyer Ghirga Yes of course

PM Mignini: Then after you can… I am asking her…

Lawyer Ghirga: Yes of course, we will ask them too…

PM Mignini: Lawyer… she is saying “it could have been true”…

Lawyer: What?

PM Mignini: “it could have been true”. She was telling me why did she accuse Lumumba of this fact? “It could have been true” is what she answered. Gentlemen, here…

Knox: I said it because I imagined it and I thought that it could have been true…

Interpreter: She said because she had imagined it and therefore she thought it could have been true.

[93]

PM Mignini: Look, listen… listen, why did you imagine it?

Knox Why?... Because I was stressed

PM Mignini: Why didn’t you imagine…

Lawyer: No she was answering

PM Mignini: Yes; what did you want to say?

Interpreter: Because she was under stress…

Knox: Knox: Why? I was stressed, I was scared, it was after long hours in the middle of the night, I was innocent and they were telling me that I was guilty

Interpreter: Because they were saying that she was guilty

PM Mignini: Who was saying it? Guilty who’….

Interpreter: After hours…

Lawyer: Excuse me, prosecutor, if we can correctly compile this translation, these words that were said in English at the right moment

PM Mignini: She is crying, we acknowledge, I’m sorry, we acknowledge that the… investigated is crying.

Interpreter: Because she was stressed, scared under pressure after many hours, she was… in the middle of the night, they had reached the middle of the night and because they were saying that Amanda was guilty.

PM Mignini: Who was saying that she was guilty?

Interpreter: The police

Lawyer: The police was accusing her

Interpreter: The police was accusing Amanda

[94]

PM Mignini: Why… why did you accuse Lumumba and not others? How many people did you know who could…

Knox: Because they were yelling Patrick’s name…

Interpreter: She accused Patrick and not others because they were always talking about Patrick, suggesting…

PM Mignini: The police, the police couldn’t suggest…

Interpreter: Yelling Patrick’s name

PM Mignini: Excuse me, what was the police saying?

Interpreter: What did the police tell you?

Knox: The police were telling me that ‘we know that you were at the house, we know that you left the house’, and the moment before I said Patrick’s name they put.. someone was showing me the message that I had sent on the phone

Interpreter: The police said that they knew that Amanda was inside the house, and when she went in, when she went out, that she was inside the house, and while they were asking her this someone showed her Patrick’s message on the phone.

PM Mignini: But this is… But this is normal. You… there was this message… I’m sorry, I’m very sorry. There’s a murder here. There’s a girl whose throat is slit, there was a phone number, there was a call that had been made, you were being heard. There was a call that had been made to you on the night of the murder from this person, you replied to this call in a way that could have been interpreted, according to the meaning in Italian “will see you”. Eh, so what is more normal than to insist? The police are doing their job. They insist to know, what did that mean, what was the, what relationship was there between you and Lumumba. This is normal.

[95]

Knox: I didn’t understand why they were insisting that I was lying… they kept telling me that I was lying…

Interpreter: She didn’t understand why they were insisting that she was lying.

PM Mignini: Why are you…?

Interpreter: The police was insisting that she was lying.

PM Mignini: But why did you accuse, then if it was like this….  Again you are, you are crying again, for a long while since you started, I put in the record, I put in the record that… it’s been ten minutes that you have been crying. Why did you accuse a person that, today, you’re telling us he is innocent, but earlier you just told us “it could be true” what does “it could be true” mean? You have told me “it could be true”.

Lawyer: The subject is missing

PM Mignini: No the subject is there, because I asked the question. Why did you accuse Lumumba?

Lawyer: Can we suspend a moment please?

PM Mignini: What reason?

Knox: It means that in the moment when I told Patrick’s name, I thought that it could have been true.

Interpreter: In the moment in which she said Patrick’s name, in that moment, she thought it could have been true.

Lawyer Ghirga: We ask for a suspension… she is calm, you say she is crying, and we think she’s not.

PM Mignini: I put that in the record it because I could see the tears, she was crying and I could hear her too.

[96]

Lawyer: It was not ten minutes long

PM Mignini: Well, even more, maybe

Lawyer: maybe, no less

PM Mignini: Let’s interrupt, break off.

Lawyer: You asked her six times…

PM Mignini: For Heaven’s sake, let’s interrupt, break off.

(interruption)

[from this point on Amanda declares her right to remain silent]

PM Mignini: So, at 15:12 lawyer Luciano Ghirga resumes the interrogation

Lawyer Ghirga: In the name of the defensive collegium we submit a reason to confer personally, privately, we mean alone together with our client, for a time not longer than ten minutes.

PM Mignini: So, the Public Prosecutor is pointing out that the interrogation had already been suspended and it’s 15: 13 now, pointing out that the interrogation was suspended several times, and the last time for, how long? Ten minutes on request of the defence, and the defence will be allowed to fully have counsel with the person under investigation at the end of the interrogation. [The Public Prosecutor] orders to proceed, orders to go forward with the investigation procedure. So now I would like…

Lawyer Ghirga: If you may, ask to the suspect, to the person under investigation, whether she intends to go on or to invoke her right not to answer…?

PM Mignini: This is a… it’s a… it’s a… she decided to answer questions at the beginning. Now if she decides to make a statement where she says “I don’t want to answer any more” she’ll be the one who says it, and it’s not that I must ask now, that question was done at the beginning of the interrogation. If now she wants to say…

Knox: I prefer not to answer any more…

[97]

Lawyer Ghirga: What did she say?

Interpreter: She doesn’t want to answer anymore.

PM Mignini: So, at this point, at 15: 15, on a question asked by the defence lawyers, about whether the person under investigation intends to go on answering or not…

Lawyer Ghirga: To your questions

PM Mignini: To a question by lawyer Ghirga… yes, well, Lawyer Ghirga asked her that

Lawyer: He didn’t first ask the question

Lawyer Ghirga: But what question did I ask?

Lawyer: We told you to ask her…

PM Mignini: Yes, you asked me, and I did follow the request. But…

Lawyer Ghirga: She made a declaration, and we took note, unfortunately, about forbidden suggestions… but on what request…?

PM Mignini: Now at this point, at 15: 15 the defence lawyers… Let’s put like this, the defence lawyers ask this Prosecutor about whether he intends to ask the person under investigation if she intends to go on answering questions, but then, after my decision, Lawyer Ghirga said…

Lawyer Ghirga: Who said? You said

PM Mignini: You asked her, I put in the record what happened, it’s recorded anyway, this is what I perceived you asked her, and she answered “I do not intend to answer”, she said, and then the interpreter…

Lawyer Ghirga: I asked whether she intended to make a statement, and she made a statement

PM Mignini: You indicated that to her, it changes nothing, doesn’t change… I must only put in the record what happened. The public prosecutor points out that…

[98]

...the warning about the right not to answer was explained to the person under investigation at the beginning of the interrogation, as provided by the Code, and that same [person under investigation] declared she wanted to answer. It is not possible now to invoke the duty to inform the suspect about her right, because such requirement has been already fulfilled. Anyway the person under investigation can, if she decides to, declare that she doesn’t want to answer any more. Such option has been shown to the person under investigation by lawyer Ghirga.

Lawyer: ...by the defence lawyers

PM Mignini: By the defence lawyers, to the person under investigation. What do you want to do?

Lawyer: What do you mean by “It was shown?”

PM Mignini: It was shown, because you said… I need to put in the record what happened. The lawyer… Facing my warrant which I described, the notice was provided at the beginning of the interrogation as the code requires. She said “I want to answer, I do not intend to invoke my right not to answer”. That answer had been given already, I informed her, and she answered. Now to this, at this point, however, I said nothing prevents her from wanting, from declaring “at this point I do not intend to answer any more”. I put it in the record and I don’t ask why, at that point, at that point.

Lawyer: You should not put in the record “the defence lawyers have shown…”

PM Mignini: “at that point”

Lawyer: We did not show anything, we asked to be allowed to, well… and you said no.

PM Mignini: So… lawyer, lawyer?

Lawyer: And you said no, and we didn’t have the possibility to show her…

[99]

PM Mignini: Lawyer Ghirga… Lawyer Ghirga…

Lawyer: that she might invoke her right to not answer. It’s not that it’s we who’ve shown this possibility this is what I want to explain…

PM Mignini: Lawyer Ghirga told her something, so…?

Lawyer Ghirga: No, no, I only said, if you could give us a ten minutes suspension

PM Mignini: You told her something, now come on… I need to put that on record

Lawyer Ghirga: what did I say…

PM Mignini: You have shown, I don’t know if the other lawyer did too, you told, Lawyer Ghirga, you told the person under investigation about… You said, if you can, if I remember correctly,  we’ll hear her again…

Lawyer Costa: It was me who told her, Mr. Prosecutor

PM Mignini: So I understood Lawyer Ghirga… Lawyer Giancarlo Costa declares he explained that, I didn’t say anything else

Lawyer Costa: ... To Ms. Amanda Knox to use her right to invoke her right not to answer

PM Mignini: ... And she herself declares so, she is supposed to declare what she wants

Lawyer: She has already said that

PM Mignini: Let’s repeat it since with this superimposition of voices… the interpreter will translate faithfully word-by-word what you say.

Knox: At this point I don’t want to answer any more

Interpreter: At this point she doesn’t want to answer any more

PM Mignini: So “at this point I don’t want to answer any more”. We put on record that the current transcript was recorded entirely.

[100]

Lawyer Costa: Mr Public Prosecutor, we lawyers may renounce to our own time terms of deposit if Your Honour would give us a copy

PM Mignini: Yes, no problem… at 15: 22. The parties demand a transcription, I mean the defence lawyers request the transcription of the recording.

Posted on 10/09/17 at 11:00 PM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Tuesday, October 03, 2017

Netflixhoax 21(b) Omitted - This Very Telling Knox Questioning By Dr Mignini #2

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters



That’s better…


(Long post, click here to go straight to Comments.)

1. Amanda Knox’s Problem Going In

The first post on the interrogation of 17 Dec 2007 by Dr Mignini that Knox herself invited can be read here

These are two fairly typical quotes from the 240 online reviewers (yes 240 is our latest count) who the dishonest Netflix report had inflamed - and most in their turn had inflamed their numerous readers, who posted angry comments underneath. So the extent of the inflaming was huge.

The documentary is good. But it leaves out a lot of things. For example, the prosecutor Mignini continually proclaimed that it was a ritual killing with all kinds of Satanic overtones. The documentary should have discussed those bizarre thoughts more to emphasize how ridiculous this man was and still is.

Mignini’s statements are so fanciful that it’s easy to wonder if nuance has gotten lost in translation; however, perhaps as its nod to objectivity, the documentary politely omits that Mignini has not only a history of abuse of power but also an obsession with the occult and a history of fantasizing imaginary crimes based on faulty assumptions.

All untrue - if the claims were true, this interview would never have taken place.

No supporting proof from those reviewers. No grounding in what the official documents described as really having happened, though those documents were already available by the hundreds in translation by then. No research into the real Dr Mignini. No checking of his various interviews. No warning flags thrown up by Amanda Knox’s lies in the Netflix report and before. No mention that for lying she served three years, and will remain a felon for life.

The standard Knox-Mellas-Marriott mantra. “Simply blaze away. After all, the guy is in Italy, so if we make things up and defame him, what can he possibly do? As incompetent and biased as we may be, we are home and dry. And safely harass the victim’s family from afar, too, as the Netflix producers had done.”

That would make the mafias proud….

Okay. Do you know why defense counsel so often insist that their clients simply shut up? It’s not simply the possibility of lies - it is the possibility of CONTRADICTIONS that could really hurt.

It is from contradictions that investigators and prosecutors and judges will know in a heartbeat that both claims cannot be true - that at least one is a lie. And innocent parties don’t often lie.

From the day of her arrest (6 November) investigators and her soon-appointed defense not only knew that Knox was already a mass of contradictions.

They had proof in writing: Knox’s three statements on the day of her arrest, and her long email home of several days before, which did not fit together at all well.

Knox’s new defense must have feared that investigators had in writing in their notes numerous other contradictions too - more proof of lies. Sure enough, written proof of a fatal contradiction which went toward imprisoning her for three years did in fact exist.

Sollecito’s written statement early on 6 November claimed that Knox had made him lie. Sollecito’s written statement for his judicial hearing on 8 November before Judge Matteini started “I wish to not see Amanda ever again.”

Is it therefore surprising that at both the Matteini hearing and that before the Ricciarelli panel of review judges later that month, Knox’s defense team are known to have told Knox “Don’t talk” ?

So. On with the Great Contradiction Hunt. And see if any Netflix reviewers’ claim about the prosecutor shows here.

2. The 17 December Interrogation Knox Requested (Part 2 Of 3)

Note: This is the second hour of three hours. The excellent translation is by Yummi, Catnip and Kristeva. The original in Italian is in the Wiki Case File here; it has been accessed nearly 4,000 times.

Transcript of Interview 17 December 2007: Statement of interview Of Ms Amanda Knox (cont)

[Ed note: start of overlap with Post #1]

PM Mignini: So she needed to go home, to take a shower and, let me understand, take a shower and to what?

Interpreter: To change her clothes

PM Mignini: To change your clothes… well and so what [did you]… did you bring anything with you?

Knox: I think I brought some clothes… dirty underwear…

Interpreter: Yes she thinks she brought dirty clothes from Raffaele’s home

PM Mignini: Dirty clothes that is… dirty clothes from previous times? Or since which… since what day were they lasting from?

Knox: I had spent two weeks living a bit at my home and a bit at his home

Interpreter: Because for two weeks she had been living half the time at her home and half the time at his home, and thus she had a bit of…

PM Mignini: What clothes were those ones?

Knox: Maybe underwear

Interpreter: Probably…

Knox: But I don’t remember, maybe it was a t-shirt

PM Mignini: You don’t remember

Interpreter: Dirty clothes…

PM Mignini: Well dirty clothes, I mean a skirt, a pullover…

Interpreter: No rather…

PM Mignini: Underwear garments

Interpreter: Underwear garments

PM Mignini: She doesn’t remember?

Interpreter: She thinks rather pants and vests /undershirts… and t-shirts

PM Mignini: Well, how were you dressed when you went at your house?

Interpreter: From Raffaele’s house to her house?

Knox: I was wearing trousers I remember that and let’s see…  so much time has passed… I know it was trousers

PM Mignini: Yes

Interpreter: She put on some trousers, she remembers it was trousers

PM Mignini: What colour?

Knox: A t-shirt and a sweater

Interpreter: And a sweater

PM Mignini: A jumper?

[Ed note: end of overlap with Post #1]

Interpreter: No, sweater normally means felpa [cotton sweater]

PM Mignini: A sweater [felpa]? Ask her

Attorney: Was it made of cotton or wool?

Knox: I don’t know

Interpreter: She doesn’t know

PM Mignini: What colour?

Knox: I don’t remember… a long time has passed, I remember what I put on but I don’t remember exactly… I’m sorry…

Interpreter: She doesn’t remember

[46]

PM Mignini: You don’t remember

Interpreter: She remembers she put on but not what…

PM Mignini: And the trousers, what colour were they?

Knox: I don’t remember, I only remember I was wearing trousers… I think they were jeans…

Interpreter: She does not remember even this one… maybe they were jeans

PM Mignini: So around blue? Light blue?

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: What route did you follow to walk…

Knox: The same route I do every day, I walk down Corso Garibaldi I follow the lane close to the basketball court, and next there’s my house

Interpreter: Down Corso Garibaldi then along aside of the basketball court to the house, the route she did every day

PM Mignini: You walked down the stairs?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: On the side of the basketball court…

Knox: This road here that…
 
PM Mignini: Oh, so you walked down the lane not the…  the basketball court was on your right?

Knox: Yes

PM Mignini: So, excuse me, did you carry a bag, a [plastic] bag with the dirty clothes, or an empty [plastic] bag?

[47]

Knox: The clothes in a plastic bag

Interpreter: Yes a plastic bag with the dirty clothes

PM Mignini: With the dirty clothes. Well, please go on with the description… then…

Knox: When I arrived home the door was wide open and I thought it was strange, I thought that maybe somebody..  but nobody ever leaves the door open, however there was the possibility that someone went out without locking, maybe for a moment. I saw it I thought it was strange, I closed the door without locking it, because I didn’t know if someone was out,  I went into my room, I undressed and I went into the bathroom, I took a shower, first I took off my earrings, I took a shower and I used the bath mat on which there was some blood because I left my towels in my room. I saw the blood on the mat and I dragged it to my room to grab the towels. And then I took it back into the bathroom.

PM Mignini: Maybe you should stop

Interpreter: So when she arrived home she found the house door open, that was strange, she thought it was one of the girls who went out for a moment, she pulled it ajar [sic],  she did not lock it because she thought maybe someone left it open on purpose and she went in her room to remove her clothes to take a shower.  When she took a shower…

Knox: When I went to take a shower I forgot the towel in my room, I took off my earrings, I took a shower I had to use the bath mat and drag it to my room and then I dragged it back into the bathroom I put on my earrings

[48]

.. again, I saw the blood on the bath mat and in the bathroom but I did not think something terrible happened.

Interpreter: when she had gone [sic] into the bathroom to take a shower she forgot the towel and so there was this, how’s the word in Italian, bath mat which she used to go back and walk in her room to take the towel… she had taken away her earrings in the bathroom and from there she noticed there was some blood on the mat and on the basin, but she noticed it was strange but she didn’t think about something….

PM Mignini: I’m sorry I didn’t understand, but you took the bath mat to walk, to go in her bedroom?

Interpreter: Yes in order not to slip.. so to avoid walking barefoot

PM Mignini: When did you realize?

Knox: After the shower

Interpreter: After the shower

PM Mignini: When did you realize there was blood?

Interpreter: After the shower

Knox: I saw the blood when I entered the bathroom, I saw a little of blood just as I entered the bathroom, before taking the shower I took off my earrings, I took the shower and then I noticed blood on the bath mat

Interpreter: She noticed the blood while entering the bathroom, on the basin when she took off her earrings, then she had a shower and after the shower she was without the towel, so she used the mat to shuffle into her room

PM Mignini: Yes, so you saw blood before you took a shower?

[49]

Interpreter: Yes, in the basin

PM Mignini: In the basin

Interpreter: But on the bathmat, there she saw it when she was about to use the bathmat

PM Mignini: On the basin, where did you see it… where was the blood?

Knox: It was inside the basin, that was after… and it was also on the faucets

Interpreter: Inside the basin and on the taps

PM Mignini: So the blood was in the basin in the [inside] part… and on the tap… well, then… this was before taking a shower… then after taking the shower..

Interpreter: The towel was missing and she used

PM Mignini: She walked and realized that there was blood on the bathmat as well

Interpreter: Yes, yes

PM Mignini: And what did you do then?

Knox: I used the bathmat to walk to my room to get the towel and I went back into the bathroom, I think I washed my teeth, something I usually do, and when I dried myself I went back to my room and I put my clothes on.

Interpreter: So after she dried herself up in the bathroom and…

PM Mignini: Just a moment, before going on. The dirty clothes you had with you, where did you put them?

Knox: Between my bed and the wardrobe there is a heap of dirty clothes… there is a little space between the two and I usually put the dirty clothes there, behind the guitar… the guitar is not mine… the guitar is Laura’s..

Interpreter: So she put the [plastic] bag between the bed and the wardrobe, there is a space where she placed the guitar her friend has lent her

[50] 

Knox: Not the bag, just the clothes

Interpreter: And she placed the clothes, without the [plastic] bag, behind the guitar

PM Mignini: Why didn’t you put them into the washing machine?

Knox: Because I put all the dirty clothes in the same place, and when I’m ready to do a washing I put all the clothes in the washing machine

Interpreter: Because she was waiting to have some more to do a whole washing

PM Mignini: The bathmat, where did you… where did you take it after?

Knox: Once I finished using it to go and to come back from my room, I put it in the bathroom again

Interpreter: She put it back into the bathroom

PM Mignini: Were the bedroom doors open or closed?

Knox: No they were all closed…  Filomena’s door was closed, Meredith’s was closed and Laura’s I think it was slightly ajar

Interpreter: Only that one, the door of Laura was only a little bit open, so it seems to her, the other two were closed.

PM Mignini:  The other two were closed, you tried to open ... to knock?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: Why didn’t you try? With .... blood ... with the front door open .... I mean….

Knox: I didn’t see a reason to do it…

Interpreter: She did not see a reason for knocking.

[51]

PM Mignini: So, excuse me, you find the door open, the front door open and itself this is something… then you find the blood in the bathroom and you have a shower despite this and this is something, allow me to say that, for… a bit strange this one, I mean you could imagine that there could be some, there could be some ill-intentioned person in the house or around, you find the front door open and the blood in the bathroom and in spite of everything you took a shower. The rooms were closed. You didn’t attempt to knock. Did you enter the rooms? This is strange.

Knox: In my whole life nothing that was ever remotely similar to this has ever occurred to me… I do not expect to come back home and find there is something wrong  

Interpreter: She did not expect to find something wring because she never experienced something…

PM Mignini: But there was blood, there was the front door open

Knox: There was not so much blood.. it could have been anything… when I saw the open door I thought it was strange, it’s that the thing I found most strange, I did not think it was so strange to find blood in the bathroom…

PM Mignini: But did you enter the rooms? I asked if you entered the room

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: You didn’t even knock?

Knox: No because when I came in I called to hear whether there was somebody at home

[52]

Interpreter: As she entered the house she called to know if there was somebody

Knox: But there was no answer

Interpreter: But there was no answer

PM Mignini: Listen, where did you dry up yourself?

Knox: In the bathroom

Interpreter: In the bathroom

PM Mignini: The bathroom, the small one, the one nearby… yours?

Knox: Yes I took the towel from the room, I dragged myself into the bathroom [sic], I dried myself up a little more…

Interpreter: Yes she dried herself up in the bathroom more or less, then she finished drying herself up in her bedroom

PM Mignini: Listen, were there broken glasses?

Knox: When I came out of from the shower I used the bathmat to go to my room, I took the towel I obviously wrapped it around myself and then I went back to the bathroom and I dried myself up

Interpreter: Before, since after taking the shower she had no towel cause she had forgotten it she went back into her room with the bathmat, there she took the towel which she wrapped around herself and then she finished to dry up herself in the bathroom. She went back in her room when she had finished drying herself

PM Mignini: Still stepping on the bathmat? Still bringing the bathmat?

Knox: I dragged the bathmat, I made more or less a heap to enter my room, I jumped back on the bathmat again and meanwhile my feet had got dry…  and since my feet were dry I brought the bathmat back into the bathroom… I did not drag it back with my feet

[53]

Interpreter: To go back she picked it with her hands because her feet were dry, she was dry

PM Mignini: Listen, but what did you do after?

Knox: I put my earrings on again

Interpreter: She put on her earrings again

PM Mignini: Oh just one thing, I wanted to know, did you see the pieces of broken glass?

Knox: No, I didn’t see them. I saw them the second time I entered the house

Interpreter: No she didn’t see the broken glasses

PM Mignini: Another thing I wanted to know: did you enter the other bathroom? The one with the washing machine?

Knox: Yes after I dressed up I went to dry my hair, and I used the hairdryer that Laura and Filomena use so I went into the other bathroom which is a large bathroom, there is a part, an area where they store all the make-ups… and there is another part with the bathroom fixtures. I passed through the anteroom where they have the make ups, the hairdryer and…

Interpreter: Yes after she dressed up, then…

PM Mignini: Try to interrupt her, or it gets [difficult] 

Interpreter: She dressed up she went in the other bathroom of Laura and Filomena because they have the hairdryer to dry her hair, the bathroom has two areas, let’s say the toilet area and the hairdryer area.. she saw the toilet from a distance, she did not see well because she was not in front of it she was far, and she say some shit, yes

PM Mignini: The toilet paper was there too?

Knox: I did not look into the toilet. From a corner

Interpreter: She only looked from far distance, not at close distance

[54]

PM Mignini: Excuse me, excuse me, I wanted to know this: when you saw this thing, what did you think? I mean did you think that a foreign person entered the house or… ?

Knox: It’s then when I thought something could have happened because the open door and that little amount of blood did not worry me

Interpreter: The fact that the front door was open and the blood seemed strange to her but not so much to feel alarmed…

PM Mignini: I was talking about the faeces

Knox: It’s there that I thought there was something strange, I felt scared…  It’s when I decided to go back to Raffaele’s house, because I got scared…

Interpreter: On that circumstance when she sat the [big] bathroom she started to become afraid

PM Mignini: Have you seen that other times? Did you see un-flushed faeces in the toilet other times? 

Knox: No that’s why it was strange, because nobody in our house would do that

Interpreter: No she never saw that before and exactly for this reason it seemed strange to her and she started to worry

PM Mignini: At this point there were many elements, the blood, the open front door…

Knox: Yes I was worried, after when I saw this, I saw the open front door and also the blood and I thought okay, maybe, I don’t know, but when I saw the blood…

[short break; recording begins again at 01.35 pm]

PM Mignini: At 13.35 the recording resumes, so where were we, so you, I asked you if you looked inside the toilet, or not?

Knox: I didn’t look closely inside the toilet

Interpreter: Only from a distance

[55]

PM Mignini: And you saw the faeces, but this time you got worried, what did you think, because, we said that already, didn’t we? Have you seen them [faeces] other times in the house?

Knox: It’s there when I thought something was wrong

Interpreter: At that point she started to be worried and to think there was something wrong

Knox: I couldn’t imagine what it could be because the house was in order

Interpreter: But she was unable to imagine what it could be because the house was in order

Knox: First of all I didn’t know the phone number of the Police

Interpreter: She didn’t know the police number here in Italy

Knox: Second I didn’t know if it was necessary

Interpreter: She didn’t know if it was necessary

Knox: So what I decided to do, I was thinking about it, I thought what these things would mean put altogether

PM Mignini: What is “if it was necessary”, I’m sorry, I don’t understand…

Interpreter: To call the police, she thinks… it didn’t seem to her it was necessary to call the police

PM Mignini: But, excuse me, you found the house door open, blood in the house, closed bedroom doors, and you did not try to… they didn’t answer, you called and then you didn’t try to look inside the rooms, you found faeces in the bathroom, sign of the presence of a foreign person, and you didn’t feel the need to call the police or the Carabinieri?

[56]

Knox: No, because if you come into the house and nothing is missing it usually means that no foreign person has come in

Interpreter: No, because nothing was missing, and so it appeared to her that…

PM Mignini: I understand, but there was blood…

Knox: It was not much…

PM Mignini: Did you check if anything was missing?

Knox: I didn’t really check; there was my computer in my room, and that was a big clue that everything was ok in the rest of the house.

Interpreter: She saw the computer was still in her room, so this…

PM Mignini: But you didn’t look inside the other rooms

Knox: They seemed okay.

Interpreter: And for the rest everything seemed ok to her…

PM Mignini: The drawer with the money, did you look [there] where the money was supposed to be?

Knox: No, I didn’t think that a foreign person or a thief could have been there, and I didn’t even think about it

Interpreter: No, She didn’t think about a theft and she didn’t imagine…

PM Mignini: Ok, let’s go forward, then I’ll make… so you went to Sollecito, how were you dressed?

Knox: I was wearing the white skirt, the blue t-shirt and tights

Interpreter: White skirt, the light blue t-shirt and tights

PM Mignini: Well, what was the time, what route did you walk? Was it the usual rout to walk to Sollecito’s…? At what time did you arrive?

Knox: I think around midday

Interpreter: Around midday

[57]

PM Mignini: What did you say to Sollecito? Who was there… was there someone with him or was he alone?

Knox: He was alone, and when he opened the door he was in his underpants

Interpreter: Yes he was alone, and when he answered he was in his underpants

Knox: When I went to the house, I took the bucket and mop with me

Interpreter: So she said (same as before our pause) before returning back to Raffaele’s house, she picked up the bucket and mop she promised to bring him on the previous evening…

PM Mignini: What bucket? How was that? What colour?

Knox: Red

Interpreter: Red

PM Mignini: Red. So where did you take it from?

Knox: In the corridor, which is between my room and Meredith’s room, there is a wardrobe, it was in there

Interpreter: She picked it up from a wardrobe that is in the corridor between her room and Meredith’s [room]

PM Mignini: There was a cleaning rag or a… a towel… a rag?

Knox: It was a red bucket and the mop

Interpreter: She took, it was a set, a bucket, and a rag with stick [mop]…

PM Mignini: The mop

Lawyer: The bucket was red, the rag was not, the bucket was red

Interpreter: Yes, sorry

PM Mignini: And you picked this in the…? Where was this mop?

Interpreter: This bucket was in the wardrobe that is in the corridor

[58]

PM Mignini: So you arrived at Sollecito’s, and you found him in his underpants, and what did you tell him?

Knox: At the beginning I didn’t tell him anything because I didn’t know what to say to him, still I didn’t know if there was anything strange…

Interpreter: She didn’t speak immediately with him because she was not sure whether there was something strange or not

PM Mignini: What, you were not… Excuse me.. excuse me but you just told me everything was strange

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: I can’t [understand]… I mean you, what were you thinking, please explain yourself because this is a version that honestly…

Knox: I was trying to understand what the whole could mean

Interpreter: She was trying to understand how the things could fit together

Knox: Because I knew it was strange

PM Mignini: Thus, understand it by asking Sollecito about it, didnt you?

Knox: At the beginning I didn’t tell that to Raffaele because I didn’t know if there was something really serious… I understood there was something strange, but I didn’t understand if it was serious…

PM Mignini:  Contradiction is noted [for the record] here [io le contesto = a legal formula by which a judge points out a contradiction] that you…. that you…

Interpreter: But the situation was not worrying…

PM Mignini: Because about this [point]… in particular about this point you said contradictory things… well because you said, at a certain point “blood, open front door, faeces, etcetera, I became worried”, now you are saying “I was not worried”

[59]

any more, I asked Raffaele if I should worry”… so honestly, explain yourself, because it’s not clear at all

Knox: It seemed strange to me but not worrying or alarming

Interpreter: It seemed strange to me but not so worrying, alarming

Knox: Because the house is exactly how it should have been, except for those small things

Interpreter: At her house, in Amanda’s house, everything was as it should have, except for those details

Knox: I had the idea that if someone entered the house and did something there should be visible chaos

Interpreter: Had some foreign person come in they would have made more mess

PM Mignini: Well so, did it happen other times that you saw blood in the house, open house door, faeces in the toilet?

Knox: No

PM Mignini: This one was the first time?

Knox: Yes

PM Mignini: And… and Raffaele, when you asked him about it, what did he say to you?

Knox: I talked with him about it after we cleaned up the water…

Interpreter: She told him after they cleaned up…

PM Mignini: So before that you told him nothing

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: You cleaned up… but excuse me?... Let me understand, that was water… was that the water that spilled on the previous evening? At what time did it spill? Around 21 hours?

[60]

Knox: I don’t know because I didn’t look at the watch… it was after dinner…

Interpreter:  Ehm… after dinner

PM Mignini: Ok, what time could that be? When did the leakage occur? 21: 30?... 20: 30? Have no clue?

Knox: I think it was about 10: 30

Interpreter: More like half past ten

PM Mignini: Half past ten… and so almost, about twelve hours… had passed, if I’m not mistaken, well, but didn’t the water dry up?

Knox: No, there was a lot of it

Interpreter: No it was a lot of water

PM Mignini: But hey it’s twelve hours that had passed, I didn’t make the count now but anyway it’s many hours that had passed, so…

Interpreter: But there was still the water

PM Mignini: As if those hours hadn’t passed. And then, what did Raffaele tell you? When did you talk about it with him? After finishing drying up [the floor]…

Knox: While he was dressing up I dried up the floor and when he got dressed I had finished drying up, we started to have breakfast, and then I told him…

Interpreter: Amanda was drying up the water while Raffaele was getting dressed and then when they…

PM Mignini: So when you finished everything taking your time, you said “this happened”

Interpreter: After he had dressed and they had breakfast she talked with him about it

PM Mignini: Oh so he dressed up, you had breakfast, so like about an hour has passed… how long?

[61]

Knox: Yes, I don’t think quite a whole hour…

Interpreter: Almost an hour yes… about an hour…

PM Mignini: At that point you told him what had happened… what you had seen

Knox: Yes I told him the door was open, that there was some blood in the bathroom and there was the shit in the other bathroom… the first thing I told him was “look, hear about these strange things that happened to me this morning”

PM Mignini: And what did he say?

Interpreter: Yes she told him about these three elements that were in the house

PM Mignini: And what did he say? What did he say?

Knox: Yes it’s strange, you need to call your housemates…

Interpreter: He said “yes it’s strange, call your housemates”

PM Mignini: But excuse me, he didn’t say call the Police or the Carabinieri? Not even on that occasion?

Knox: No, he said to call the housemates, I didn’t think that someone entered the house but that something could have happened to the girls… thus he said “you should call the housemates”

Interpreter: She was thinking something happened to her housemates, not that someone, a foreign person had entered, so he suggested to her to call the housemates

PM Mignini: And did you [plural, referred to both] call them immediately?

Knox: I called Filomena

Interpreter: She called Filomena

PM Mignini: And what did Filomena say to you?

[62]

Knox: She was more worried than me…

Interpreter: Filomena was more worried than her…

Knox: She said she spent the night with her boyfriend and Laura…

PM Mignini: Excuse me… excuse me… excuse me… when you called, where did you call Filomena, from where did you call Filomena and when?

Knox: From Raffaele’s house

Interpreter: From Raffaele’s house

PM Mignini: After you talked with him

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: Is that after?

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: So, now I note a contradiction [for the record] from you, that Ms. Romanelli said she received a phone call from you, she reported that “you were very frightened… you told her you were very frightened, and you were going to call Raffaele Sollecito”. Thus on these findings, you called Filomena before you talked with Mr. Sollecito. And she, Filomena, urged you to call Police or Carabinieri

Knox: I’m sorry, I didn’t understand well

Interpreter: I’m sorry, I didn’t understand well

PM Mignini: So from statements given by Ms. Romanelli on Dec. 3., it comes out that you, Amanda, you called Filomena, you told her you had slept at Raffaele’s house, that you had gone back to the cottage in the morning and you found the front door open and some blood in the bathroom, you told her you took a shower anyway, that you were scared and that you intended to call Raffaele Sollecito. Then the thing seemed strange [to] Ms. Romanelli, and she urged you to call immediately Police and Carabinieri….

[63]

...This is what Ms. Romanelli says, according to what Ms. Romanelli says, you called her before talking to Raffaele Sollecito.

Knox: What I remember about that morning, the first time I remember I called Filomena it was when I was at Raffaele’s home… An interesting thing I didn’t remember about that morning is that I called my mother three times, but I had completely forgotten about it. So what could have happened is that I forgot I called Filomena or we failed to communicate because she doesn’t speak English very well and I don’t speak Italian well. So I may have forgotten about calling her before, or I could have talked with her with some difficulty… but… I remember the first time I called her it was at Raffaele’s home. I might be mistaken but the other thing I didn’t remember was I called my mother three times and I don’t even remember about it…

Interpreter: As for what concerns her, as for what Amanda remembers, she remembers she called Filomena the first time from Raffaele’s home. It may not be she called her before. She doesn’t remember about it because she also talked that morning three times [sic] with her mother, something about which she doesn’t remember. Or it could be that they didn’t understand each other very well, since Filomena doesn’t speak English well and Amanda doesn’t speak Italian well, so they didn’t understand each other well.

PM Mignini: How many times did you speak with Filomena that morning, how many?

Knox: I recall she called at least three times when I was at Raffaele’s. I called her and she told me to call Meredith. So I tried to call Meredith and then she called me again to ask me if Meredith answered and I told her no, she didn’t answer. I said “we must go home and check then” and while we were getting ready she called again asking if we had arrived at home yet.

[64]

Interpreter: She believes she spoke with Filomena three times because Filomena told her to call Meredith, something she did but she didn’t answer. After that Ms. Filomena wanted to know the answer, and then Amanda said she would go to her house again to see the situation, and then she called Filomena again.

PM Mignini: You alerted Filomena, let’s go forward with the… then we’ll see…  So you talked with Filomena, then you went with Mr. Sollecito, you went to the house, didn’t you? At what time did you arrive?

At this point, we put in the record that, at 13.55, clerk of the court Daniela Severi leaves and [Carabinieri] officier Paciotti takes her place.

Knox: I think I’ve left at around half past twelve

Interpreter: She thinks about half past twelve

Knox: I know it seems strange, I realize I should have arrived at the house before that time, before twelve. Because I washed (? unintelligible)

Interpreter:  She should have arrived at Raffaele’s house before twelve, earlier than she thought. Because she did…

PM Mignini: Did you look at the time? The time?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: Who was there when you arrived at the house?

(interruption of the recording)

PM Mignini: So we start again at 14.02

Lawyer: On a question by the lawyers, we ask if she was in possession of a watch

PM Mignini: Did you have a watch?

[65]

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: Well, but the cell phone had a watch, you had the time

Knox: Yes but I didn’t think about looking at the time

Interpreter: Yes but she didn’t think about looking at the time

PM Mignini: Well, so there were… what did you see inside the house when you came in?

Knox: It was there that we started to open the doors, I checked in Filomena’s room and there was some broken glass…

Interpreter: So she opened FIlomena’s room where she saw broken glass

Knox: Yes it was broken, on the floor and the window

Interpreter: On the floor and the window

PM Mignini: Did you enter the room?

Knox: No I just opened it [the door]

Interpreter: No she just opened the door

PM Mignini: Excuse me, just to understand better this point, the first time you saw the door closed you might even… you didn’t open it? You only opened on your return visit?

Knox: The first time I didn’t open the door

Interpreter: The first time she didn’t open the door

PM Mignini: It was closed. Now why did you open the door this time?

Knox: Because Filomena was afraid there could have been a burglary, a theft, so I opened to check if everything was ok.

Interpreter: Amanda opened Filomena’s room door because Filomena feared there could have been a theft and so she wanted to verify

[66]

PM Mignini: So then why didn’t you check? Didn’t you check if anything was missing?

Knox: I don’t know exactly what Filomena has in her room, I saw the computer on the table so I was not so much worried. The computer was the most valuable thing

Interpreter: So she didnt know of all Filomena’s items, but she immediately saw that Filomena’s computer was on the table, and so she thought…

PM Mignini: Well, and the door? Meredith’s door?

Knox: I was unable to open it

Interpreter: She couldn’t open it, the door of Meredith’s room

PM Mignini: Did you try to open the door?

Knox: Yes, first I tried to open it but it was locked so I knocked to see if she was sleeping, since it was locked I imagined she could be inside so I knocked to see if she was asleep

Interpreter: Yes she did try… yes she tried to open but the door was locked and so she knocked to see if she was inside, if she was sleeping…

PM Mignini: I go back for a moment… did you entered Filomena’s room, or you didn’t?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: You should be precise about this

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: You didn’t enter… so, as you saw that… you knocked at Meredith’s door you saw her door, her room… her room door was locked, at that point, did you try to call her?

Interpreter: Do you mean calling by voice?

[67]

PM Mignini: No, I mean calling her cell phone

Knox: I had already tried to call her three times from Raffaele’s home. I thought it would be easier to wake her up by knocking at the door.

Interpreter: She had tried to call Meredith three times already, when she was at Raffaele’s home, so she wanted to wake her up by knocking at the door

PM Mignini: And then what happened? … oh just a moment, [you mean] you went to look inside the bathroom on the right, from the entrance point of view, not in your bathroom, the other bathroom…

Knox: When I looked inside, after we tried to open her door and everything, we were in the kitchen, and he would call his sister [sic]. I went to check the bathroom, I didn’t do down to the bottom, I went into the anteroom and what I had previously seen it had slipped down. It was as if it [the toilet] had been cleaned.

Interpreter: Amanda came back into the larger bathroom while Raffaele was calling his sister, and from a distance she could see the faeces had slipped down, apparently it had been cleaned.

PM Mignini: But did you go to look?

Knox: I didn’t look inside, I checked from a distance

Interpreter: She didn’t get close to see, she saw that from a distance

PM Mignini: From a distance? It’s hardly understandable… from a distance of how many meters?

Knox: From the anteroom where I had dried my hair, I looked very quickly and I didn’t see anything and I got scared, because the man or whoever left the faeces had been there.

Interpreter: From the area where she dried her hair she gave a quick glance and she saw it was no more like it was before, it was clean, the faeces had slipped down and…

[68]

... thus at this point she got worried because apparently someone…

PM Mignini: At the same distance you… you saw that from the same distance?

Knox: Yes, I had gone a bit closer the first time

PM Mignini: It’s where you dried your hair?

Knox: In the bathroom anteroom in front of the mirror…

Interpreter: In front of the mirror, in the area in front of the mirror…

PM Mignini: At what distance is that from the toilet?

Knox: I don’t understand meters…

PM Mignini: You mean it was in the bathroom anteroom [apparently Mignini shows her a picture or a map, ed.]

Knox: From here… maybe I was here…

PM Mignini: It’s a couple of meters

Knox: The second time I was not at the mirror [sic] I was in the door [sic], I entered this way here and…

PM Mignini: At the same distance, so…

Knox: No, not at the mirror, because when I entered the mirror is this way, but I entered…

Interpreter: The second time from a bit more far away

Knox: But only a little more far

PM Mignini: Excuse me, you couldn’t see anything from there… there is the bathroom anteroom and the bathroom, where were you?

[69]

Knox: I was at the door, I mean I entered the anteroom yet I was very close to the door, that leads to the kitchen..

Interpreter: Between the bathroom anteroom and the bathroom. Yes she was in the anteroom

PM Mignini: From the anteroom, so I note a contradiction [for the record], that you can’t see anything from there, so you made a statement, you told Raffaele the faeces were not there anymore, despite that you didn’t see anything. Because you would not be able to…

Knox: Because the first time I also saw from a distance

PM Mignini: Ok, that’s ok… I doubt that you could see from there anyway… you didn’t go to check, you say “let’s see if the faeces are still there or not”?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: You remained outside [from the bathroom], you didn’t check, but you said to Raffaele “the faeces are not there anymore” in a worried fashion

Knox: I thought they were not there anymore

Interpreter: Because she thought they were not there

PM Mignini: Listen, so, then did you tell Romanelli about the break-in? about the broken glass? … Filomena?

Knox: Yes I called her and she said she was coming

Interpreter: Yes she called her and she said she was coming too

PM Mignini: And what was Raffaele doing in that moment?

Knox: We decided to call his sister

Interpreter: They decided to call Raffaele’s sister

Knox: And she said, call the Carabinieri or the Police

Interpreter: And Raffaele’s sister told them to call the Carabinieri

[70]

PM Mignini: What time it was? … excuse me I wanted, there’s another question I wanted to… did you have any vaseline at home? Vaseline?

Interpreter: At their house?

PM Mignini: At their house, the apartment, Via della Pergola

Knox: No I don’t use it, the only thing I know about Vaseline is Meredith always looked for it and when we went in a store together she would always go to see if there was any Vaseline… because she said it was very useful. I don’t think we had any, I don’t think, but I never use it

Interpreter: Amanda never used it, she only knows Meredith was always looking for it since she thought it was very useful, she [Knox] herself doesn’t know if there was any at home

PM Mignini: So you don’t know if Meredith had any?

Knox: I know she wanted it but I don’t know if she bought it

Interpreter: She knew she was going for it but she doesn’t know whether she bought it or found it

PM Mignini: Who arrived next?

Knox: After we called the police, I and Raffaele, we went outside because we felt very uncomfortable, two police men came…

Interpreter: After they called the police Amanda and Raffaele went outside and two police officers came

PM Mignini: So they called the police?

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: At what time?

Knox: I don’t know because it was Raffaele who called them.. they came.

[71]

Interpreter: She doesn’t know if they called the Police or the Carabinieri because it was Raffaele who did it but two officers came, dressed in uniform…

PM Mignini: Yes, yes… no, not in uniform

Interpreter: In plain clothes

PM Mignini: At what time did they arrive?

Knox: I didn’t look at the time

PM Mignini: I note the contradiction [for the record]  that the calls to the Carabinieri were done after the arrival of the Provincial Police [sic]… the Postal Police…

Knox: I did not call

Interpreter: Amanda didn’t call

PM Mignini: Well, did you see Raffaele calling?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: How many times did he call?

Knox: Once

Interpreter: Once

PM Mignini: Once? He called twice…

Lawyer: she doesn’t know

PM Mignini: So two officers of the Police came, did they identify themselves as such? [Did they say] “Polizia Postale”?

Knox: Yes, they showed us the badges

Interpreter: Yes, they did.

[72]

[Ed note: start of overlap with Post #3]

PM Mignini: Well, but in the meanwhile, did two other young people arrive?

Knox: Yes after the police arrived, I led them into the house, because I thought they were those Raffaele had called, and I showed them that the door was locked and I showed them the window was broken and in the meanwhile Filomena and the boyfriend arrived…

Interpreter: Yes when the two police officers arrived, she thought they were those Raffaele had called and so she showed them…

Knox: And also two friends of hers [arrived]

Interpreter: … Meredith’s locked room and Filomena’s room with the broken glass, with the broken window and then Filomena with her boyfriend arrived and also other two young people…

PM Mignini: Oh… so you… you entered, I ask you this once more, you didn’t enter Filomena’s room, did you enter the other rooms?

Knox: It’s not that I went to look around, but I opened Laura’s door, that was all ok, there the bed was done up. There was the computer, so it was all ok.

Interpreter: She opened Laura’s room and she saw it was all in order

PM Mignini: Did you enter the room?

Knox: Maybe one step but I didn’t go inside

Interpreter: Maybe she made a step but she didn’t go around much

PM Mignini: And in which other… did you enter other rooms?

Knox: I entered my room, and I tried to open the door of Meredith’s room.

[Ed note: end of overlap with Post #3]

Posted on 10/03/17 at 04:40 PM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Saturday, September 30, 2017

Netflixhoax 21(a) Omitted - This Very Telling Knox Questioning By Dr Mignini #1

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters





(Long post, Click here to go straight to Comments.)

1. The Very Dominant Netflix Takeway

Approximately four out of every five online Netflix reviews - about 160 out of about 200 - were somewhat, or strongly, or ISIS-level worked up about those Italians.

They were bothered or very ticked or totally outraged at the treatment of the supposedly saintly Amanda Knox, the complete lack of evidence, the cruel Italian and British media, and the even more cruel persecution of Knox (the inconvenient Sollecito is largely forgotten) by a moralistic loose-cannon prosecutor.

See these random examples by Netflix reviewers Adrienne Bischoff, and Rachel Brodsky, and Lorraine Courtney, and Natalie Finn, and Lou Lumenick, and Sara Stewart, and Genevieve Van Voorhis, all under-researched and all flaming Dr Mignini.

Not one of them mentions that around Perugia Knox was a notorious, frequently-high handful who directly caused the imprisonment of the drug dealer she was sleeping with, or that she was not actually an exchange student or in fact even enrolled at Perugia University.

Not one of them mentions that the body of evidence is actually enormous, or that the 2009 trial was very conclusive, or that she did actually have a team of lawyers, who publicly warned her to stop lying, or that the uniquely careful Italian system protected her via numerous reviews by judges, or that the claimed 54 hours of interrogation is a complete Knox fabrication.

Not one of them mentions that Knox let Patrick stew in prison for several weeks and cruelly destroyed his business despite his risk in hiring her without a work permit, or that she is a felon for life and still owes Patrick $100,000 in damages, or that Knox tried to criminally frame Dr Mignini and for that could still be prosecuted.

The Netflixhoax #20 post below featured Dr Mignini describing a comprehensive, routine and above-board investigation by a large team under judicial supervision. We have not yet seen any part of it questioned as irregular by any of the American lawyers and judges who read here. 

Now we post in three parts Dr Mignini’s one and only interrogation of Amanda Knox, on 17 December 2007. His brilliance is really on display here. The Netflix report made zero mention of this, at a guess because it clashes in multiple ways with Knox’s court testimony in June 2009 and her unchallenged lies on Netflix.

Dr Mignini agreed to this three-hour session at Knox’s own request, contrary to the advice of her lawyers, presumably made because she hoped to explain away all the small mountain of hard facts already compromising her.

It seemed clear to everybody after three hours, Knox herself included, that she had failed, and her lawyers halted the session at that point (see Part 3 coming).

Mignini now had a lengthy statement from Knox on the record reflecting a timid and erratic Knox utterly unable to explain why she fingered Patrick. This transcript played a major part in her calunnia conviction and 3-year sentence and her inability to persuade even the Hellman or Marasca/Bruno appeal courts that up was really down and so on.

Your task here and in the next two posts is perhaps to spot any hint of a “mad prosecutor” or fictitious sex-crimes or satanic rituals or moral judgments or 50-plus hour interrogations that 160 Netflix reviewers were so lathered-up about.

2. The 17 December Interrogation Knox Requested (Part 1 Of 3)

Note: This is the first hour of three hours. The excellent translation is by Yummi, Catnip and Kristeva. The original in Italian is in the Wiki Case File here; it has been accessed nearly 4,000 times.

Transcript of Interview 17 December 2007: Statement of interview Of Ms Amanda Knox

Criminal Proceeding n. 9066/07, r.g.n.r. Public Prosecutor’s Officer Perugia

On the day of 17.12.2007 At the Perugia Prison

Those Officials Present:

Public Prosecutor Dr Giuliano Mignini
Daniela Severi – Clerk of the Court
Agent Danilo Paciotti – Carabinieri Section Judicial Police
Giacinto Prefazio – Head of Flying Squad Perugia Police
Monica Napoleoni – Deputy Superintendent Perugia Police
Julia Clemesh – Interpreter

[Ed note: Amanda Knox was present with her legal team of Costa & Ghirga; Dr Costa resigned after this interview, apparently unable to see a way to defend her if this was her best shot.] 

Complete statement of the declarations made as a person being investigated on the facts by Ms Amanda Knox.

Public Prosecutor Mignini: It’s 10:45 am I’m assisted for the redaction of this current statement. The date is 17 December 2007, in the proceeding 9066/07 mod. 21 in Perugia, Capanne Prison, before the Public Prosecutor Dr Giuliano Mignini, assisted for the redaction of the statement by Clerk of the Court Daniela Severi and by Carabinieri Agent Danilo Paciotti from the Carabinieri Judicial Police Section qualified for recording, present for investigative exigency Dr Giacinto Profazio, head of the Perugia Flying Squad, and Deputy Superintendent of the Perugia Flying Squad Monica Napoleoni, also present, and the interpreter Dr Julia Clemesh, born at Frankfurt-on-Maine?

Interpreter: Yes.

PM Mignini: Federal Republic of Germany, 17 September 1974, resident in Perugia, Via [address edited]. Amanda Knox has appeared, since she in a state of detention audio recording is provided for and the other requirements under Article 141 bis of the Criminal Procedure Code and the other requirements of Law. A summary report is also provided for; she is invited to declare her particulars and whatever else is required to identify her with the admonition of the consequences which apply when one refuses to give them or gives them falsely, [2] in answer. Now then, you have to tell me your particulars. And you have to tell me, exactly. So, what’s your name? You have to say, I am and my name is…

Knox: My name is Amanda Knox.

PM Mignini: Born at? You see, you have to tell me…

Knox: Born in Seattle.

PM Mignini: Seattle, Washington State, isn’t that?

Knox: Yes in the United States on the 9th July 1987.

PM Mignini: What date sorry? The…

Knox: The 9th July ’87.

PM Mignini: 9 July ’87. Resident at?

Knox: Here?

PM Mignini: No, resident in the United States in Seattle…

Knox: 37th Avenue… a pen…

PM Mignini: She needs to write it down… a pen… yes so yes notice is given that 9821. Now then, can you speak Italian? Do you understand it a bit?

Knox: Yes but I prefer to speak in English.

PM Mignini: Yes, but in any case do you understand Italian a little bit?

Knox: Yes, yes but I can help better…

PM Mignini: Do you have a pseudonym? A nickname?

Knox: In the soccer team they called me Foxi Noxi (naughty fox, ndr)

Interpreter: In the soccer team they called her Foxi Noxi.

PM Mignini: Can you dictate it for the…

Interpreter: How to spell it?

PM Mignini: They call me Foxi Noxi.

Knox: Only when I play soccer.

PM Mignini: Nationality from the United States, residence as above, domicile as above, place of employment? … Where do you work, are you a student

Knox: I’m a student.

Interpreter: Yes, student.

PM Mignini: Marital status, single, is it? Conditions of your specific life, social relations, study title?

Knox: I’ve finished high school.

Interpreter: She hasn’t graduated yet.

PM Mignini: High school diploma.

Interpreter: Yes senior high yes.

PM Mignini: Occupation? ‘I am…’ You’re a university student?

Knox: Yes.

PM Mignini: “I’m a university student [male adjectival form], university student [female adjectival form].” ?

Knox: Yes.

PM Mignini: Listen, do you have real estate? Do you own houses, land?

Knox: No.

PM Mignini: Propertyless. Are you under other criminal trials, besides this one, involved in other processes or proceedings?

Knox: No.

[4] PM Mignini: Do you have any convictions under the State or in foreign countries? Careful, you need… Whether you have proceedings in foreign countries. Do you understand? Proceedings in the investigation phase.

Knox: No.

Interpreter: The second question instead?

PM Mignini: Whether you have had convictions, in the Italian State or in foreign countries… so therefore also in the United States…

Lawyer: I would like that you explained…

PM Mignini: But is that a crime?

Lawyer: No administrative.

PM Mignini: You shall say it, have you had fines, have you paid fines in the United States

Knox: Yes

PM Mignini: Yes? … But was it about facts constituting an offence? You don’t know this… or was it facts which constitute administrative breach

Knox: For having made noise

PM Mignini: I understand. Do you exercise or have you exercised public offices or services or of public necessity? No. Have you ever carried out public duties? Electoral for example…

Knox: No

PM Mignini: Public duties no. Now then you therefore have the right to nominate a defender, you have two defenders, you confirm the nominating of these defenders that are present, therefore you confirm the nominating of the advocates Luciano Ghirga of the Perugia Bar and Advocate Carlo Dalla Vedova of the Rome Bar, present at the taking down of this document. Also present as collaborator from the Dalla Vedova Law Firm, advocate Giancarlo Costa also of the Rome Bar. Now then. [5] The choice of domicile, where do you want the notices of this proceeding to go to?

Interpreter: In Italy right?

Knox: To the office of my lawyer

PM Mignini: I confirm the choice of domicile as at the firm of advocate Ghirga. The Public Prosecutor therefore notifies to you the charges that you have seen in the precautionary custody orders which are the offences contrary to Articles 110, 81 main paragraph, 575, 578, and 609 bis of the Criminal Code, committed in Perugia on the night of the 1st and the 2nd of November 2007 against Meredith Kercher in acts as registered. Statements of summary information, findings pursuant to Art 354 and 360 CPC searches and seizures, statemented search proceedings and all the elements mentioned by the Perugia Re-examination Court in the order dated 30 November, 5 December 2007. Therefore all the elements against you there are declarations by persons informed of the facts, there are the results of the tests carried out by the Scientific Police, therefore the traces, in particular the trace on the knife, the DNA trace on the knife, the DNA in the bidet, and all the other results mentioned by the Perugia Re-examination Court in the 30 November, 5 December 2007 order. Therefore you shall make known what you consider to be useful for your defence.

Lawyer: Excuse me, we’re given to understand that there have been indicated things, in the 30 pages of the re-examination some other things have been indicated, so you put them to her and invite her to say things useful for the trial, you’ve given four or five examples, if… I don’t believe that it acquits your task to put them to her.

PM Mignini: Now then look. Well she was found to be…

Lawyer: You’re going through the evidence against her, can we describe it like that? Now then.

PM Mignini: Of course. So it resulted during the course of the investigations there was a series of items of evidence, items against her that are, that derive from the declarations of persons informed of the facts, in particular the declarations made by, from some declarations that have been made by you yourself during the phase, during, in the period in which you were a person informed of the facts, so prior to the 6th November 2007, there are also declarations by Raffaele Sollecito when he was still a person informed of the facts, and declarations by Raffaele Sollecito at the Validation Interview, because at the Validation hearing Sollecito had responded to the interrogatory and has therefore, his declarations are therefore fully utilizable and are… now then from these declarations, then I’ll pass to the other items, from these declarations one can deduce a reconstruction that in the opinion of the Public Prosecutor’s Office is not credible, of what had occurred. Of what had occurred, things are different, I’ll explain to you then in particular it’s not credible in the opinion of the Public Prosecutor’s Office, what was and then what had been declared by Sollecito even during his interrogation, the whole reconstruction that had been made of both your whereabouts, yours and Sollecito’s, the night of the 1st and 2nd of November 2007. In particular what happened the morning of the 2nd November up until 13:00. Then there are the findings, the DNA trace, the DNA trace on Sollecito’s knife and on the blade of this knife there’s Meredith’s DNA. Then on the handle there’s your DNA, the blood traces therefore in the bidet, yours, also in the washbasin.

Lawyer: On the bidet there’s DNA and in the washbasin.

PM Mignini: On the bidet of her and of Meredith and in the washbasin there’s blood, her haematic traces. Then there are, in the ambit of fingerprint tests that were done, the prints despite she lives, despite she lived in that house and she was the person who remained, who had moved around the inside of the house as [7] the last one there, up until… there was one trace only on a glass, only one print of hers. And this, this makes one think that there had been, that she had removed her other prints, because it isn’t, in the opinion of the Public Prosecutor’s Office, it’s not likely that she had, that there would be only one single print of hers from… although she lived in the house. Now then. It’s these ones. Then there are the findings they are basically these ones. Now then. There are also further findings that derive from declarations made by persons informed of the facts. I’ll limit myself to mentioning this. So you have the possibility, I invite you to specify what you consider useful for your own defence with the advice that your declarations can be used against you, right? But in any case you have the right to not answer, you can refuse to answer any question but in any case the Proceedings will take their course. Even if you don’t answer. Then if you make declarations on the facts that concern the responsibility of others you’ll take on as regards these facts the role of witness with all the… now then, so you intend to answer?

Knox: Yes

PM Mignini: First of all do you intend to answer? Then ‘I intend to answer’, ‘I claim I’m innocent’, right? What do you say? Do you admit the deed or not? Admit the facts that are being put to you or not? … That is you have been accused of the murder-in-company of Meredith Kercher and sexual violence. You, do you admit this fact or else do you protest your innocence?

Knox: Innocent.

PM Mignini: I protest my innocence. So… when did you arrive in Perugia?

Knox: The first time I had arrived with my sister for three days but the second
Interpreter: When?

Knox: It was August that I had come the first time in my life here

[8] Interpreter: This year?

Knox: Yes, for three days.

Interpreter: The first time was August of this year for three days with her sister.

PM Mignini: And your sister is called?

Knox: Diana.

Interpreter: Diana

PM Mignini: And then?

Knox: And I went to Germany for a bit and then I came for the second time to Perugia to stay on the 20th September…

Interpreter: In August for three days, then she went to Germany and came back to Perugia to stay, to remain for a while…

PM Mignini: In Germany where?

Knox: Grunenwald near to Hamburg where my aunt lives.

Interpreter: Where her aunt lives near Hamburg.

PP Mignini: And your aunt is called?

Knox: Dolly which is the diminutive of Dorothy.

Interpreter: Dorothy. She came back to Perugia on 20 September

PM Mignini: On the 20th September and you found, in the Via della Pergola house who did you find when you’d come back to Perugia on the 20th September?

Knox: In reality I found Laura the three days that I was here with my sister and they introduced me to Filomena and we had decided to live together. I had met Laura in front of the University for Foreigners, we had spoken of the fact that [9] she was looking for a flatmate and I had met Filomena and we had decided to live together…

Interpreter: In August during the three days she had met the housemate name of Laura

PM Mignini: Mezzetti?

Knox: I don’t know… we were calling her Laura.

Interpreter: She doesn’t know.. she met Laura in those three days when she was looking for a housemate and then they had agreed that in September she would have gone…

PM Mignini: And it was only Laura there?

Interpreter: She had met her, when she had gone to see the house, she had also met Filomena

PM Mignini: Filomena Romanelli

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: Meredith wasn’t there?

Knox: No

PM Mignini: Listen, do you use drugs?

Interpreter: Marijuana sometimes

Knox: I take marijuana

PP Mignini: Marijuana. Only marijuana?

Knox: In the form of hashish

Interpreter: Marijuana in the form of hashish

[10]  PM Mignini: No other substances?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: And up until when have you used it?

Knox: Do you want to know when I started? Ah no, you want to know up until when …

Interpreter: The last time the first of November? But you asked up until when right?

PM Mignini: Up until when, yes, yes the first of November. In the evening?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

Knox: Yes

PM Mignini: With Sollecito?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

Knox: With Raffaele yes

PM Mignini: And how much did you have that evening?

Knox: We shared a joint…

Interpreter: She had shared a joint, yes they had shared a joint.

PM Mignini: From whom had you obtained this substance?

Lawyer: From whom had you obtained it?

Knox: I didn’t obtain it myself… it was Raffaele’s I simply used his smoke

Interpreter: It was a joint of Raffaele’s.

PM Mignini: And you don’t know who he got it from

[11] Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: And before, when you had come to Perugia had you used it? Before the first of November.

Interpreter: Ah, before the first of November?

PM Mignini: Yes

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: And from whom were you getting it?

Knox: I was smoking it with friends I never bought any… I wasn’t buying it since for example I would give ten euro to Laura and she used to buy it for me…

Interpreter: She never bought it directly herself only with friends they shared joints

PM Mignini: And who were these friends?

Knox: A flatmate…

Interpreter: A housemate, the two Italian housemates and the neighbours down below.

PM Mignini: Who of these? Giacomo?

Knox: We were all together and we were smoking all together… There was a young man who was living on the floor below who was called Riccardo and we didn’t use to visit him, so we weren’t smoking with Riccardo and with the others yes.

Interpreter: Everybody. It was shared amongst everybody, except for a young man who is called Riccardo who had never been around, who happens to be downstairs who had never been in their company, apart from him with the others

[12]  PM Mignini: And Meredith was using it?

Knox: Sometimes but not as often as me… not as much

Interpreter: Eh sometimes times but not much.

PM Mignini: But who was giving it to you? … Do you know who gave it to you?

Knox: No, I don’t know who was giving it, we were smoking together but I don’t know who was giving it…

Interpreter: The same story, only in company.

PM Mignini: Listen and when did you start working for Patrick, for Lumumba?

Knox: Straight after when I had arrived I had looked for a job, I knew a friend of Laura’s called Jube (phonetic) and who was working for Patrick… I don’t know the day, I can’t remember the day. It was October, I think…

Interpreter: Then when she had arrived she was looking for a part-time job through, there was a boy called Juve (phonetic) who was working with Patrick and he was a friend of the housemate Laura, through Laura and this boy Juve (phonetic) she ended up at Patrick’s in October it would have been.

PM Mignini: October?

Knox: I don’t remember precisely.

Interpreter: She doesn’t remember exactly.

PM Mignini: And the salary, what was it? That is how much was Patrick giving you?

Knox: Around 5 euro an hour…

Interpreter: Around 5 euro an hour

PM Mignini: How many hours were you working at Patrick’s?

Knox: It depended on how many people there were at the beginning I was working every day up until around… between midnight and 2 am, starting at 10. But I was also [13] handing out flyers during the day, independent of how many hours I was working her was giving me 15, 20 euros at the end of the day… and so it was…

Interpreter: Depending on the amount of work, how many people there were in the pub, she used to finish work between midnight and two in the morning and she used to start at ten. During the day she was distributing flyers, always for Patrick, and Patrick at the end of the evening used to give her 15 to 20 euro and doing the sums it came to 5 euro an hour on average.

PM Mignini: I want to know this, what were the work hours? If you can repeat it.

Knox: Depending on if there were things to do, I was finishing at midnight or at two.

Interpreter: She was starting at ten and depending on how much work there was she was finishing between midnight and two AM.

PM Mignini: Every day or else only some days only during the week?

Knox: At the beginning it was every day but when they had arrested me the last two weeks I had worked twice a week.

PM Mignini: What days?

Knox: Thursday and Tuesday…

Interpreter: Tuesday and Thursday

PM Mignini: Did it ever happen that you weren’t, beyond that, apart from the evening of the first of November right? Before, did it happen that you didn’t go to work one night on which you had work, right? That you hadn’t gone and for what reason… anyone advised you?

Knox: If it had ever happened… let’s see… did it ever occur to me? It could have happened that one time I didn’t go because I was feeling sick…

[14] Interpreter: It’s possible that she didn’t go there one time because she was ill

PM Mignini: So only on one occasion. So the evening of the first?

Interpreter: She said maybe also one other time

PM Mignini: Ah so

Interpreter: But she wasn’t feeling well

PM Mignini: Ah because she wasn’t feeling well

Interpreter: Yes, yes, to be precise she doesn’t remember

PM Mignini: You weren’t feeling well and you’d informed Patrick about not being well and so you couldn’t go

Interpreter: This she didn’t say. She hasn’t said this.

PM Mignini: You say: ‘it could have happened that I hadn’t gone because I was sick once’

Interpreter: You’ve asked apart from the first of November, true?

PM Mignini: yes, yes

Interpreter: So we speaking of apart from the first of November, the question is whether she had informed Patrick…

PM Mignini: The question is if on other occasions she had not been able to go to work because she had been advised… on other occasions… ask her the question

Lawyer: Eh but this one is different to the one from before

PM Mignini: Now then the question that I asked before was this one: did it happen at other times she had not gone to work?

Interpreter: And the answer was yes, maybe when she was feeling ill

[15]  PM Mignini: She was feeling ill, did it happen on other occasions that you hadn’t gone to work because Patrick had called you telling you not to go to work?

Knox: No, it never happened

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: It never happened. Listen, how were you maintaining yourself? That is how much were you earning? How much let’s say per week were you earning from Patrick?

Knox: I had saved that I had had from my parents…

Interpreter: The money from her parents and also her savings she had from before

PM Mignini: But how much from Lumumba were you earning in a week? You’ve said so right? … I think

Interpreter: From 15, 20 euro a night

PM Mignini: A night, so 30 euro a week broad brush right? Because it was two days

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes.

PM Mignini: And the parents, how much were your parents sending you, what amount were they sending you and how often?

Knox: They were sending me each month more or less what was needed to pay the rent…

Interpreter: They were sending her enough each month to pay the rent

PM Mignini: How much? So how much was the rent?

Knox: 300 euro a month… but they were giving me a bit more… they used to put in my bank account…

[16]  Interpreter: 300 euro a month. But they were giving her a little bit extra, they were putting in her account. Her parents were putting it into Amanda’s account

PM Mignini: So they were giving you a little bit more, so how much? How much, around 400… 500 euro I don’t know…

Knox: Maybe around 400 euro…

Interpreter: Around 400 euro yes

PM Mignini: Oh, and then your savings, isn’t that? … Yes

Knox: Yes

PM Mignini: Right then, can you tell us how much money you had, the first of November… eh?

Knox: In my bank account?

Interpreter: Where did she have this money? …

PM Mignini: How much did you have and where did you have it? If you had accounts…

Knox: Okay, it was in my bank account

Interpreter: In her savings account

Knox: …I think around about 5 thousand dollars but I don’t know

Around [sic: read: Interpreter]: She thinks around 5 thousand dollars in her savings account

PM Mignini: Savings account at which bank?

Knox: Washington Mutual

Interpreter: Washington Mutual

PM Mignini: Did you have an ATM [=cash dispenser]? Or a credit card?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

[17]  PM Mignini: Right then, this ATM [card] where is it? This card or credit card?

Knox: In my wallet

Interpreter: In the wallet that has been seized

PM Mignini: How much had you withdrawn the last time before the first of November?

Knox: I always take out 250 euro because that’s the maximum and I always take the maximum because there’s a cost to pay for each withdrawal so I always take the maximum… and I put in the drawer of my desk…

Interpreter: She doesn’t recall exactly which day she would make withdrawals, she knows that she always used to withdraw the maximum because she has to pay a fee and the maximum is 250 euro and this money she used to put in the little drawer of the desk at home

PM Mignini: In your room?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: And so you had 250 euro on the first? How much did you have?

Lawyer: Translate the question for her

Knox: In my room?

PM Mignini: I’m asking you where you had it, where were you holding it?

Knox: I think I could have had around 300 euro… about… in my desk…

Interpreter: She thinks she might have had 300 euro in total in the little drawer

Knox: Usually I would take 20 euro and I would put it in my wallet when I needed to

Interpreter: and she would take 20 euro that she would put in her wallet

[18] PM Mignini: Listen, did you know Guede? Rudy?

Knox: Vaguely…

Interpreter: Vaguely

PM Mignini: How did you know him? Where did you meet him?

Knox: I’d encountered him a couple of times, I’d seen him at my place of work and also in the city centre and I’d encountered him with my neighbours in the city centre and I’d also seen him at the basketball court… I was there with all the others in my neighbours’ house

Interpreter: At the basketball court?

Knox: No

Interpreter: At a party at the neighbours’ house?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: She’d met him she thinks in Patrick’s pub, no, she had seen him she thinks in Patrick’s pub and then she’d seen him at the basketball court and at a party in the neighbours’ house below.

PM Mignini: Now, when had you known him?

Lawyer: How much time before

PP Mignini: How much time before, with when you’d arrived in September…

Knox: I believe that it was around mid-October but truly I don’t remember…

Interpreter: I think towards the middle of October

PM Mignini: Did you used to visit him? Guede

[19]  Interpreter: Meaning?

PM Mignini: If she visited him with a certain regularity in short, with a certain, whether they were going out together

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: Did it happen that you had to give him some money?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: Listen, but were you, were you missing any money that night of the first and second?

Knox: I don’t know I didn’t look… the 2nd I didn’t look…

Interpreter: She didn’t look in the room

Lawyer: But when?

Interpreter: The 2nd of November

Lawyer: Ah right

Interpreter: On the 2nd of November she didn’t look

PM Mignini: And where did Meredith used to keep her money?

Knox: I don’t know

Interpreter: She doesn’t know

PM Mignini: Listen, when was the last time you see Guede?

Knox: I think that the last one is that of which I have already spoken and that is a party at my neighbours’ house on the floor below

[20]  Interpreter: The last time she thinks that it was at the party at the neighbours’ house below

PM Mignini: Which had taken place when?

Lawyer: More or less

PM Mignini: More or less, if you don’t recall…

Knox: Towards the end of October…

Interpreter: Towards the end of October

PM Mignini: The end of October, so close to the 31st? Eh the end of October… the end of October… in any case you don’t remember. Listen, did Rudy know Patrick? Had he visited his pub?

Knox: Yes I’d seen him at the pub but I’d seen him only once…

Interpreter: She had seen him in the pub but she’d seen him only one time

PM Mignini: But do you know whether those two knew each other?

Knox: I don’t think so but actually I don’t know, I didn’t get the impression that they knew each other…

Interpreter: She doesn’t think that they knew each other, she doesn’t know

PM Mignini: You know or you don’t know?

Interpreter: She’s not sure about it but what it looked like to her is that they weren’t acquainted…

PP Mignini: What’s the basis of this conviction?

Knox: Because everybody that knows Patrick go straight to him to talk with him and Rudy didn’t do that…

Interpreter: Because everyone who knows Patrick goes straight to him to talk to him and Rudy didn’t do that

PM Mignini: But did they greet each other, did you see them…

[21]  Knox: Patrick greeted everybody who was coming in…

Interpreter: Patrick greeted everybody who was coming in

PM Mignini: Listen, were you getting on OK with Lumumba?

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: There were no problems between you?

Lawyer: Of what nature?

PM Mignini: Problems of any sort I don’t know …

Lawyer: Money ones, personal ones, right…

PM Mignini: Problems I mean in general eh …

Knox: No we were getting on OK…

Interpreter: No, they were going OK

PM Mignini: Listen, Lumumba was irascible?

Interpreter: Was?

PM Mignini: Irascible [=bad-tempered], that is easily annoyed, was he irritable?

Knox: No he’s a relaxed young man, calm…

Interpreter: No he’s a calm young man.

PM Mignini: Listen and who had the keys to the house at Via della Pergola?

Knox: Me, Meredith, Filomena and Laura…

Interpreter: All four of the girls

PM Mignini: All four of the girls

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: No one else had keys?

[22] Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: One other thing, your rooms… inside the flat there were your rooms, did you use to lock your rooms or leave them open?

Knox: When we were going out? … I never used to close my door, it was always open, Laura and Filomena used to close their doors but I don’t believe that they would lock them, even when they were going out they would close their doors but not lock them… but I had never tried to open their doors. Meredith sometimes used to lock her door, for example if she was inside and was getting changed, and mine was always open…

Interpreter: Now then, only Meredith was locking her door when she was getting changed, she said in substance, otherwise no one used to lock their rooms

PM Mignini: But on the occasion of… when the police arrived and they found themselves in front of Meredith’s door isn’t that? What did you say? Did you by chance say that Meredith never used to lock her door, or that instead she did?

Knox: I said that it was strange that it was locked and she wasn’t answering while usually if the door was locked it meant that she was inside and the fact that she wasn’t answering was strange…
Interpreter: It was strange that it was closed without Meredith responding, because normally when it was closed…

PM Mignini: To us it results that she didn’t use to lock her door. So then I’ll put this to you [contestare= (leg.) to formally point out a contradiction]. That is, that it was only during one absence of hers for a few days that she locked her room

Knox: She doesn’t do it that often, it isn’t a frequent thing I would say that there were times in which I had tried to open her door to say hello to her and it was locked [23] and she was inside… and when instead she was out I had never tried to open her door. So I don’t know if it’s locked…

Interpreter: It happened that, when Meredith wasn’t home she had never tried to open the door, Amanda had never tried to open the door, only it happened that she wanted to say hello opening [it] and had said, “It’s locked”

PM Mignini: I haven’t understood this, that is … that is she used to lock the door or not? According to what you’re saying… she used to lock the room or not?

Interpreter: Only when she was…

PM Mignini: Only when she was getting changed you say

Interpreter: Yes, yes

Lawyer: No also when she went away

PM Mignini: And when she went away…

Interpreter: Also once when she had gone away for a few days

PM Mignini: Sure, sure… oh, did you get on well with Meredith?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: There was never any ups and downs in your relationship?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: Oh, did Meredith ever go with you to Sollecito’s? To Sollecito’s house

Interpreter: Whether she had gone…

PM Mignini: No, whether Meredith had gone with you to Sollecito’s house?

Knox: No

[24] Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: She had never gone there?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: So she had never been for lunch at Sollecito’s house?

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: You had noticed prior to 2 November eh? I mean, you had noticed… I mean the 2nd, had you noticed traces of blood in the bathroom prior, in the days prior? … on the mat, in the bathroom next to Meredith’s room

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: Oh, so… then let’s go back to this day later. Now I want to go back a step. Where did you spend the night of Halloween between the 31st of October and the 1st of November?

Knox: I had been at Le Chic for a bit, then I left and went out to the Merlin because I wanted to meet a friend and then around two in the morning I had met up with Raffaele outside the cathedral and we had decided to go to his place…

Interpreter: On the 31st of October she had been at the Le Chic pub

PM Mignini: Yes, up until what time? And with who?

Knox: I was there I knew more or less everybody but I was there on my own account… I wasn’t there working

Interpreter: She wasn’t working but she was there

[25]  PM Mignini: You were there like that

Interpreter: Yes with her friends

PM Mignini: With her friends… who were these friends?

Knox: I had arrived alone, I know Lumumba, I know other people, other classmates, I know that there were people who go there exactly to have fun at the pub

Interpreter: There’s this young man who works for Patrick, Patrick there were classmates, at the Chic

PM Mignini: Of yours?

Interpreter: Yes, yes

PP Mignini: And who were these girls?

Knox: They were girls from Kazakstan who used to always be together…

Interpreter: They were girls who stayed in a group, these girls from Kazakstan and who came to find her a few times

PM Mignini: And you don’t remember their names? Was Raffaele there?

Interpreter: No

Knox: No

PM Mignini: He wasn’t there and where was he, Raffaele?

Interpreter: She said that after…

PM Mignini: Now then up until what time… up until what time were you at Le Chic?

Knox: I think around one…

Interpreter: Around one

PM Mignini: Till one and then?

[26]  Interpreter: Then she had gone to meet a friend in front of the Merlin pub

PM Mignini: Who is this friend? The friend who was waiting at the Merlin, in front of the Merlin?

Knox: He’s a boy who works at Coffee break it’s an internet café with coffee … Spiros

PM Mignini: A Greek?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: And then where did you go?

Knox: Together with Spiros and some of his friends,

Interpreter: Now then she had said before that she had met the Greek (change of tape) she had gone to some other pub

PM Mignini: Where?

Interpreter: In the centre, she doesn’t remember

PM Mignini: In which area in the centre?

Knox: In the area of Le Chic and of the Merlin…

Interpreter: Around near the Merlin pub and the Le Chic pub… in that zone there… around there

PM Mignini: She doesn’t know how to point it out?

Knox: I have never been before to the other pubs

Interpreter: She hadn’t gone to visit other pubs before

PM Mignini: Listen, do you know where and with who she spent that night of Halloween, Meredith?

[27]  Interpreter: She’s said that after the fountain she had met Raffaele, after going around a bit with him she had gone to Raffaele’s house

PM Mignini: At what time did you meet Raffaele?

Interpreter: At two

PM Mignini: In the morning and then you returned home with Raffaele. And do you know and with who she had spent that night of the 31st October, Meredith?

Knox: She went out with her English friends

Interpreter: She went out with her English friends

PM Mignini: Did you have, the English friends are you able to give me their names?

Knox: Sophie, Amy I don’t remember all their names but I know that Sophie and Amy were there

Interpreter: Amy, Sophie…

PM Mignini: And where did they go?

Knox: I think they went to the Merlin it’s what she had said

Interpreter: She said that they had gone to the Merlin pub

PM Mignini: Merlin…

Lawyer: Why does she know? Let’s ask her that, excuse me, eh?

Interpreter: Because Meredith had told her so

PM Mignini: That is Meredith had told you that they had gone there because you had asked Meredith to go out with you that night?

Knox: In the afternoon I asked her if she had plans and she had told me that she would have been with her friends at the Merlin pub and I had said to her “maybe we’ll see each other there”… but we hadn’t set a time…

[28] Interpreter: In the afternoon she had… Amanda had asked Meredith if she had some plans for the evening and Meredith had answered that she was going with her friends to the Merlin pub

PM Mignini: Listen, do you have… do you know any Spanish boys or Spanish girls?

Knox: Spanish?

Interpreter: Spanish eh [male gender]?

PM Mignini: Yes, girls as well

Knox: I might know some but usually I don’t ask where they come from

Interpreter: It’s possible but she doesn’t ask where they’re from specifically.

PM Mignini: Listen when you did you find out that Ms Romanelli and Ms Mezzetti would not have been there? Ms Romanelli, Laura and Filomena…

Knox: I discovered it when I had called Filomena on the morning of the second.

Interpreter: On the morning of the second when Amanda had called Filomena, she had found out that she had not been…

PM Mignini: And about Laura, did you know?

Knox: Filomena had told me that Laura was in Rome

Interpreter: Now then that morning of the 2nd of November Filomena had said to Amanda that Laura was in Rome.
(interruption of recording)

PM Mignini: Now then at this point the recording resumes at 11:50 am and I repeat the question, what did you do on the afternoon of the 1st of November and during that night between the 1st and the 2nd? Oh and the morning of the 2nd obviously.

[29]

Knox: When I had woken up in the morning I was at Raffaele’s house, the 1st of November, and I went to my house to have a shower to change myself, I had already spoken to Raffaele and he had said to me that he would have come over to my place, when he would have woken and everything… So what I did was that I studied and then I put away my linens [whites]…

Interpreter: The morning of the 1st of November, so that night she had slept at Raffaele’s house

PM Mignini: The night between the 31st and the 1st?

Interpreter: Yes, in the morning she had woken up at Raffaele’s, after which she’d gone, gone back to her house to have a shower, change her clothes in expectation that Raffaele would meet up with her. In expectation that Raffaele would meet up with her she set herself to studying, to washing her clothes, and to put the clothes away

PM Mignini: And then?

Knox: While I was there in the kitchen studying and while I was in the kitchen Filomena came back home with her boyfriend, Marco, and they had wrapped a present and they got ready very quickly for a party to which they had to go and I had continued to study and I had helped them to wrap the present with Marco and when they’d left I’d continued to study.

Interpreter: She was studying, they’d only returned for a bit the housemate Filomena with her boyfriend who set themselves to wrapping a present that was going to be for a party. And she had helped them, she was studying in the kitchen and she helped get the present ready and then…

PM Mignini: Was Meredith there?

Knox: Meredith was sleeping

PM Mignini: In that moment…

Interpreter: She was sleeping

[30]

PM Mignini: Ah she was sleeping

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: Ah… then go on

Interpreter: Then after the couple, Filomena and her boyfriend, had gone out, and she continued to study.

Knox: While I was studying, Meredith had woken up and I think she went to the bathroom first and then she came to say hello and she sat down to have breakfast. And we had chatted while I was studying…

Interpreter: Then while she was still at studying in the kitchen Meredith woke up, she went to the bathroom first and then into the kitchen

PM Mignini: At what time? … at what time?

Knox: I think around midday

Interpreter: I believe around midday and then Meredith had joined her in the kitchen to have breakfast and they had exchanged chitchat about the night before

PM Mignini: Was Sollecito there as well?

Knox: No, not yet

Interpreter: No, not yet

PM Mignini: There wasn’t… and then? Go on if…

Knox: We had spoken about Halloween she’d given me some advice about young men and went to have a shower and while she was having a shower I had thought about what to prepare for lunch, because I was starting to feel hungry… I pulled out some things for lunch and that is bread and cheese… then Raffaele arrived and while all this was happening Meredith was under the shower or in her room getting dressed. After Raffaele arrived he got some pasta ready, I believe for lunch while we were eating together Meredith had entered and had either put in, or taken out clothes from, the washing machine, she said hello to him and had gone back into her room…

Interpreter: Now then, Meredith was in the kitchen having breakfast with Amanda they chatted a bit after which Meredith had gone to have a shower and get dressed. In the meantime Amanda who was starting to get hungry had thought about what to prepare for lunch had taken out bread and cheese and Raffaele had also arrived who had set himself to cooking some pasta, it seems to her, for lunch. In the meantime Meredith was still either in the shower or getting dressed. And while Meredith had returned, while they were eating lunch, she’d returned to take her clothes from the washing machine.

PM Mignini: She’d eaten with them?

Knox: No, she had just had breakfast

Interpreter: No, she had just had breakfast

PM Mignini: Please go on

Knox: After Raffaele had eaten, I felt like playing the guitar for a while and Raffaele sat himself down to listen to me… and in all this time Meredith had returned, she had dressed and everything she had gone to the door and she had said “Buona giornata” [have a good day] to us. I remained at home with Raffaele playing the guitar and singing a bit and around five I hadn’t looked at the clock but I believe it might have been five we’d decided to return to his house.

Interpreter: Now then, after lunch Amanda and Raffaele set about playing the guitar and in the meantime Meredith had left the house with a greeting to them. It seems to her that they stayed home playing the guitar until around five in the afternoon when they’d gone instead to Raffaele’s house.

PM Mignini: Just a moment, before going on. When you both had saluted Meredith, did Meredith tell you where she was going? And at what time would she be back?

Knox: No

Interpreter: No

PM Mignini: Go on

Knox: At Raffaele’s house we made ourselves comfortable and I sat at the computer to find songs that I wanted to learn to play on the guitar and in the meantime I know that Raffaele had gone to the bathroom, I was at the computer transcribing songs from the Internet it’s difficult to say what happened first, but what happened was that while I was using the computer a friend of Raffaele’s arrived to ask if she could use his car. She was speaking Italian very quickly and so I don’t know what they said to each other. When Raffaele was in the bathroom the doorbell rang and I let this girl in, and Raffaele came out of the bathroom to meet her.

Interpreter: At Raffaele’s house Amanda searched for songs, music on the computer to play on the guitar in the meantime Raffaele had gone to the bathroom. While Raffaele was in the bathroom a friend of Raffaele’s rang the doorbell to whom Amanda had opened the door and afterwards this friend of Raffaele’s had spoken with Raffaele and it seems to her that this friend had asked him if she could borrow his car.

PM Mignini: Yes, before going further. At Raffaele Sollecito’s house in the bathroom, right? In Raffaele Sollecito’s bathroom is there a shower?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: Have you had showers at Sollecito’s house?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: Oh, go on yes

Knox: After having used the computer I grabbed, I read Harry Potter in German, I gave him the Harry Potter book while he was in the bathroom, but he didn’t understand it, so after we sat ourselves down and I was reading from it to him and I was translating for him and then let’s think about what else did we do… We watched the film Amelie a message from Patrick arrived and in response to the message I said to him, I wished him a good evening and that I would see him again later when he would be… Patrick told me that I didn’t need to go to work because… he told me that in Italian but I believe the message was “there aren’t many people, there’s no need that you come to work”…

Interpreter: Afterwards since Amanda is studying German and Raffaele also wants to learn Amanda has a Harry Potter book in German that they were reading together, trying to translate it together. Afterwards they had watched the film Amelie.

PM Mignini: At what time?

Knox: I don’t remember the time exactly… sorry.

Interpreter: She doesn’t remember

PM Mignini: Doesn’t she remember, the film?

Interpreter: Amelie it’s called yes, so Patrick had sent a message in Italian but…

PM Mignini: And what did this message say?

Interpreter: That there weren’t many people that there was no need that she come to work

PM Mignini: That is he said exactly this. At what time did you receive it?

Knox: I hadn’t looked at the clock

Interpreter: She hadn’t looked at the clock

PM Mignini: After the film or before?

Knox: I don’t remember

Interpreter: I don’t know

PM Mignini: Did Sollecito see this… did he know about it, or else… did he become aware of this message?

Knox: He hadn’t seen it but when I read it I said, “Wow! I don’t have to go to work!”

Interpreter: He hadn’t seen it although she informed him that she didn’t need to go to work and that she was happy so…

PM Mignini: And then?

Interpreter: And then she had responded to Patrick saying “ci vediamo più tardi” [we’ll meet up later]

PM Mignini: Meaning? How did you answer in text precisely?

Knox: My message in English but I wrote it in Italian, what I was trying to say was “ci rivediamo e buona serata” [see you later and have a good evening]… that is “ci rivediamo e buona serata”…

Interpreter: Now then two things. One thing is that she wrote in Italian and another thing what she wanted to say in English. In English what she was thinking of wanting to say was “ci vediamo dopo buona serata intanto” [see you later have a good evening in the meantime] and instead she had written in Italian “ci vediamo buona serata” [let’s meet up have a good evening]

Lawyer: She had written the same thing that it also means in English. She had translated the same thing, I don’t know if she had said the same thing..

Knox: I’m saying to you in English what I wanted to say but I’ve told you I wrote it in Italian

PM Mignini: Make me understand then, excuse me a moment, he sends a message, an SMS, this message says “there’s only a few people don’t come. Don’t come tonight”

Interpreter: Don’t come to work.

PP Mignini: Don’t come to work. This had never happened before we’ve seen.

Knox: No

Interpreter: No the first time

PM Mignini: So that time, for the first time he calls and says “don’t come”

Knox: Yes it was the first time

Interpreter: Yes it was the first time

PM Mignini: How long after did you reply to him with an SMS? Do you remember?

Knox: I think I replied immediately after I received it

Interpreter: It seems to me I replied immediately, straight after having received it.

PM Mignini: But how did you reply? Try to remember the exact words.

Knox: Okay, I said “ci vediamo” or “ci vediamo più tardi buona serata”

PM Mignini: Più tardi buona serata

Interpreter: It seems to me I’d replied something in the affirmative to his message, saying “Okay, ci vediamo più tardi”

PM Mignini: Ci vediamo più tardi

Lawyer: In Italian, but in English what she said something that she… let her say it clearly in Italian, if you would

Knox: Saying “See you later” is like saying ciao

Interpreter: What she wanted to say was only a salutation ciao

PM Mignini: But in Italian you wrote let’s meet up later. In Italian you wrote it like this, do you remember this?

Knox: In Italian I had written let’s meet up later have a good evening but it means in my language, see you later have a good evening

PM Mignini: Oh, does Lumumba know English?

Knox: No, he’s never spoken to me in it, we speak in Italian

Interpreter: She has never spoken in English to him only in Italian

PM Mignini: Go on

Knox: We had fish for dinner, I remember this, because it was very good and afterwards, we had eaten in the kitchen and then afterwards he started to wash the dishes, and while he was washing some water dripped on the floor. From under the sink, because the pipes had come unscrewed and the water had fallen on the floor.

Interpreter: They had dinner, they ate fish and after the meal Raffaele washed the plates and while he was washing the plates the water had gone onto the ground because the sink was broken, the sink pipes were broken, they had leaked.

PM Mignini: But did it break suddenly?

Knox: It wasn’t exactly broken, it was rather that the pipes had come unscrewed

Interpreter: Yes it was the first time that the pipes had become detached and afterwards Raffaele had readjusted them

PM Mignini: Therefore it happened unexpectedly, this breakage?

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: They had become loose? What happened? What breakage was it? What type of breakage was it?

Knox: Yes it was the first time that it had happened

Interpreter: Yes it was the first time that it had happened

PM Mignini: But what happened? I mean was there a pipe breakage or else the screw let’s say, how do you call it, had come unfastened… is it? … we would need to see it…

Knox: I hadn’t examined them myself but what happened is that it had become detached… it had come loose and I don’t believe that…

Interpreter: The pipe had become detached, it had come loose yes

PM Mignini: The pipe came loose right go on

Knox: So to remove the water we grabbed the rags [canovacci= rags or floor rags] … there was too much water and I went into the storeroom to see if there was a mop [in English in the transcript], but there wasn’t then I came back to the kitchen and I said to him “Don’t worry I have a mop at our house” and so tomorrow morning we can go and get it and we can clean…

Interpreter: So to get rid of the water from the ground they used the towels from the kitchen they weren’t enough, they were looking for a rag [sic ‘straccio’ in Italian in the transcript, but obviously the interpreter means ‘mop’] in Raffaele’s house, in the bathroom there wasn’t any so had said “don’t worry tomorrow morning I’ll bring you one, I’ll bring you a rag from my house”

PM Mignini: But in the meantime he’d turned the tap off, no? … So the water wasn’t running out any more

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: Right go on, continue…

Knox: After this Raffaele was a bit upset that the pipes had got broken, he asked me what I wanted to do and we had thought about going, to go back in the bedroom I was laid out on his bed and he was at the desk preparing the joint.

Interpreter: Now then Raffaele was unhappy about this incident because he was saying that the pipes were new and then to cheer her up he thought about what they could do together and they were thinking about smoking a joint together. They went back to bed and Raffaele manufactured a joint.

PM Mignini: Before going on I wanted a clarification. So you had put down towels right?

Knox: They were tiny and so they had done nothing and in the end I’d thrown them into the sink… yes we had put them on the ground, they had taken up a bit of the water but nothing to speak of… so I had put them in the sink and we’d gone to his bedroom.

Interpreter: They were tiny kitchen towels that had no great effect and which afterwards she had thrown into the sink, these towels

PM Mignini: had Raffaele any newspapers at home?

Knox: I think so

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: Dailies?

Knox: Yes

Interpreter: Yes

PM Mignini: Why didn’t you use the newspaper paper since it absorbs a lot? It’s a question that I put to you

Knox: I didn’t think about it…

Interpreter: They didn’t think about it

PM Mignini: Oh, OK, go on continue to recount this… go on, yes

Knox: While we were smoking we started chatting about what we had done, and after we had chatted we had sex… and after that I believe I had fallen asleep…

Interpreter: Now then after they had smoked the joint they had made love and afterwards she believes she fell asleep.

PM Mignini: So Sollecito what did he do? Had he fallen asleep with you, he hadn’t gone, he didn’t stay awake?

Knox: I fell asleep in his arms

Interpreter: Yes she had fallen asleep in his arms

PM Mignini: Then? Go on. He received… one last thing, were there phone calls that night?

Knox: No, I switched off my mobile phone

Interpreter: No she had switched off her phone. Amanda had switched off her phone.

PM Mignini: You switched off yours and Raffaele also switched off his?

Knox: I don’t know because I don’t check him so… I don’t know if he switched off his or not

Interpreter: Now then she doesn’t know if Raffaele had switched his off but she doesn’t seem to remember him receiving any phone calls

PM Mignini: But why did you switch off your phone?

Knox: To save the battery, usually I keep it on at night if the following morning I have things to do, but the morning after was the day that everyone was going to skip school and we were going to go to Gubbio the day after with Raffaele. So I switched off my phone because I didn’t want that maybe Patrick might call to tell me to go to work. That’s why I switched it off and saved the battery.

Interpreter: To not have the battery discharge

PM Mignini: But you could recharge it

Interpreter: Since she was out of the house she wanted to save the battery because the next day she would have gone to Gubbio with Raffaele and since the day… she leaves it on during the night when the following day she has to go to school, but the following day there was no school and so she switched it off also to not run the risk that Patrick would change his mind and would call her to go to work

PM Mignini: Because there was the risk, that is you weren’t sure that…

Knox: He had told me that I didn’t need to go to work but it was still early and I didn’t know if he might have called back to tell me “Yes, now I need you”…

Interpreter: No, when Patrick had called saying that she didn’t need to work it was still early enough and the situation could still change in the sense that more people could turn up and he couldn’t…

PM Mignini: One thing I wanted to know, the phone in the house rang? In Sollecito’s house?

Knox: I don’t remember I can’t be sure about it…

Interpreter: She doesn’t remember, she doesn’t know

PM Mignini: What’s the cell phone that you have? Which one was the cell phone that you switched off? What’s the brand?

Interpreter: the brand, or the [telephone] company…?

PM Mignini: No the brand, I meant the brand

Knox: It’s a Nokia phone

Interpreter: Nokia

PM Mignini: Nokia, but what’s the battery duration, I mean how long normally does the charge of your cell phone [last]..?

Knox: Let’s see…  I think a day but I don’t know… because what I do is that I switch it off if I don’t use it during the night. But if I need it for example as an alarm clock, I let it stay on, then I go home and I charge it again, I put it on charge…

... I never use it to the point of battery exhaustion. Sometimes I put it on charge, sometimes I don’t.

Interpreter: It seems it lasts 24 hours, and she never lets it run out of battery to the limit

PM Mignini: So there was no risk that it would run out of battery while going to Gubbio?

Interpreter: It normally lasts 24 hours

PM Mignini: What?

Interpreter: The battery lasts 24 hours

PM Mignini: No, I’m asking, what the risk that it would run out of battery be like? I don’t understand

Knox: But why should I waste the battery leaving it on?

Interpreter: She only wanted to feel safe since she didn’t need to keep it on in order to…

PM Mignini: But she usually keeps it on at night

Interpreter: Only when she uses it as an alarm. In the morning

PM Mignini: Well but you’d use the alarm every morning, I use it every morning

Interpreter: But she was not going to school on the next day

PM Mignini: Ah…

Attorney: She said it previously, it was a holiday and I did not put the alarm on

PM Mignini: When you were going to school you said previously. Go on with the description.

Knox: You want to know more about that morning? … When I woke up in the morning, I got up and Raffaele was still in bed, I dressed up and I went to my home, to take care about my things… when I arrived at my home the door was wide open which was strange, so I went in my room, I undressed, I took a shower and when I got out of the shower, I noticed the blood in the bathroom…  There was not much of it but even that I found it strange… but at the same time it’s not that I immediately thought “Oh my God, there was a murder!”

Interpreter: She fell asleep at night and the following day she woke up at Raffaele’s home, while Raffaele remained in bed she went back home

PM Mignini: Let’s stop here for a moment. I just wanted to know this: On November 2 was it holiday at the … [University?]… because the 2nd is not a holiday here

Knox: The teachers said it was not a problem if I stayed home, because it seems like everyone was going to skip that Friday

Interpreter: Yes there was the sequence. Also the teacher said…

PM Mignini: Go on, so she said…

Interpreter: She said students were not expected to go, they were not coming…

PM Mignini: [the teacher] told her so, on the previous day?

Knox: Yes, on Wednesday I think

Interpreter: Yes on Wednesday at school

PM Mignini: Who was the teacher who told you that?

Knox: I don’t know her name but she is the Professor of Culture, I don’t know the day when she said that to me… but it was during that week… while we were talking during the week, one day she said it was a tradition to make a holiday bridge on Friday if Thursday was a holiday, so they can do [holiday] the whole weekend

Interpreter: So the teacher said it’s a classic for the students to make a holiday bridge when there is a holiday Thursday and have a prolonged weekend

PM Mignini: What’s the name of this teacher?

Knox: I’m not good at remembering names..

Interpreter: She doesn’t remember the name

PM Mignini: A woman?

Knox: Yes a woman

Interpreter: A woman

PM Mignini: Ok, go forward. You wake up at what time, at Sollecito’s place?

Knox: More or less at ten

Interpreter: Around ten

PM Mignini: And then?

Knox: Then I went back home, the door was open

Interpreter: Then she went back to her home where she found…

PM Mignini: Why did you go back home?

Interpreter: To take a shower and change her clothes

PM Mignini: Why didn’t you take a shower at Sollecito’s?

Knox: Did you see his shower? … It leaks [drops?] everywhere…  It’s a dreadful shower…  I hate to use it… and moreover all what I need to have a shower like shampoo is at my home…

Interpreter: Because it’s an ugly place, small, there is little space

PM Mignini: But you took the shower other times, but also during the afternoon you had one…

Knox: I prefer to take a shower at my home

Interpreter: She prefers to take a shower at her home, she also has clothes at home… 

Knox: And also all my clothes are at my home…

[Ed note: start of overlap with Post #2]

PM Mignini: So she needed to go home, to take a shower and, let me understand, take a shower and to what?

Interpreter: To change her clothes

PM Mignini: To change your clothes… well and so what [did you]… did you bring anything with you?

Knox: I think I brought some clothes… dirty underwear…

Interpreter: Yes she thinks she brought dirty clothes from Raffaele’s home

PM Mignini: Dirty clothes that is… dirty clothes from previous times? Or since which… since what day were they lasting from?

Knox: I had spent two weeks living a bit at my home and a bit at his home

Interpreter: Because for two weeks she had been living half the time at her home and half the time at his home, and thus she had a bit of…

PM Mignini: What clothes were those ones?

Knox: Maybe underwear

Interpreter: Probably…

Knox: But I don’t remember, maybe it was a t-shirt

PM Mignini: You don’t remember

Interpreter: Dirty clothes…

PM Mignini: Well dirty clothes, I mean a skirt, a pullover…

Interpreter: No rather…

PM Mignini: Underwear garments

Interpreter: Underwear garments

PM Mignini: She doesn’t remember?

Interpreter: She thinks rather pants and vests /undershirts… and t-shirts

PM Mignini: Well, how were you dressed when you went at your house?

Interpreter: From Raffaele’s house to her house?

Knox: I was wearing trousers I remember that and let’s see…  so much time has passed… I know it was trousers

PM Mignini: Yes

Interpreter: She put on some trousers, she remembers it was trousers

PM Mignini: What colour?

Knox: A t-shirt and a sweater

Inte

Posted on 09/30/17 at 12:00 AM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Tuesday, September 19, 2017

Netflixhoax 20: Longer, Better Interviews With Dr Mignini Show Clearly How Netflix Cherrypicked Him

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters




1 How Netflix Cherrypicked

First please check our previous post Dr Mignini Responds To A Reporter Misrepresenting Him About The Report.

Other British and American reporters have also tried to play “gotcha” with Dr Mignini by cherrypicking his replies when the English version comes out. The exact same trick the Netflix team played on Dr Mignini was played by KOMO TV in Seattle, CNN, CBS, and the Guardian. To all of those he later replied.

Dr Mignini was led to understand that the Netflix production team was a respected Danish group. He was not told that it consisted of several American crackpots notorious over the years for harassing reporters and justice officials around Perugia and online.

Dr Mignini was seated in front of a camera by interviewers who knew no Italian and seemingly knew very little about the case or about the version of Knox Italy saw in 2007 and 2008 before the play-acting cut in. They appeared to want only light simple titillating stuff, aimed at about 12-year-olds.

The team didn’t happen to mention that half his interview would end up on the cutting room floor - or that Amanda Knox would be given more than twice the time, to spin unchallenged a number of long-rebutted lies.

2. Netflix’s Dishonest Takeaway

The takeway of well over 100 reviewers (we will soon be posting quotes from all of them) was that (1) Dr Mignini invented a sex crime and (2) next thing Knox was convicted, based pretty well solely on that.

In the interview below, mirrored by others, Dr Mignini explains how very much more complicated than that it was to narrow down to Knox’s definite involvement. His team took into account dozens of factors and put them all in evidence.

And our interrogation hoax series shows how he handed over control of the investigation almost instantly after Knox’s arrest to Judge Matteini (never mentioned by Netflix) and numerous other judges (never mentioned by Netflix) including Supreme Court judges in 2008 who in fact took a harder line rather than releasing Knox as they could have done.

3. The Long-Form Mignini Interview

This interview came to us almost by accident. It is the full transcript of Drew Griffin of CNN and Dr Mignini. Griffin, who speaks no Italian, later tried to hide almost all of what was on the recording, and instead cherrypicked and disparaged Dr Mignini despite his courtesy in doing the interview.

Skeptical Bystander of Perugia Murder File obtained the recording. Translation was by Clander, Yummi, Jools, Thoughtful, TomM and Catnip.

4’09’’ CNN: There have been many stories about this crime, about what people think happened. What do you think really happened?

4’20’’ Mignini: Well, I am a magistrate for the Public Prosecutor’s Office who found himself ... I was on duty at the time and thus I happened to be dealing with this matter randomly. For me it is a criminal proceeding that I dealt with, and I am currently working on it today at the appeal level.

4’49’’ What happened was that a crime was committed for which we conducted an investigation in the best way considering the situation. And there was a trial which, in the first instance, resulted in conviction with full acknowledgement of the theory of the Public Prosecutor’s Office. I know there have been books, there were also films on the subject, but this is something for which I have limited interest. My job is to be a prosecutor for the Public Prosecutor’s Office who dealt with this case. I am interested in it from this point of view, nothing else.

6’30’’ CNN: But exactly how was the crime like, what you and your assistants, I do not say [missing words: *what happened?] ... but [what] you understood, who are the murderers, and the reason for this murder?

6’46’’ Mignini: I can tell you our impression when I arrived on the scene. I arrived basically, I believe, I think around 2:30 p.m. on Nov. 2, and I found myself facing a crime that obviously looked like - this is the impression I got in the first place and it was subsequently confirmed by the investigations and the proceeding - a murder of a sexual nature, in which there was this girl who was undressed or nearly so, a young woman who was covered with this, with this quilt. And the other thing which struck us, which was of immediate interest, I said this on other occasions and I repeat it because I’ve said it also at the first trial, was the break-in. And it appeared immediately – the climbing, the simulation of climbing, with a stone thrown through the window, through two shutters that were there, that left open quite a narrow space, rather limited room between them – immediately that appeared to us to be a simulation.

8’38’’ So there was this crime of a sexual nature and a simulated burglary. That is, the perpetrators or perpetrator, at that moment we were making a preliminary assessment, was someone who attempted, that appeared to be the situation to us, he had attempted [missing words] So that appeared to be the situation, an investigation of unknown persons; whereas instead the house, the house door was completely intact, there had not been a been a breaking open, and this made us think, then, as the investigations progressed, because as investigations go, by approximation you slowly get closer to it, to the ascertaining of the facts, it was, we thought it was someone who knew the victim and had an interest in orienting the investigation toward strangers.

09’44’’ Then the investigation went on. There were other important issues ... [missing word: *facts?] that have occurred [missing words]; they remained as key aspects of ... of what is called the basis of the charge. Which, by the way, for us is not the side of the accusation; we are an office that also has the task of ascertaining facts in favor of the suspect during the investigation.

10’19’’ What struck us besides the issue of the simulation was a series of endless contradictions, of inconsistencies, in the story of the two young people, the two young people who later became suspects and then defendants. And then, in particular, the calunnia [false accusation], then, what turned out to be such, a false accusation, made by the accused against her employer, a black man, Lumumba, Patrick D. Lumumba.

10’53” Here it is, this is it. Then, the elements of which there is much talk today, the elements which consist of forensic evidence, there was also evidence. There are the fingerprints, the [foot] prints, the phone cell records. These elements are ..., especially the forensics, they arose at a later time. This means, from the beginning what oriented the investigations toward these people, and later toward the black subject, Rudy, Rudy Herman Guede, who ... [missing word?] they were, that of Herman Guede was identified through the forensic material that was found.

The two youths were, let’s say they became objects of…[missing words?] the perpetrators of the murder, based on the findings that emerged at the beginning of the investigation, namely the simulation, the contradictions found especially in Amanda’s story, especially when she tells of having spent some time in the house, having taken a shower, in spite of everything. And then the call, the behavior that they maintained, especially the girl, upon the arrival of the postal police. And then the accusation, which was obviously a false accusation against Lumumba. So all these factors then they have, they led to the formulation of these accusations against them, which were later substantiated by the results of forensic tests, scientific evidence, were made by the scientific police, that is, the scientific police, which is that at the top of the national scientific police, which operates directly under the department of Public Security of the Ministry of the Interior. We also had the local scientific police, but the one which operated was the scientific police placed under the command of Public Safety, thus at the central level.

16’34’’ CNN: Before there was the evidence from the forensic police, did you arrive at your conclusions with respect to Amanda Knox by instinct?

17’00’’ Mignini: The scientific elements were coming in, as I recall, they were coming in gradually. Now, I would not be able to tell you [missing words] ... I think, for example, that the issue of the knife, and then the sample, the genetic profile of the victim on the blade and the genetic profile of the defendant on a spot where the handle of the knife is close to the insertion of the blade, I think that was entered quite later compared to the initial investigation. But in fact the order of detention, ... which I ... which is the act by which, under which the two young people and, at the time, also Lumumba who was later released, were taken to the house of preventive detention, that is in prison. In this detention order, there was no mention of any DNA analysis [indagini genetiche], obviously.

18’08’’ There is, in the detention order and in the hearing before the Judge of the Preliminary Investigation [GIP] on the validity of the detention and then in the first months, the first weeks of investigation, that is our belief, mine and the flying squad, that the behavior of two young people and in particular, this actually is [missing words]... it was a detail that was even more obvious regarding Amanda, [we thought] was such that the two were considered involved in the crime. Thus before that, it was an initial assessment of those elements that we had at the beginning to orient the investigation toward them. Then confirmations came. And there were many elements of corroboration at the end; they were very significant, very numerous. But at the beginning we had these elements, again, in particular the issue of simulation.

20’13’’ CNN: And what was the proof, because from what we understand the scientific evidence does not point to them ... the two of them?

20’25’’ Mignini: Well, then: so now I,  to list all the evidence [elementi] that was found, it would be [missing words] on the other hand they have been mentioned in the First Instance sentence report by the Court of Assize. Mmm, then ...

20’50’’ The issue of the simulation ... The issue of the simulation, in that house just in those days, i.e. 1, 2 November, the second was a Friday, the third was a Saturday, the fourth was a Sunday, on that weekend in 2007 there was only Meredith and Amanda in the house in Via della Pergola. Since the two Italian girls were away from home: Filomena Romanelli was with her boyfriend in another part of town, she was staying there overnight, while Laura Mezzetti was in the province of Viterbo.

21’36’’ So in the house that night there was only Amanda and the victim. Amanda said she was in Sollecito’s house, which is actually a five-minute walk from the house of Meredith. Because of the distance, we must take into account the distance, you shall go to see these places, you see that the distances are very short, very limited. So who might have an interest in simulating intrusion by a stranger? Only a person who might be worried about being implicated in the crime.

There was no sign of forced entry through the front door, so this is an extremely significant element. Then we have again the inconsistencies that can be detected in the statements. There is the fact, then during the investigation the homeless man, the homeless man came in, who very precisely identified the two young people, he said he saw the two basically the night between the 1st and 2nd, a few meters from the house where the crime happened, in which it was committed, presumably at a time compatible with the crime. While instead the two young people stated they had remained all the time at Raffaele’s home. There is another detail which at the beginning of the investigation [was] something that has, let’s say, intensified the elements for us; it was the fact that Raffaele at the beginning had attempted, let’s say he attempted to state that he stayed at home while Amanda had been out and she returned to Raffaele’s house I think at about two a.m.

Then this approach has been kept by Raffaele during the hearing for validation of arrest, and afterwards was abandoned as Sollecito’s defense line became more, let’s say, supportive of Amanda. But at an earlier stage Raffaele stated this position of separation between the two.

Then other elements are given by the fact, were given by the fact that the homeless man saw them on the night of the crime in a location a few steps, a few meters away from the crime and at a time shortly before the murder occurred.

There is a statement of the neighbor lady who lived nearby, who heard a scream at a time compatible with that specified, with what we thought could be the time of death of Meredith, that is between 23.30 and midnight. And this, this lady, heard footsteps, there is a whole description that now I will not repeat because it has been explained ... rather, it was described at length in the first trial, she heard the footsteps of some people who are moving, running, along the clear ground facing the house of the crime, others were running up the stairs, almost simultaneously, running on the metal stairs which are above the garage and basically end up in via Pinturicchio. I do not know if you are familiar with the city of Perugia, but I guess not. So this scream the lady heard, a terrible scream and also another neighbor heard it, at a consistent time, I repeat, and this simultaneous running of subjects on opposite sides, from different, distant areas, basically corroborated the fact that there were multiple murderers.

26’09’’ Rudy himself, in his questioning has, while remaining vague, more or less vague with respect to Sollecito, however later during the various interviews he more or less indicated quite clearly that Amanda was present.
Then [we had] the questioning, then there were questionings that were done. I remember one of them, that of Amanda in prison which was an interrogation that has made me… you asked what elements did I use to let’s say support the charge, saying in quotes the prosecution, there was also an interrogation in prison, Amanda, in inverted commas let’s say the accusation in the presence of the defense attorneys of course, and which confirmed the profound shock in which she always fell every time she had to tell what happened that night.

And then there were the results… well, fingerprints ... footprints, the footprints on the rug of the bare foot stained with blood, an especially important detail which I see many have not talked about but which is extremely important, is the mixed stains of blood in the small bathroom close the scene of crime, those of the defendant and the victim.

31’00’’ CNN: In the room [missing words]

31’05’’ Mignini: But let’s say I may reverse the issue: how do you explain the DNA, the genetic profile of the victim on the knife found in Sollecito’s house, together with the genetic profile of the defendant located at the area of the blade [possibly meaning: handle] where force is applied, not where you cut…

31’40’’ CNN: Are you sure that one was the knife?

31’44’’ Mignini: That it was for us, I can say this: first you have to start from a premise: Amanda and Sollecito knew each other only since October 25. That is, we think, because this detail is very significant with respect to the relevance of this finding, since we [may just] think it was a relationship, usually we don’t think of the fact that actually they had known each other for a week. And thus this knife was never touched in conditions ... I tell you what we found in the investigation, I am talking about what we ascertained during the investigation - this knife was never touched by Meredith under normal circumstances. It was never brought to Meredith’s home, this is what the two Italian housemates say, and so why, [since] Meredith had never been to Sollecito’s house, why was Meredith’s genetic material found on the blade by the forensic police, and the genetic profile of the defendant on the spot of the handle that is where the hand would press not as you apply pressure from top down, but from back to the front, that is in a condition similar to that when you strike a blow, like this. So this…

And I have… during the first trial I tried to show very clearly that this knife, the witness, the inspector I think whose name was Armando Finzi, he’s the one who conducted the search at Sollecito’s and found this knife. And I asked: did you put on your gloves at the time, was it the first pair of gloves you were using, in that search that was the first pair of gloves, he went [there], he started the inspection, he had not touched anything else, he opened the… the cupboard where this knife was. I do not remember if he took away several, but he picked up this knife that was immediately - and thus with the gloves that he was wearing in that moment – it was immediately closed and sealed, was brought to the flying squad, where another police officer, the superintendent, I think, Gubbiotti, using the same technique, put it into a sealed container which was then carried to… was then analyzed. So this was, let’s say because I wanted this to be highlighted and I think the Assize Court says so, I wanted to show that there was no possibility of contamination by the police, by the flying squad, with regard to this item.

35’04’’ Also because, I would like this to be noted, from the perspective of Italian law, evidence of contamination must be given by the person who invokes it. This means: I found the genetic profile, you as defense attorney say ‘there could be contamination’, you must prove it. That is, the burden of proof is reversed: it is you, the one who invokes the contamination, the one who has to give evidence of it. And this evidence was never given and cannot, I think, it cannot be given. That is, the one who claims a fact must prove it, onus probandi incumbit ei qui dicit, non ei qui negat. [Translator’s note: This sentence was spoken in Latin and translates as “the burden of proof is on those who assert something, not on those who deny it”.]

36’50’’ CNN: Was it certain the genetic material was that of Meredith, and not genetic material that might be consistent with that of Meredith?

37’01’’ Mignini: No, no, it was like that. It was ascertained as such by the scientific police.

37 ‘20’’ CNN: So your detectives went into the apartment ...

37’28’’ Mignini: No, the knife was collected, then it was brought to the scientific police, it was sent to the scientific police in Rome.

37’ 40’’ CNN: Yes but your detectives entered the apartment and they selected right this very knife…

37’49’’ Mignini: I believe samples were taken from several, that is, not only that particular knife. I think, if I’m not mistaken. I think more knives were tested; however, one of those was definitely exhibit 36, the famous exhibit 36. And on this exhibit is where [a sample] was recovered from, and here it’s the scientific police that did the evaluation of that evidence and I retain, I digress. About [case] aspects, at the end of the investigation phase I asked, given the complexity of the case, the resonance of the case, I felt it was appropriate to have a colleague join me, a deputy [public prosecutor] like myself. Let me clarify, I’m not the chief prosecutor; I am a deputy prosecutor, since I’ve been presented as the chief prosecutor, but I am not the chief prosecutor. Then I requested the assistance of a colleague, Manuela Comodi, and we divided up the tasks. She has remarkable aptitude for these aspects of a genetic nature.

And so in this regard, I don’t know if you notice it in the first instance trial, my colleague did the questioning regarding the genetic aspects. I instead handled the more generic aspects of the case and aspects of a more investigative nature. This is why I remember all the details of the investigation, because I carried out the investigations of people. But for these aspects of genetics and scientific nature, we rely on the scientific police and we retain that the scientific police acted with utmost professionalism. I can recall, for example, going to the crime scene, I was at the place, and I also had to wear overalls, shoe-covers and a kind of cap, not just once but several times, at the same time when we did the inspections, ... I remember having worn many times, for example, the shoe-covers. And I had to… also because, those who worked on the scene did have their DNA samples taken as well, so there is also my DNA [sample]. Dr. Stefanoni took DNA samples of everyone to rule out in case, there could be DNA discovered belonging to some operator who had nothing to do with this matter.

40’38’’ Therefore, I have the utmost confidence in the scientific police because the top of the scientific police in Italy, especially Dr. Stefanoni who acted with great professionalism and these findings on the biological material were carried out in cross-examination with consultants for the defense team, always. The defense consultants, as I recall, and I was present, as far as I can remember, they had no objections if not in later analysis; they had no objection to anything at all at the time. For example, when the famous bra clasp was discovered, the defense consultants were there, for Sollecito there was a consultant who afterwards was replaced, I don’t remember his name, he was quite good, and I remember that he did not make any objections. Therefore, all these findings were carried out in cross-examination and the other parties had the opportunity to challenge what the scientific police biologist was doing, the scientific police expert in forensic genetics.

42’06’’ So I think. I distinctly remember that, in the first trial, I tried to prove that the knife had been collected with the utmost correctness. And I believe that afterwards the same thing happened in the scientific police laboratory when it was analyzed.

44’16’’ CNN: I still have trouble understanding how you can have a crime so horrendous and so bloody without two of the suspects leaving any trace.

44’30’’ Mignini: Look I should then add, it must be also said, at the time. In the bathroom of the two foreign girls, that is Meredith and Amanda, which is attached, next to the room of the murder, blood material was discovered of Amanda and Meredith, mixed. Why is this material important? It is important because in her own account told, in her own deposition Amanda makes in, I think, in early June of 2009, during the first instance trial, she says that when she left the house on the afternoon of November 1st, those spots were not there. She says so herself. So she returns in the morning, says she went back in the morning and sees those spots of blood. Those spots of blood are mixed Amanda and victim.

Also, in the small bathroom, there is a blood stained footprint, which the scientific police attributed to Raffaele, on the bath mat next to the murder room. On the corridor leading to the murder room, [and] leading to Amanda’s room, there are footprints, I’m not sure now, there are even in Amanda’s room, I think, there are footprints that were attributed to the two youngsters by the scientific police, of feet stained in blood. And, by elements, there is also a print of shoe and that one, was inside the murder room. Elements there are, that is, how to explain the presence of these elements if the two youngsters were not involved in the murder, [and] stayed at home? And another detail: it is a crime, this was established at the time by the Supreme Court, then we can no longer put into question at this point, it is a crime committed by several persons. I have, during the first instance trial, I heard this line of approach, and I also opposed this approach, which extended to holding that Rudy was the only one responsible.

The “only one responsible” is not one person, but [transcription error] they are several persons and Rudy is among them. This is now procedurally beyond dispute.

48’48’’ CNN: He also wants to know if you also found [missing words], that is, Sollecito perhaps, had a few cuts, did you check to see if he had any cuts?

48’56’’ Mignini: The…yes. Well, now: Laura Mazzetti, that is the Italian girl from Viterbo, [said] that it was a scratch, however, she remembers having seen on Amanda’s neck, she told this account and afterwards was also heard [as a person informed], it’s sort of a scratch just few days later, I think it was three or four days, she remembers seeing this scratch on Amanda’s neck that had been also seen, I think, by one of the boys from the Marches region. And in one of the photos taken during the house search by police, I think it shows something. Nevertheless, Laura Mazzetti indicates the presence of a scratch or something like a scratch. That is, she remembers seeing that Amanda had this little injury to the neck.

50’20’’ CNN: None of your investigators noticed it?

50’25’’ Mignini: The investigators did not notice it, because at the time, Amanda kept herself covered, she was, as described by the shopkeeper Quintavalle, covered up. However, Laura Mazzetti saw it and it was also seen, I think if I’m not mistaken or was said, by the young guy from the Marches who was living downstairs.

This girl saw it [the scratch/mark] and she stated this later in the courtroom. Moreover there is even a photo.

51’44’’ CNN: Knox was in contact with the police for several days after the murder. She was interrogated. Was she always wearing something that covered her neck?

52’00’’ Mignini: I think so, to be fair, this was a mark that it was not very visible. Laura Mazzetti said she saw it well. Keep in mind also that we did not focus on it automatically, because it was not like a visually striking mark. She was questioned like Raffaele Sollecito and like all the people who were more or less, that had to be questioned in those days, after the murder, a long series of people were questioned, among which the [girl] friends of Meredith, the English girls she was with the evening of Nov 1 and the night before Oct 31. And, among these people who had been questioned, also several times, Amanda and Sollecito were questioned, Amanda in particular was questioned several times: the evening of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and then on the evening of 5th and the morning, or early hours of the 6th. But look, what I wanted that [??], just for the purposes of explanation, that under Italian law, we must take into account the totality of the findings.

Therefore there is the scientific evidence, there are statements made by people, examination of witnesses, there is the formal interrogation, there’s the conduct of the accused. All of these elements, it is not only the genetic aspect that comes into consideration. The genetic aspect [is], together with many others, must be altogether; it is a whole spectrum of various findings, which should converge towards an affirmation of a reality that is undisputable. This is how it should be, this is important from a judicial point of view. So it is not that the proof consists of the genetic evidence; it is not like that. There are items of proof from witnesses, there is the fact that there couldn’t be only one perpetrator, and this is now indisputable, and one of the positions of the defense of the two suspects always tended to say there was only one murderer who committed the deed, who climbed through in that totally absurd way, [that’s] not credible.

56’10’’ CNN: About Amanda’s interrogation, on the fifth day, what was it is that triggered you, made you begin to feel suspicious, and led you to conduct a more aggressive interrogation?

56’26’’ Mignini: I see you don’t… so, I’ll repeat to you what happened. On the evening of November 5th, the police were going to question Sollecito, and on the evening of the 5th, as I was saying before, the attitude of Sollecito at the beginning was an attitude of, let’s say, different than the one he would assume later, meaning a defense line supportive with Amanda’s; at that moment, he had a different position. That is, on the evening of Nov 5th. Sollecito made a statement saying “I was at home, Amanda wasn’t”. Amanda at that time had followed; she had accompanied Sollecito to the police station and she waited outside [of the room]. As the police heard this version of Sollecito’s, who basically, Sollecito ... with that statement, also this approach by him in practice more or less had become part of the process too, as Sollecito made this statement, the police became suspicious.

That is: why did Sollecito tell us this, and why is he now telling us that Amanda was not home with him? So then they called Amanda, and Amanda was heard by the police as a person not under investigation, thus with no defense attorney, because the person… the witness, the person informed of the facts during the investigation – is not called a witness, he is called a person informed of the facts - she was heard by the police who pointed out to her, they confronted her with this question: why is Raffaele saying something else? Now you say you were with him and Raffaele says you were not there, that he was at home and you were not there? This is the point.

58’44’’ So she did, she was heard in a way, let’s say for long enough, I cannot remember for how long, in the earliest morning hours of November 6, 2007. I was not there when Amanda was interviewed by the police. I was, perhaps I was coming, because I had been called by the director of the flying squad that night. I do not remember what time I arrived at the flying squad, but I think that… I think I got there, maybe I arrived when Amanda’s questioning had already started. But the flying squad is pretty big; I was not in the room where Amanda was being questioned, but rather in the office of the director of the flying squad. We were talking about the investigation and were trying to plan the investigation for the coming days. So now, at some point, they call me, if I remember correctly, they inform me that Amanda had given the name of Lumumba, she had basically confessed that she was at the crime scene in the company of, with Lumumba, whom she had let into the house, that is it. Now I go on, I wanted to explain how I operate. So it’s not me, I did not do the questioning.

Further posts of the CNN interview which then moved on to later events can be read here and here. There is another significant interview here.

As Netflix “forgot” to tell you what actually happened at Knox’s session ending at 1:45 am which Knox lied about see here.

And as Netflix “forgot” to tell you what actually happened at Knox’s session ending at 5:45 am which Knox lied about see here.

Put this long-form interview about the first few days up against what you may have seen on Netflix, and tell us if the impression gained is the same, or like night and day?

Posted on 09/19/17 at 10:59 PM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Thursday, September 07, 2017

Being Reported: Significant Developments In The Sollecito Crime Family

Posted by Peter Quennell




1. The Sollecitos And The Rizutto Crime Family

That photo above was taken in a Montreal court in January of last year. 

Rocco’s son Stefano was being charged with a number of crimes, and Rocco was there to manage and observe. Five months later, Rocco was dead, gunned down by a hitman still not identified, and Stefano was temporarily free on bail but still facing numerous charges and soon to go back inside.

Rocco was believed to have muscled his way to the leadership of the Rizutto mafia clan, then possibly the largest mafia family in the world, not too long after this happened back in 2010.

On November 10, 2010, [crime boss Nicolo] Rizzuto was killed at his residence in the Cartierville borough of Montreal when a single bullet from a sniper’s rifle punched through two layers of glass in the rear patio doors of his Montreal mansion. His death is believed to be the final blow against the Rizzuto crime family.

Nice shooting. But it was not quite the final blow to the Rizutto crime family.  Today Stefano Sollecito and Leonardo Ri‎zzuto, grandson of Nicolo are believed to be the joint heads of the mafia clan.

The relevance to our case becomes apparent if you know that:

(1) The Rizutto clan is considered an arm of the Ndrangheta, which has been moving into the Peruga area for a decade now. Taking justice down a peg is not considered unhelpful.

(2) The Dominican Republic is considered by the FBI etc to be the playground and drugs-throughpoint for various mafias and very useful waypoint for drugs headed to the United States and Canada - and even Italy.

The Rizutto/Sollecito clan pretty well dominate the eastern town there, and they have certain gambling interests there. The country has few extradition treaties, so it’s tempting as a mafia retirement abode.

2. Raffaele Sollecito visits the DR twice in 2013

Sollecito first headed there quite ostentatiously - sending a threatening signal maybe? - in the summer of 2013, some months before the Nencini appeal in Florence.

Then Sollecito headed there again secretly right in the middle of that appeal when it seems to have appeared to him (rightly) that the outcome would go against Knox and himself.

Very tellingly, both Sollecito and his family tried hard to keep the destination of that trip a secret. But the Italian media finally figured it out (through not why). Here is how we reported that drama on 4 December 2013.

[Prosecutor Crini had finished summarizing the case against RS and AK unrelentingly over two days.]

Dr Francesco Sollecito was reported as being shocked by the unrelenting tone of the indictment. However, Sollecito’s plight is not nearly as bad as the ever-stubborn Amanda Knox’s.

Knox has already served three years and was fined heavily for obstruction of justice. She could face another year for that if it is found to have been aggravating. And as the post below mentions, she could face as many as three more charges for aggravating obstruction of justice. 

Sollecito in contrast has respected the court by actually showing up, and, unlike Knox, has lately shown restraint in accusing his accusers.

However, the day after Dr Crini ‘s startlingly powerful summary of the case against him, it looked like Sollecito was hastily taking off out of Italy for somewhere. 

La Nazione reported that police at Florence Airport had held back a fully loaded Air France flight to Paris while they checked with the prosecution that he was indeed allowed to leave the country.  La Nazione said the prosecutors have some concern that he might skip and not come back, but he did voluntarily come back previously from the Dominican Republic, and his family has always ensured some presence in court.

But next TGCom24 reported that Sollecito’s father had claimed that Sollecito had already gone home to Bisceglie, although he is a free citizen still in possession of a passport and can travel anywhere if he wishes.

But then TGCom24 reported that he had indeed flown to Paris, but had turned around and come straight back again, to stay with family friends.  And that on 8 December he will sit his final exams in computer science at the University of Verona.

However, soon after that La Nazione reported that Sollecito’s father had been contradicted by his lawyers, and his erratic son had slipped through his fingers and flown “for his work” back to the Dominican Republic. Translation by Jools:

1 December 2013 – SCOOP. Denials, lies, game by the defenders. But in the end it’s up to the lawyer Luca Maori to admit: “Raffaele Sollecito returned to Santo Domingo, as anticipated on Friday by La Nazione”

He embarked from Florence’s Peretola Airport and made a stop-over in Paris, from where he then flew to the Caribbean island where he spent the last few months that preceded the start of the new appeals process. “But there is nothing strange - minimizes the lawyer - Raffaele went back to pick up the things he left there, will be back in ten days for the final exams and to await the judgment. With anxiety, but self-assured.”

No escape, just a normal “work” trip. Permissible, since there is no measure that prevents the accused to leave Italy. But the departure of Sollecito, accused of the murder of Meredith Kercher along with former girlfriend Amanda Knox (already sheltered in the U.S.) caused some sneering. And even the agents of the Border Police, when they saw him in front of the [departure] gate, made a phone call to the Procura to be sure whether the journey in the midst of the appeal process was really “normal.”

IN FACT. Sollecito ‘s father, in an understandable effort to defend his already too overexposed son, slipped on the so-called banana peel, placing the young man within a few hours in various locations, but never in the true destination across the ocean: in Verona, preparing for the final exam in computer science in regard to the thesis, or in Paris, but just for a flash-stay from which he was back the day after. At Christmas, maintained the father, Raffaele will return from abroad. Maybe for the last break before the final rush of the Mark II process, which, according to calculations by the Assize Court of Appeal, could be concluded on January 15.

Meanwhile, the hearing on 16 December is for the remaining civil parties, then double date for the defence, (December 17 and January 9) and hearing on the 10 dedicated to counter-argument. With Sollecito in the courtroom, assures the lawyer.

Nothing strange?! Doctor Sollecito never explaining to the media where Raffaele went, or why he went there, or why it was a huge secret, should have official minds very seriously wondering why.

WHAT did Raffaele have to do so secretly in the Dominican Republic - where his notorious mafia relatives from Montreal occupy a town there?

Had the prosecution stopped Sollecito from going to the Dominican Republic when the airport police called to check if that was alright, it now seems certain that RS and AK would be sitting in prison, the Kerchers would have some peace, and none of us would be laboring away here. 

3. Taunting New Tone From Sollecito Defense

It was observed among other things by those who do observing professionally that Amanda Knox and Sollecito and his lawyer Bongiorno became exceptionally macho upon his return and for the next 12 months

Sollecito was downbeat only briefly twice in 2014, first when he and his Italian girfriend scampered northward before Nencini’s verdict, and second when he was trying and failing to get American girls to marry him. Remember this and also this about the macho press conference in mid 2014?

Mostly the pair were exceptionally macho right through to the Fifth Chambers “mysteriously” being assigned the final appeal, and two judges inexperienced in murder cases mangling the evidence and breaking Italian law in the written judgement which sort-of cleared RS and AK.

That’s some of what is out in broad daylight so far. There is much more under official wraps for now. That both the Hellmann appeal and the Marasca/Bruno appeal were bent seem dead-certs to officialdom.

4. The Latest News From Montreal

Meanwhile, back in Montreal, Leonardo Ri‎zzuto and Stefano Sollecito remain locked up awaiting trial. Bail was denied them - no surprise there, the state does need its witnesses.

Here as of a week ago is their trial status.

The last of the leaders accused of the mafia in Montreal, Stefano Sollecito and Leonardo Rizzuto, will be entitled to a mega-trial, which will be specially reserved [for them alone].

The judge Eric Downs has just confirmed that the two men, charged with gangsterism and conspiracy to traffic cocaine, will be judged separately from the 15 other accused in the operation Nest Egg… The dates of this trial will be held before a judge and jury, in Montreal, will be fixed within two weeks.

Stefano Sollecito, whose father Rocco has already led the clan Rizzuto, before his murder by a professional killer… had long sought a trial as early as possible since he is fighting a serious illness.

Note “fighting a serious illness”.  Hmmm. The presumed end of that branch of the family as a fighting force. There is also another development of the maybe-not-good-news variety for Raffaele.

Events described above might have evolved quite differently if Sammy Nicolucci had not been put away a few year ago by the Canadians.

Both Sammy Nicolucci and Rocco Sollecito had once been on a career path to head the Rizzuto crime family. But Sammy was put away in prison, opening a clear way forward for Rocco.

As Rocco was gunned down, while Sammy walks free, maybe Sammy thinks he has the last laugh? Could he have Raffaele Sollecito looking over his shoulder these days, or at least not vacationing in Canada any time soon.

5. Implications For Sollecito Going Forward

Rocco’s silencing by death was clearly to Raff’s and Amanda’s advantage, even assuming they had no hand in it. It is likely if Rocco had managed to stay alive that the Italians would have figured out a way to nab him.

It’s their experience-based and effective way with the mafias: dont ever talk about it, just do it: keep up a relentless pursuit without ceasing until there are clear grounds to isolate and take down some bad guys. See this latest example and also this one here.

If you think about it, it’s a great pity for our case that Rocco did get gunned down. He got off easy and our case remains messy. Damn you Rocco!

The silencing of Rocco does close off the easiest way forward, of extraditing him to Italy and putting the screws on him. But it does not close off ALL roads forward. Work goes on. Someone will talk.

Stay tuned. It may take a while, but it ain’t yet over.

Posted on 09/07/17 at 01:19 PM by Peter QuennellClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Saturday, August 26, 2017

Justice Systems Comparisons #7: Common Law (US Etc) V. Civil (Italian) On Self-Represented Litigants

Posted by Chimera

One Of Many Self-Help Videos Now Springing Up Online

1. The Series Context

Several posts since my previous one drew attention to an estimated 200,000 or more poor Americans wrongly sitting in prison.

They are there because trial outcomes differ widely according to how much those charged can afford to pay or can handle their defense on their own, and there are pressures (political and economic) to keep the partly privatised prisons full to capacity.

Oh, those who have been slamming Italian justice forgot to tell you that?! 

Italian perps remain MUCH better off, but this post explains progress elsewhere now being made.

Here are my previous six posts. I use the Canadian system as the common law example. But as the posts explain, the US and UK systems are pretty close. 

Click here for post: Justice System Comparisons #1: Had Meredith’s Murder Taken Place In Canada 

Click here for post: Justice System Comparisons #2: Canada’s Tough Penalties For Slander, False Accusations, Perjury 

Click here for post: Justice System Comparisons #3: Bail, Extradition, and More Crimes In Canadian Law 

Click here for post: Justice System Comparisons #4: How Canada And Italy Shape Up Against The US 

Click here for post: Justice Systems Comparisons #5: How Appeals Differ in Italy and Common Law Countries 

Click here for post: Justice Systems Comparisons #6: Common Law (US Etc) V. Civil (Italian) On Double Jeopardy

2. Rights And Protections Of Self Represented Litigants

In 2006, the Canadian Judicial Counsel released their STATEMENT OF PRINCIPLES ON SELF REPRESENTED LITIGANTS AND ACCUSED PERSONS.  Here is a direct link to that article.

Among some of those well intentioned principles are:

(a) Self-represented persons should not be denied relief on the basis of a minor or easily rectified deficiency in their case.

(b) Judges should ensure that procedural and evidentiary rules are not used to unjustly hinder the legal interests of self-represented persons.

(c) Judges and court administrators should do whatever is possible to provide a fair and impartial process and prevent an unfair disadvantage to self-represented persons.

(d) Judges, the courts and other participants in the justice system have a responsibility to promote access to the justice system for all persons on an equal basis, regardless of representation.

The Alberta Court of Appeal (May 2, 2016) allowed the appeal.

Now, the Supreme Court of Canada has endorsed the document and from this point, all Judges/Justices/JP will be obligated to follow it when one or more parties before them is self-represented.

Pintea v. Johns, 2017 SCC 23 (CanLII)

Pintea v. Johns

Valentin Pintea v. Dale Johns, et al.

In laymen’s terms, the gross imbalance between represented/unrepresented litigants will shrink.

The Courts will now be obligated to go the extra mile to ensure that the proceedings are done fairly, and in the overall interests of justice.  The ruling goes even further than what may be expected.

“Judges have a responsibility to inquire whether self-represented persons are aware of their procedural options, and to direct them to available information if they are not. Depending on the circumstances and nature of the case, judges may explain the relevant law in the case and its implications, before the self-represented person makes critical choices.”

So Canada, and to a degree the United States, is trending towards self representation.

Litigants already represent themselves in small claims court, family court, traffic, landlord/tenant disputes, and occasionally in criminal court.

To be fair though, routine self-representation in criminal court is a long ways off.  However, the pattern seems to be moving away from using lawyers, which many people believe to be expensive and largely ineffectual.

Also noteworthy is that in the Canadian Provinces of Ontario and British Columbia, paralegals are becoming more common as an alternative to lawyers. 

Again, the price involved deters most people from hiring lawyers.  Why pay 10 times as much for the same service?  Why pay for a lawyer when many farm their work out to paralegals? Other Provinces have something similar, as do many U.S. States.

Ontario: How Can a Paralegal Help?

British Columbia Paralegal Assoc

3. A Final Thought

Justice should be available to everyone, not just those who can dig deep for a lawyer.  The options of lower cost legal help, and the new requirements of Judges to ensure fairness, will likely go a long way to seeing this happen.

Posted on 08/26/17 at 10:25 PM by ChimeraClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Friday, August 18, 2017

Kercher Lawyer Dr Maresca Slams Tin-Eared Knox Over “Inopportune Plans” To Visit Perugia

Posted by Hopeful



Dr Maresca welcoming Meredith’s family to trial court in 2009

1. Today’s Reporting

The Daily Mail headline today 8/18/17 says this:

Murdered Meredith Kercher’s family condemn Amanda Knox over ‘inopportune plans’ to revisit Italian town where the British student was killed

Subheading: Ms. Knox, 30, wants to return so she can overcome the trauma of imprisonment

The Kercher family lawyer, our dear Francesco Maresca, the lion of Perugia who never wastes words, condemns the nutter Knox, the eternal troublemaker that she is.

Knox told People magazine of her evil plans: “The only way that I’m going to come full circle is by physically, literally, coming full circle.”

Knox said, “I know that Perugia is probably the least welcome place for me in the entire world. And that’s scary, but it also means a lot to me, not to be afraid of a place and see Perugia through my family’s eyes.” (can you believe it, she uses her family as an excuse to return to the scene of the crime, unrivalled ingrate)

“My family lived in Perugia for years to support me and they made relationships. I made a relationship with the priest at the prison, and those things still matter to me.” (what gall, has she been to see a priest in Seattle since 2015?)

Francesco Maresca the Kercher family lawyer said that Ms. Knox is NOT WELCOME in Perugia. Amen to that.

Maresca told The Telegraph:  “I believe Amanda Knox’s choice to return is totally inopportune because the death of Meredith was very painful for Perugia and people there feel they have never had a satisfactory response from the Italian justice system.”

Maresca said, “That is why Knox should think about her life without continuing to return to this sad affair from which she has been the only one to profit, both in terms of fame and money.”

2. My Commentary

What Insolence and Unbridled Triumphalism of Evil

The criminal always returns to the scene of the crime. Why? because he has so much invested in it of himself and his moment of power.

Knox is a moth to a flame, she can never learn.

The valiant Attorney Maresca condemns her motives and tells her in gentler words than mine to “GET A LIFE” and to not parade her sorry self through the streets she tormented and flout the Perugians who she ripped off of so much money to investigate her crime.

Perugia had to pay judges and police and lab techs and a myriad of costs, thousands and millions$ of euro to give that young imposter and troublemaker and promiscuous idiot her courtrooms and to house her and feed her in Capanne prison only then to be made the brunt of street riots and shouting mobs at doors of courthouse after verdicts were announced.

More importantly Perugia suffered the heartless loss of lovely Meredith in their formerly happy village. They suffered the jaundiced eye of the American PR steamroller trying to find fault with their sincere and earnest investigation. Perugia had endless patience with the animal known as Knox whose father and loudmouth mother paraded in and out of their decent streets while paying PR firms to paint Knox a misunderstood Madonna instead of the kicking goat they had raised.

Perugia got the awful reputation of the beautiful Meredith’s murder and the seamy underbelly of drug crime that Knox the dopehead brought to light.

Then the Sollecito family rose up to condemn the Perugian police and justice officials as country clowns, and after all the Perugians’ costly hard work to give Meredith peace and a just outcome to punish those who destroyed her, the American PR hydrogen bomb blasted over them like an evil Goliath before David put him down. I hope she meets a David in Perugia, the arrogant twerp.

I hope Knox gets more than she bargains for, much much more and worse if she sashays her shameless self once again in the town that she used as a platform to show her tail, and as Maresca says, to profit from all the fallout of her own evil, her ill gotten fame and some money with it. She still owes Lumumba, pay him if you walk by the crumbled Le Chic on your drunken journey with your foolish compatriot Robinson, a blind man if there ever were one.

She adds insult to injury and proves to the world she is an absolute moron yet a cunning and deceitful enemy who revels in the triumph of her will over others, her daring over what is right.

Maresca tells the beast to ‘GET A LIFE’ and stop cruelly dancing at the scene of the crime.

She was given mercy, not justice. Now she lies about the motive for her visit to Perugia, shielding herself by suggesting her family’s friends and the priest there mean so very much to her. Right. Has she been to mass twice since her release? Has she donated to Seattle Prep? Has she donated to the Catholic Church? let me guess…but now the tenuous relationship with the Priest of Capanne is the ruse she uses to excuse her return to Perugia to further slap them in the face.

Liar liar, don’t trust a word she says.

Posted on 08/18/17 at 03:16 PM by HopefulClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Wednesday, August 16, 2017

Netflixhoax 19(c) - Yet More On A Genuine, Huge Justice Problem In The US Dishonest Netflix Ignored

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters

Netflix enabled Knox to sustain her myth of how awful Italian prison life was for her.

First, do notice that Netflix ignored that Knox was in prison for three of her four years quite validly for a felony conviction: her attempt (sustained over several weeks) to try to frame Patrick for Meredith’s murder.

Even now, she still owes Patrick damages of around $100,000 irrevocably confirmed by the Supreme Court. Netflix ignored that also.

Second, do notice that Netflix ignored that that Knox quite provably made up a lot about her prison stay in Capanne and how she was actually treated.

In this post challenging all those claims, we observed that Knox did not have a single witness confirming her accounts.

In fact both the US Embassy which monitored her and the Italian MP Rocco Girlanda who “monitored” her confirmed her treatment was kindly, and her lawyers confirmed that she never ever asked that a complaint be filed. 

And third, not only is no Italian prison the hellhole that Netflix watchers were led to believe. Though there has been temporary overcrowding due to immigrant crime, they are in general among the most humane prisons anywhere on the planet.

That post 18 months ago drew upon a New York Times report. Today the New York Times posts an editorial which shows the gap in humanity between Italian and American prisons is actually deliberately worsening. 

Another contrast in Italy’s favor, ignored of course by Netflix.

Criminal justice officials across the country are struggling to break the recidivism cycle in which prisoners are released only to land right back behind bars. These prisoners are among the most poorly educated people in the country, and that fact holds the key to a solution. Decades of research has shown that inmates who participate in prison education programs — even if they fail to earn degrees — are far more likely to stay out of prison once they are freed.

That prison education programs are highly cost effective is confirmed by a 2013 RAND Corporation study that covered 30 years of prison education research. Among other things, the study found that every dollar spent on prison education translated into savings of $4 to $5 on imprisonment costs down the line.

Other studies suggest that prisons with education programs have fewer violent incidents, making it easier for officials to keep order, and that the children of people who complete college are more likely to do so themselves, disrupting the typical pattern of poverty and incarceration.

Findings like these have persuaded corrections officials in both Democratic and Republican states to embrace education as a cost-effective way of cutting recidivism. But Republican legislators in New York — which spends about $60,000 per inmate per year — remain mired in know-nothingism and argue that spending public money on inmates insults taxpayers. They have steadfastly resisted Gov. Andrew Cuomo’s common-sense proposal for making a modest investment in prison education programs that have already proved highly successful on a small scale in New York’s prisons.

The Manhattan district attorney, Cyrus Vance Jr., stepped into the void left by the Legislature when he agreed l to pay for Governor Cuomo’s prison education plan with more than $7 million in criminal forfeiture money secured from banks. Lauding what he described as a public safety measure, Mr. Vance said, “It makes no sense to send someone to prison with no pathway for them to succeed.”

The goal of the program is to expand the number of inmates taking college courses to about 3,500 across much of the system from 1,000. The curriculum will be broad, covering science, math, philosophy, the social sciences and art. Among the schools that will participate are Cornell University, New York University, Mercy College and Bard College, which has run a highly regarded program since 2001. The recidivism rate is 4 percent for inmates who participate in the program and a mere 2 percent for those who earn degrees in prison, compared with about 40 percent for the New York State prison system as a whole.

Prison education programs were largely dismantled during the “tough on crime” 1990s, when Congress stripped inmates of the right to get the federal Pell grants that were used to pay tuition. The decision bankrupted many prison education programs across the country and left private donors and foundations to foot the bill for those that survived.

Despite limited and unreliable funding, these programs have more than proved their value. New York lawmakers who continue to block funding for them are putting ideology ahead of the public interest.

Posted on 08/16/17 at 11:58 AM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Friday, August 11, 2017

Netflixhoax 19(b) - More On A Genuine, Huge Justice Problem In The US Dishonest Netflix Ignored

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters



Is the US actually worse than North Korea of all places? In one respect yes.

Our first post a couple of weeks ago on false incarcerations concluded this way: 

The American prison population is proportionally six times the Italian prison population (why did Netflix omit that?). Mental illness among that population is rife, and few inmates have above average IQs.

Election-driven prosecutors plea-bargaining with threats may have wrongly put many of them there. Maybe 10 per cent.

That is over 200,000 Americans in the wrong place. Funny how Netflix (and the FOA fanatics) forgot to tell us about that.

“Over 200,000” could in fact be a considerable UNDER estimate. An estimated 177,624 innocent Americans pleaded guilty in one year (2013) alone.

Here is The New York Times on this subject this past Tuesday.

By Marc Morje Howard

The American criminal justice system is exceptional, in the worst way possible: It combines exceptionally coercive plea bargaining, exceptionally long sentences, exceptionally brutal prison conditions and exceptionally difficult obstacles to societal re-entry.

This punitiveness makes us stand out as uniquely inhumane in comparison with other industrialized countries…. There’s widespread agreement that current practices are unsustainable.

The United States is home to 5 percent of the world’s population, yet has 25 percent of the world’s prisoners. The grim reality of American justice is that there are 2.3 million people behind bars, five million on parole or probation, 20 million with felony convictions and over 70 million with a criminal record.

Though mafia-tool Netflix ignored them all in its crazed rush to defame the Italian system, every day in the US new reports on this world-beating iniquity are being televised or published.

Why does it happen? In large part because THERE IS PROFIT IN IT. Profits for private prisons and bail-sharks. 

The video at top is a trailer for a new documentary just being released: A Deal With The Devil Devil’ Takes On Unjust Bail System

By Susie Madrak

A plea deal is an arrangement to resolve a case without going to trial. This is an option most often taken by those who cannot afford bail and want to go home instead of wait days, months, even years locked up in jail. An estimated 177,624 innocent Americans pleaded guilty in 2013 alone. Does this sound like a just system to you?

The money bail system is broken: private companies achieve exorbitant profits by scavenging off of communities (primarily of color) living in poverty. Low-income Americans are sitting in jails for days, months, and even years for the most minor of infractions simply because they can’t afford to pay high bond amounts. The reality is that the majority of people in jails – over 70% - are there for one simple reason: their income status. This is both morally and legally wrong.

And from now until August 21, 2017, Brave New Films will be campaigning to #EndMoneyBail this summer in the state of California.

Premiere events around the state are scheduled in key legislative districts, with audiences ranging from Bay Area activists and advocates to Los Angeles poets and politicians. Social media launches will coincide each week, with new videos from Brave New Films and other partners in the California Bail Coalition. People who can’t attend premiere events and screenings can host their own in-home events with all of our films before they’re released publicly and everybody should call their Assembly members demanding they #EndMoneyBail this summer.

Posted on 08/11/17 at 12:21 PM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Sunday, August 06, 2017

Meredith’s Perugia #36: Popular Beaches In Italy’s Deep South She Will Never See

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters

Posted on 08/06/17 at 02:20 PM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Saturday, July 29, 2017

Yet More American Lawyers Get Duped By Knox: Now Los Angeles’s Westside Bar Association

Posted by Hopeful



Duped? WBA founder and Beverley Hills lawyer Daniel Forouzan



The previous instance of this - in front of the Kentucky Bar Association - occurred only one month ago.

We shot Knox’s anticipated false claims down very extensively.

There may have been an effort to have this one fly under the radar - there was no advance media notice that we could see, only this Facebook notice which may soon scroll (or be deleted) away.

This new instance is reported by Ann Schmidt in the Daily Mail today 7/29/17. Headline: ‘Prison changed me forever’: Amanda Knox speaks about how the murder trial and four years in prison defined her

Knox spoke Thursday in Los Angeles to the Westside Bar Association, about her “two wrongful convictions” for the 2007 murder of her British roommate, Meredith Kercher, before she was acquitted. She spoke about the pain she went through.

Knox: “I went into prison as not yet a woman and I came out an adult woman, and that period defined me, ” she told KTLA Thursday.

In her appearance the Seattle native was also promoting her memoir and the Netflix documentary about her trial. “I realized the courtroom was actually a battleground for storytelling where the most compelling story and not necessarily the most truthful wins, ” she said.

Zohreen Adamjee of Fox 11 reported her saying,

Amanda Knox, sharing her story of how two wrongful convictions for the murder of her British roommate Meredith Kercher in Italy have changed her.

“I realized the courtroom was actually a battleground for storytelling. Where the most compelling story and not necessarily the most truthful wins,” said Knox.

In a rare L.A. appearance, Knox confronted the image the world has painted of her - addressing a room full of lawyers who fight for the wrongly convicted.

“The truth doesn’t fit in a headline or a tweet or a fairytale format,

At one point, she says prosecutors lied, telling her she tested positive for AIDS, making her make a list of every person she had ever slept with.”

“The unfortunate thing about this case is that the prosecution decided before the evidence came in, that I had to be guilty,” she said.

“Everyone in my family suffered, and the worst thing of all—they didn’t feel like they could share that with me, because I was in trouble.”

She told the L.A. law panel that she wants to use her experience to help the wrongly convicted and the Innocence Project. From the Daily Mail:

“I have to tell my story so that the echo of it can reach people.”

“I just want to show that it’s not this distant, difficult to understand thing. It’s a human thing that can happen to anyone at anytime. No one is safe, but we can understand it.”

The article is accompanied by a photo of Curt Knox wearing a black leather jacket inside the courtroom in 2009; a selfie of Knox and new beau Chris Robinson wearing matching gray felt hats during their recent trip to the Black Forest in a quaint European tourist town, I think.

There’s a stock photo of Rudy being escorted by four blue beret wearing Italian policemen in dark navy blue uniforms.

The Daily Mail comments are vitriolic, with only a few fans rooting for Knox.

“Guilty as H…”

“I get really bad vibes from this woman.”

“I am still not sure about her. I suspect she was involved but I’m not clear how.”

“no, committing murder changed her forever.”

The current photo of her assuming it was taken at the Los Angeles Westside Bar Association speech, was grainy and small.

It appeared she had teased her hair into a more sophisticate upswept style for the event, seemed to wear a white collared blouse, was hard to tell from bad tiny photo or maybe just my laptop distortion.

My main reaction to the blah blah blah Foxy usual speech, is that she is so wrong to condemn the prosecution for what amounts to criminal bias against her before evidence came in.

She’s a branded liar as the duped lawyers could very easily have found out. Click on the link at the top for our disparagement.

Posted on 07/29/17 at 04:25 PM by HopefulClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Wednesday, July 26, 2017

Where Should You Have Invested This Year? The US Or Italy?

Posted by Peter Quennell





Where should you have put your nestegg at the start of this year for maximum gains?

Sorry to those who picked the US (and Trumponomics).

(1) The chart above shows a bundle of Italian stocks (EWI) against a bundle of US stocks (DOW).

As of today US stocks have gone up around 10 percent - but Italian stocks (green curve) have gone up 12 percent above that.

(2) The chart below shows the dollar against the Euro (Italy’s currency).

As of today, the Euro is about 10 percent up on the dollar for the year.

So you would have been much better off in Italy. It wins hands down - it has gained overall about 20 percent compared to the US.

The overall value of the US - stocks and currency combined - is actually under water.


Posted on 07/26/17 at 12:52 PM by Peter QuennellClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Friday, July 21, 2017

Netflixhoax 19 - Omitted The Vital Context Of A Genuine, Huge Justice Problem In The US

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters


1. Series Overview

The 18 past posts can be read here. In the light of the Netflix report’s nomination for a major award we resume. Full speed ahead.

2. Italian Justice: What Netflix Left Out

In the United States outrage is, well, all the rage… A clear Netflix intent was to horrify and outrage viewers about the Italian justice system itself.

Read the numerous reviews and thousands of comments that imply the system is dangerous and corrupt. Including the very common “I would never send my kid to college there” and “I will never risk traveling there” and “we should boycott Italian goods”. 

Show it as it really is - an extremely fair system from the perps’ point of view that allows ZERO wrongful convictions at the end of the day - and the whole Netflix thesis falls apart.

In Post 6 we described the almost unique carefulness of the Italian system.

How prosecutors can explain their case only in court. How the system allows perps two automatic appeals. How appeals often feature new juries - which never get to hear the full prosecution case.

How the same defense teams get to argue in court all the way up to the Supreme Court while the trial prosecution gets to present its full case just the once.

How the REAL justice system requires that many judgments should be written out at costly length. How prison time is almost never served for sentences under three years.

How most of the prisons are very nice and all perps receive mental treatment if prescribed, and taught a trade so they dont have to commit new crimes to pay their way when out.

The plea-bargain possibility does not exist in the uniquely open and transparent Italian system at all. No furtive shortcuts. No extreme pressure on suspected perps.

Judges, prosectors and especially police must go the extra mile, often over many years, to ever finally win a case.

3. American Justice: What Netflix Left Out

Netflix left out A LOT. See the numerous for-comparison posts here.

Sadly judges and lawyers in the American system can be among the eagerly gullible about both the Italian system and their own.

But there ARE American judges and lawyers who FULLY understand the Italian system and wish some of that could be applied in the US.

In the video at top Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz is quoted as saying this.

“We treat poor people and minority people much worse in the United States by our criminal justice system than they do in Italy, so we really have no standing to tell other countries that their system is unfair.

And based on [the evidence against Knox], in America, if she were not an attractive young woman — if she were an ordinary person — charged on the basis of this evidence, she would be convicted and would be serving life imprisonment, or even worse, the death penalty in the United States.”

In the United States pervasive plea-bargaining is making juries obsolete.

Trial by jury has become so rare in modern American criminal jurisprudence that the chance of being convicted at trial is little more than one in one hundred.

That doesn’t mean that people are not getting convicted. They are—in record number. America’s prisons are literally filled to capacity.

In today’s criminal justice system, convictions come by agreement. The tradition of being tried by one’s peers, established centuries ago and affirmed by the Sixth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution has all but disappeared.

The plea bargain has made jury trials obsolete.

The GOOD aspect is that it can get convictions fast. That is the BAD aspect too.

Very few cases end in acquittal - vastly fewer than in Italy. Tough sentences and even the death penalty are often used as a threat.

“We now have an incredible concentration of power in the hands of prosecutors,” said Richard E. Myers II, a former assistant United States attorney who is now an associate professor of law at the University of North Carolina. He said that so much influence now resides with prosecutors that “in the wrong hands, the criminal justice system can be held hostage.

In effect judges and juries are being sidelined and defense lawyers are faced with strong odds.

A case in Pennsylvania has suddenly put such plea-bargaining in the national news - not because the accused perp didnt do it, but actually because the threat of death penalty was said to have been too lightly used.

In so swiftly wrapping up the case, which transfixed the Philadelphia region, the district attorney of Bucks County, Matthew D. Weintraub, faced questions about whether he had made the right call in taking the most severe punishment for horrible crimes off the table.

Experts in death penalty law said the agreement was especially notable for its speed. But the father of one of the young men found dead said on Monday that family members of all of the victims supported it.

There was no judicial review. Oh and he was mentally deranged.

The American prison population is proportionally six times the Italian prison population (why did Netflix omit that?). Mental illness among that population is rife, and few inmates have above average IQs.

Election-driven prosecutors plea-bargaining with threats may have wrongly put many of them there. Maybe 10 per cent.

That is over 200,000 Americans in the wrong place. Funny how Netflix forgot to tell us about that.

Posted on 07/21/17 at 10:00 PM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Thursday, July 13, 2017

Justice Systems Comparisons #6: Common Law (US Etc) V. Civil (Italian) On Double Jeopardy

Posted by Chimera



Palazzo Giustizia above in Reggio Calabria, below in Naples

1. The Series Context

You’d think there’d be lots of comparisons at national level between the two great justice systems of the world. But really there are not.

The dishonest Knox and Sollecito PR often uses disparities between the Italian and US/UK systems to confuse, and to try to make the excellent Italian system look bad. 

The common-law lawyers from the US and UK who post here on Italy sometimes say they have to study quite a bit to get things straight. UK lawyer James Raper’s excellent book translates some of the key concepts that can be confused as he did here.

These are my previous five posts. I use the Canadian system as the common law example. But as the posts explain, the US and UK systems are pretty close. 

Click here for post:  Justice System Comparisons #1: Had Meredith’s Murder Taken Place In Canada 

Click here for post:  Justice System Comparisons #2: Canada’s Tough Penalties For Slander, False Accusations, Perjury 

Click here for post:  Justice System Comparisons #3: Bail, Extradition, and More Crimes In Canadian Law 

Click here for post:  Justice System Comparisons #4: How Canada And Italy Shape Up Against The USJustice System Comparisons #4: How Canada And Italy Shape Up Against The US 

Click here for post:  Justice Systems Comparisons #5: How Appeals Differ in Italy and Common Law Countries 

2. Double Jeopardy

Much angry noise has been made about the October 2011 “acquittal” of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito by the Hellmann appeal court in the murder of Meredith Kercher.  The claim was been made that an acquittal at trial means that under American law, it would be “double jeopardy” and hence, illegal, under American law.

While the “appellate trial” differs considerably from appeals in Common Law countries, it is still an appeal.  Portions of the case can be reopened, but the Trial Court’s original findings are the starting point.  It is not meant to be a “new trial”, nor to re-try the case.

“If” an Appeals Court releases a defendant, it is not double jeopardy, as it is not a Trial Court.  They do not try the case, but rather examine it for errors.  Further if a 1st level appeal releases someone, the prosecution can still seek a higher level of appeal.

Read Harvard Law School’s Alan Dershowitz here.

3. Legal Outcomes 2007-09

  • November 6, 2007—AK and RS were charged for rape and murder of MK, alongside PL, whom Knox has accused as the actual killer

  • November 9, 2007—AK/RS faced Judge Claudia Matteini, to see if they could be released conditionally (their 1st Court hearing), and to get a brief assessment of the Prosecution case.  While FoAK crow about there being no bail in Italy, this hearing seems eerily similar to a bail hearing.

  • November 30, 2007—AK/RS challenged Judge Matteini’s decisions (their 2nd Court hearing), and Judge Massimo Ricciarelli presided over a 3 Judge panel which confirmed the detention, but with Rudy Guede as the 3rd person, as opposed to PL.

  • April 1, 2008—AK/RS tried to get released again (their 3rd Court hearing on the matter), and the 5 Judge Cassation panel headed by Judge Torquato Gemelli denied the request, and even the lesser request of house arrest

  • September/October 2008—Pretrial (and Guede’s short form trial) presided over by Judge Paolo Micheli.  Judge Micheli convicted RG, and sent AK/RS to trial.

  • December 2009—AK and RS were convicted at trial by the Court of Judge Giancarlo Massei.


4. Legal Outcomes 2010-15

In 2010 AK/RS then chose to APPEAL those convictions and filed such an appeal.

  • October 2011—AK/RS were “acquitted” of murder by the Appellate Court headed by Hellmann and Zanetti, though the Calunnia conviction was upheld.

The Prosecution then filed a SECONDARY APPEAL to the Court of Cassation

  • March 2013—AK/RS had their “acquittal” by H/Z annulled, while the calunnia conviction was upheld, with aggravating factors added back on.

AK/RS chose to file ANOTHER APPEAL of the 2009 Trial Conviction, this time it went to Florence.  Not a new trial, but another appeal.  Knox didn’t show up.

  • January 2014—AK/RS had their 2009 conviction “confirmed” by the Court of Judge Nencini, with a small sentence increase for AK.

AK/RS then filed a SECONDARY APPEAL to the Court of Cassation.  The 5th Chambers took the case.

  • March 2015—AK/RS had their convictions thrown out by the panel of Bruno/Marasca.  However, the report released in September 2015 didn’t actually say they were innocent.  in fact, the report placed AK at the crime scene, and RS probably so.  The Court found both had lied repeatedly.


5. These Damning Posts Relate

Click here for post:  The Knox Interrogation Hoax #13: The First Two Opportunities Knox Flunked: Matteini & Ricciarelli

Click here for post:  Tape ‘puts Knox at Meredith murder scene’

Click here for post:  The Knox Interrogation Hoax #14: The Third Opportunity Knox Flunked: The Mignini Interview

Click here for post:  The Knox Interrogation Hoax #15: Dr Mignini’s Account Of Formal Warning Session Ending 5:45 AM

Click here for post:  The Knox Interrogation Hoax #16: The Fourth Opportunity Knox Flunked: The Supreme Court

Click here for post:  The Knox Interrogation Hoax #18: The Final Pre-Trial Opportunities Which Knox Flunked

6. Two Constitutions Compared

(A) U.S. Constitution, 5th Amendment

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


(B) Canada Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Part 11(h)

11. Any person charged with an offence has the right…. (h) if finally acquitted of the offence, not to be tried for it again and, if finally found guilty and punished for the offence, not to be tried or punished for it again;....

Notes: Both the U.S and Canadian Justice systems prohibit a person from being punished twice for the same offence.  The main distinction is the word “finally” in the Canadian system.  In the American system, an acquittal is the end of the matter, barring some obscene act, such as bribing a judge.  Is the Canadian system, an acquittal “may” be appealed in extremely limited cases, such as gross misconduct, or clearly inappropriate handling by the Trial Court.

7. Standard for Review

(A) U.S. Appeals

Click here for post:  Definitions: legal concepts for appeal

Matters of Fact—May be challenged if the they are reviewed in a clearly erroneous manner

Matters of Law—Must be considered “de novo” as if there was no finding before

Matters of Discretion—Judges are given wide discretion and it is usually accepted, unless there are clear errors, or the conclusion is illogical


(B) Canadian Appeals

The standard is set by Housen v. Nikolaisen

Click here for post:  Housen v. Nikolaisen Supreme Court Judgment

Factual Findings—These are typically “given deference”, unless the Appellant can show “overriding, palpable error”.

Legal Findings—The Standard is whether the law was “correctly” applied.

In layman’s terms, Appeals Courts “defer” to the Trial Court on the fact findings.  They assume that the Trial Court is in a better position to see and to examine the case.  They will not interfere unless there is a clear, and provable error that effected the outcome.  Surprisingly, it is a much higher standard than challenging the law.

Notes: In both US and Canadian appeals, the Courts tend to accept factual findings unless there is very clearly an error.  Both also tend to view potential legal matters as needing to be consistently applied.  Both Courts also tend to accept the Trial Court’s discretionary decisions unless something is obviously off.  Although the language used varies, the standards quite similar.

8. Cases of “Double Jeopardy”

(A) “Double Jeopardy” U.S.A.

Harry Aleman

This involved a man who was “acquitted” in a murder case.  However, it was later found that the trial judge, Frank Wilson had been bribed to the tune of $10,000, and that the trial had been rigged.  Prosecutors appealed, successfully, that since the case had been pre-arranged, the defendant had never been in jeopardy, and hence there was no “double jeopardy”.  Eventually this was confirmed by the US Supreme Court.

Click here for post:  Wikipedia: Harry Aleman

Click here for post:  Aleman v Cook County

Click here for post:  Man Faces 2d Trial on Murder Charge

Click here for post:  Exception To Double Jeopardy


(B) CANADA

Most of the cases which involved an acquittal being appealed were cases of sexual assault where the Trial Judge grossly mishandled the manner

Here is a particularly harsh appeal review:

Click here for post:  Reasons for judgment:  underage sexual attacker

Some media reports on the topic

Click here for post:  Crown appealing sex assault acquittal of taxi driver

Click here for post:  Judge asked complainant why she couldn’t just keep knees together

Click here for post:  Chief judge launches review of Edmonton judge

Click here for post:  Third Alberta judge faces review

Click here for post:  4 Alberta judges under scrutiny

Note: To a degree, this is comparing apples and oranges.  The US case of Harry Aleman was a case where a defendant literally “bought” a murder acquittal for a mere $10,000.  The Canadian cases listed were ones where the Trial Judge was grossly incompetent, and either unable or unwilling to handle a sexual assault case properly.  However, in both sets of circumstances, justice is not served at the trial court level, so it has to be “redone”.

Note: Also, in the cases of mistrials, re-trials of defendants are often permitted, depending on the circumstances.

9. How This Compares to Italy

(Some additional input from knowledgeable people appreciated)

1. The trial (the one and only trial), took place throughout 2009—the Massei Court—and it was to try the facts, and to hear testimony.

2. The 1st level appeal, an appellate trial (requested by AK/RS) was to determine if any major errors had been committed that would have changed the outcome.  And, unlike in the Common Law, the Defense could reopen portions of the case.

3. The 2nd level appeal—to the Court of Cassation—is to determine if there were any serious legal errors, or if the Lower Court rulings were based on illogical or contradictory thoughts.  It is not to retry the case, or rehear the evidence.

4. The “Appellate Trial” doesn’t exist in the Common Law systems, rather there is a clear distinction between “trial” and “appeal”.  Italy allows this step in a benefit to Defendants which would not otherwise be available.

5. Another benefit for Italian Defendants: those 2 appeals are available upon request.  Under the Canadian/US laws, defendants can immediately file notice of appeal on the 1st instance, though it can be dismissed before the hearing.  For 2nd level appeals, leave is required (“leave” is legalese for “permission”), which is difficult to get.

6. Acquittals in Italian Courts can be overturned if it was based on clear errors in law, or illogical conclusions, just as Canadian cases can.  That is what happened with the Hellmann ruling.

7. Acquittals in Italian Courts can be overturned if there was clear misconduct or illegal action which altered the outcome.

10. Footnote

The Italian appeal standard seems to be closer to the Canadian model.  The American system (so far) requires blatant criminal behaviour, not just incompetence.


Posted on 07/13/17 at 02:22 PM by ChimeraClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Wednesday, July 05, 2017

Why The Italian Court System Is Very Unlikely To Do Any Favors For Sollecito & Knox Ever Again

Posted by Peter Quennell




1. Context

By any standards the ruling by the Supreme Court’s Fifth Chambers in 2015 springing RS and AK was a confusing bit of legal work.

The statement from the Bench in March was unquivocal but the written report six months later was a lot less so.

We have taken it apart in numerous posts, for example here and here. Also here and here and here.

The other day we corrected the Kentucky Bar Association when, in promoting a talk by Knox, they stated that Knox was “definitively acquitted”.

No she wasn’t.

Read here. The Fifth Chambers was assigned the case through quite open defense manipulation. It does not normally handle murder cases, and neither the lead judge nor the writer of the sentencing report had previously handled murder cases. Their reasoning was torturous, evidence was cherry-picked, and it seems certain any experienced and trained murder-case judges would have found for guilt here.

Read here  Knox was in fact found to have been at the scene of the crime, and with blood on her hands. The Supreme Court’s Fifth Chambers in fact handed down the weakest possible “not guilty” sentence, not guilty due to “insufficient evidence” (though see below; most of it they ignored, and the trial prosecution was not even at the Supreme Court) which allows an appeal if the prosecution or victim’s family wish to take up that option.

So the 2015 report was not THAT confusing, and really only gave RS and AK half a break.

2. New Development

So why is the Italian Court System unlikely to do any favors for Sollecito & Knox ever again?

In a nutshell: too many lies. In fact it is a crime in Italy to lie about a court outcome. Judgements are only ever issued in non-editable photocopies so they cannot be monkeyed with.

Knox and Sollecito and their foolish lawyers and apologists have been very publicly lying about the true outcome for two years. They have mangled a translation, cherrypicked repeatedly, and ignored half of the truth.  They have made numerous claims like “definitively acquitted” which the report itself does not support.

This lying on a grand scale is believed to have finally touched a real nerve in the Italian courts. Just way too many lies.  Already the defamations by Sollecito in his book had been ruled against by the Florence court, and some negative outcome seems to be in the works.

Now we see Sollecito’s appeal seeking major damages for having been locked up so very sharply shot down.

Any past mafia influence seems to have waned. And it looks like the incessant very public lying by Sollecito and Knox and their lawyers and apologists will cost them in future in court.

Amanda Knox’s numerous defamations and toxic PR are expected to cost her big soon too. Wise move? Mislead no more.

Posted on 07/05/17 at 11:16 AM by Peter QuennellClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Monday, July 03, 2017

Here’s Something Important That Factors Into Our Interest In Cool-Headed Rational Communities.

Posted by Peter Quennell

Simple walking is rather startlingly proving to have health benefits beyond the obvious, and also major community benefits.

The main new finding for important health benefits is that the balancing required in walking adds neuron capacity to the hippocampus - a hybrid brain gland which also handles key components of memory, diminishment of which is behind memory loss and dementia.

Now there is also a new finding for the positive effects on community building and by extension better environmental and economic-growth prospects, as for both teamwork is vital.

The anti-twitter… !!

Cruising the US one can see in large areas decaying towns and failing communities. In places stark poverty. Often little mingling, and other than the local Walmart, no very enticing walking, either for locals or to entice any visitors.

Get walks going, guys? 

Already there’s begun a big push in the US to open up many more trails for walking. New York city, one of the world’s most walkable, is still adding or enhancing walks like the elevated Highline Park and the paths around the edge of Manhattan.

Trails hundreds even thousands of miles long are being created - by way of the Hudson River and the Erie Canal one can already walk or bicycle from NYC to Toronto or vice versa (think about it Ergon!).

The economic effect all along the way of these trails is becoming obvious.

Italy probably remains a very smart and creative country not least because places like Rome and Florence and Perugia become more walkable even as they become less drivable.

Posted on 07/03/17 at 09:38 AM by Peter QuennellClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Thursday, June 29, 2017

Sollecito Loses Supreme Court Appeal Against Florence Court Ruling Refusing $0.55M Damages Claim

Posted by Peter Quennell



Our previous posts on this can be seen here and here and here.

UK reporter Krissy Allen of Blasting News kindly summarises the Italian reporting.

Here are some excerpts. Emphasis is added to key sentences confirming a rebuttal of Knox claiming “vindication” in the post just below and in those earlier posts.

Raffaele Sollecito has today been denied any compensation for the four years he spent in prison, one year on remand, and three years until the final Supreme Court Appeal decision in March 2015.

The problem is, although acquitted, it was on the grounds of ‘insufficient evidence’ and not a straightforward exoneration.

After having to wait six months for the written reasons, in Sept 2015, Sollecito then had the way clear to put in a claim for compensation, which Italian law allows for wrongful imprisonment

However the statute that allows compensation for wrongful imprisonment specifically excludes defendants who lie to the police, described as ‘gross misconduct’.

In other words, the Florence Appeal Court in January this year dismissed Sollecito’s claim for this reason.

It deemed that Sollecito had committed ‘willful misconduct’ or ‘at the very least, gravely negligent or imprudent.’

It found it ‘implausible’ that he could not account for the movements of his then-girlfriend, Amanda Knox. It states that both he and Amanda Knox lied many times and that it was an ‘indisputable fact of absolute certainty’ that Knox was at the murder scene ‘when the young Meredith Kercher was murdered’.

Sollecito through his lawyer, Giulia Bongiorno immediately appealed to the Supreme Court, citing the fact of Rudy Guede’s shoeprint being mistaken for his. However, this was never the point of law for which Sollecito was refused his demand for the maximum €517,000 compensation….

It means the written reasons of the Florence Court of 10 Feb 2017, stands. It is damning and scathing of the pair’s behaviour throughout the investigation.

In effect, it blocks any compensation claim Amanda Knox might have had her eye on from Italy….

Sollecito’s lawyer, Bongiorno has made a statement that he now plans to take it to the European Court of Human Rights. This would not be an appeal as the ECHR has no jurisdiction to overturn the verdict. Rather, it can make an award should it decide there was unfairness in the procedure.

The average award of the ECHR is circa €3,500 - a far cry from the €517K Sollecito was demanding.

Also in La Republica the increasingly hapless Sollecito claims that he is near broke and he is unable to find a job because of the cloud hanging over him.

Maybe we’ll see yet another burst of anger against Knox for dropping him in this. It may actually gain him some sympathy, though it is hard to see that paying any bills.

In his ongoing Florence book trial he is going to have to admit publicly that he lied and defamed - defamed both numerous people and Italy and its justice system - the felony crimes of diffamazione and vilipendio.

Either that or end up with a huge award against him, maybe leaving him deeply in debt. 

Posted on 06/29/17 at 09:38 AM by Peter QuennellClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Friday, June 23, 2017

Correction To Fake News: Amanda Knox Was NOT Definitively Acquitted By Italy’s Supreme Court

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters



Kentucky Bar Assoc President Sullivan and President-Elect Garmer


Dear Kentucky Lawyers:

Amanda Knox is scheduled to address your conference late in the afternoon Friday. She is guaranteed to mislead you.

If your Association’s due diligence process had examined the mountain of hard facts, it is doubtful Knox would ever have been invited. Your online notice of today’s talk by Knox at your conference itself suggests a lack of due diligence. It wrongly reads as follows

On Friday 23 June the programming will be packed with fun and interesting sessions.. Topping off Friday’s schedule will be the featured presentation; AMANDA KNOX will share her story. She is the American exchange student who spent almost four years in an Italian prison, following her conviction for the 2007 murder of Meredith Kercher, a fellow exchange student who shared her apartment. In 2015, Knox was definitively acquitted.

No she wasn’t.

Read here. The Fifth Chambers was assigned the case through quite open defense manipulation. It does not normally handle murder cases, and neither the lead judge nor the writer of the sentencing report had previously handled murder cases. Their reasoning was torturous, evidence was cherry-picked, and it seems certain any experienced and trained murder-case judges would have found for guilt here.

Read here  Knox was in fact found to have been at the scene of the crime, and with blood on her hands. The Supreme Court’s Fifth Chambers in fact handed down the weakest possible “not guilty” sentence, not guilty due to “insufficient evidence” (though see below; most of it they ignored, and the trial prosecution was not even at the Supreme Court) which allows an appeal if the prosecution or victim’s family wish to take up that option.

Read here. Knox was definitively found guilty of calunnia (criminal defamation) against her boss, Patrick Lumumba. The Supreme Court in her final appeal confirmed that she falsely accused Patrick Lumumba, a black man, of murder. She served three years in prison, and is a convicted felon for life. (To date she has refused to pay compensation of about $100,000, placing her in contempt of the Supreme Court. So much for Knox “helping” the wrongfully imprisoned.)

Read here. That book by Knox - in an expanded but unrevised 2nd edition - is one of the most dishonest ever written. It contains an estimated 400-plus provable lies and up to 100 possible defamations. See this example. For those Knox still faces multiple possibilities of prosecution.

Read here. Also read here. The evidence against Knox and her co-defendant Sollecito was in fact massive, and when correctly seen as a whole (as only the 2009 trial jury saw, not the several appeal juries) absolutely damning. Read also here. Thereafter the gaming of the system began, starting with the defense procuring ANOTHER judge not qualified for murder trials (Judge Hellmann, now edged into early retirement) for their first (2011) appeal. 

Read here. If true to form Knox will again try to claim to your audience that police interrogators forced a false confession out of her. Again untrue. She was not interrogated on that night or any other night. In fact she was only ever interrogated twice, BOTH TIMES at her own request by Dr Mignini, in December 2007 and July 2009. She was given SIX court opportunities to get herself off before the 2009 trial - and she failed all of them.

Read here. The supremely fair Italian justice system comes out pretty well against other systems including the American system. Italy’s rate of incarceration is 1/6 that of the United States, and among Italians the system polls very positively.

There’s much more if your members are inclined to set up a task force. For the protection from fraud of bar associations everywhere, we would welcome that.

Posted on 06/23/17 at 12:00 AM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Sunday, May 28, 2017

Meredith’s Perugia #36: Aerial Perugia With High Definition Drone Photography

Posted by The TJMK Main Posters



Posted on 05/28/17 at 10:17 AM by The TJMK Main PostersClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Monday, May 22, 2017

See Taormina In Sicily, Host Town For The G7 Summit This Next Weekend

Posted by Peter Quennell

This was of course the G8 group prior to Mr Putin being disinvited. Sorry about that Vlad. Mr Trump is being welcomed, sort of, though security is intense and satires in the media ever moreso. Sorry about that Don. Mr Obama is also in Italy, cycling around somewhere further north, with what seems like zero security detail.

Posted on 05/22/17 at 04:54 PM by Peter QuennellClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Saturday, May 13, 2017

One Special Kind Of Journalism On the Grand Scale Italy Uniquely Inspires

Posted by Peter Quennell

MILANO from Davide on Vimeo.



If you keep a watchful eye on reporting on Italy, every few weeks you’ll see a report like this.

Jay Nordlinger went to Italy as a student - specifically to Milan - and just revisited it. He once again found a LOT to like.

There are many beautiful things in Milan, of course. Many beautiful works of art. But the city itself is a beautiful thing: a work of art. In my music criticism — concerning both compositions and performances — I often say, “Beauty isn’t everything. But it’s not nothing either.” The same is true of cities, I think. Beauty is not the be-all, end-all. But a little beauty … can make a nice difference. I recall what Ed Koch said about cities: Paris, the most beautiful. London, the most interesting. New York — his own — the most exciting, or dynamic.

The Milanese have style. For heaven’s sake, they’re Italian: The Italians have style. There is often a casual formality about them. And, among the older people, a certain courtliness. Can they be drama queens? Well, they wouldn’t want to betray their nationality, would they? Many of the women look and act as though they consider themselves to be works of art — and they are. Men in suits and ties, riding motor scooters, are a sight. I hear a dog not barking: I see just about no one wearing short sleeves, on a warm day.

Mirabile dictu, the window in my hotel room opens. How civilized. Unlike in America. Hang on, I will soon find out this is a mistake. The window is not supposed to open. Someone locks it. And I prevail on someone else to reopen it. Ah, civilization again. (I have promised not to jump out of this window.) (Much to the disappointment of my severest critics.)

Out my window, and all around the city, you hear the squeal of trams. It is a kind of music in Milan. Milanese risotto is a famous dish, yellow in color. I’m not sure what it is, exactly. But, when it’s good, it’ll bring tears to your eyes (not because it’s spicy). When I was a student, I practically lived on stracciatella — not the soup, but the ice-cream flavor (which, in short, is their chocolate chip). It hasn’t gotten any worse …

Posted on 05/13/17 at 07:49 PM by Peter QuennellClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Thursday, April 27, 2017

Multiple Attackers and the Compatibility of the Double DNA Knife (Exhibit 36)

Posted by James Raper

Our YouTube whiz DelPergola’s video of November 2010

Ed note: This evidence area is enormously compelling - but also emotionally difficult. It is why initially we did not publish our translation of the Micheli Report. And why a quarter of the trial was behind closed doors with the media excluded. That well-meaning decision has bedeviled the case ever since, because only the jury and others in court then - including the white-faced and tongue-tied accused pair - were exposed to the full power of the prosecution testimony.

Material from some of my previous posts on TJMK (link at bottom here) was incorporated into my Justice on Trial book. From Chapter 15, this is the second of several posts setting out further material.

Before looking at the forensic evidence, which is the final theme I identified earlier, it will be helpful to take into account the wounds suffered by Meredith, and whether these suggest anything as to the dynamics of the murder, and whether any of them were compatible with the knife recovered from Sollecito’s kitchen, Exhibit 36, called the Double DNA knife because the DNA of Meredith was found on the blade and the DNA of Knox on the handle.

As mentioned earlier the autopsy was carried out by Dr Lalli.

It was observed that there were no significant injuries to the chest, abdomen or lower limbs.

The significant elements in the examination were described as follows :

A fine pattern of petechiae on the internal eyelid conjunctive.

The presence of tiny areas of contusion at the level of the nose, localised around the nostrils and at the limen nasi [threshold of the nose].

Inside the mucous membranes of the lips, there were injuries compatible with a traumatic action localised in the inner surface of the lower lip and the inner surface of the upper lip, reaching up to the gum ridge.

Also found on the lower side of the jaw were some bruising injuries, and in the posterior region of the cheek as well, in proximity to the ear.

Three bruising injuries were present on the level of the lower edge of the right jaw with a roughly round shape. In the region under the jaw an area with a deep abrasion was observed, localised in the lower region of the middle part at the left of the jaw.

Once the neck had been cleaned it was possible to observe wounds that Dr Lalli attributed to the action of the point of a cutting instrument.

The main wound was located in the left lateral region of the neck. A knife would be compatible provided it had one cutting edge only which was not serrated. The wound was 8 cms in length and 8 cms deep. The width could not be measured because the edges had separated due to the elasticity of the tissues both in relation to the region and to the position of the head, which could have modified the width. The wound had a small “tail” at the posterior end. The wound penetrated into the interior structure of the neck in a slightly oblique direction, upwards and also to the right.

Underneath this large wound, another wound was visible, rather small and superficial, with not particularly clear edges, “becoming increasingly superficial until they disappeared”, in a reddish area of abrasions. The knife had penetrated both Meredith’s larynx and the cartilage of the epiglottis, and had broken her hyoid bone. A consequence of that damage is that Meredith would be unable to vocalise, let alone scream.

There was also a wound in the right lateral region of the neck, also attributed to a pointed cutting instrument. This was 4 cms deep and 1.5 cms wide (or long). It had not caused significant structural damage.

The presence of two relatively slight areas of bruising, with scarce colouring and barely noticeable, were detected in the region of the elbows.

On Meredith’s hands were small wounds showing a very slight defensive response. A small, very slight patch of colour was noticed on the “anterior inner surface of the left thigh”. Another bruise was noticed on the anterior surface, in the middle third of the right leg.

The results of the toxicological analyses revealed the absence of psychotropic drugs and a blood alcohol level of 0.43 grams per litre.

Tests of histological preparations of fragments of the organs taken during the autopsy were also performed. They revealed the presence of “pools of blood” in the lungs.

The cause of death was attributed to asphixiation and loss of blood, the former being caused by the latter.

There was nothing in the pathology which confirmed that Meredith had been raped, though we should recall that Guede’s DNA was found on the vaginal swab, though not of a spermatic nature. For Massei this was confirmation that she had been subjected to a sexual assault.


—————————————


There was argument in court as to whether Exhibit 36 was compatible with the main wound. There was no dispute amongst the experts that it could not have been responsible for the wound on the right. The knife had an overall length of 31 cms and the length of the blade from the point to the handle was 17.5 cms. The width of the blade, 4cms from the point, exceeded the width of the right hand wound. The wound on the right was more akin to a pocket knife, or perhaps a flick-knife.

I shall look at the arguments advanced by the defence as to why the knife would not be compatible in a moment, but before that there is a simple logical point as to incompatibility based on measurements.

A knife would only be incompatible if the length of the wound was greater than the length of the blade of the knife, or if the width of the wound was less than the width of the blade. Exhibit 36 was therefore a priori compatible.

On this basis I would also have to concede that a pocket or flick-knife is not a priori incompatible with the main wound, unless (though we would not know) the length of it‘s blade did not exceed 8 cms.

It should however be recalled that the width of the left side wound was also 8 cms. That is over 5 times the width of the wound on the other side of the neck. The width of the blade on Exhibit 36, 8 cms from it’s tip - and being approximately 3.5 cms wide- was over twice the width of the blade on the “pocket knife”. This fact, and the robustness of the larger weapon, particularly with regard to the observed butchering at the base of the left-sided cut, makes Exhibit 36 a far more likely candidate, in my submission, than a “pocket knife“, and that’s without taking into account Meredith’s DNA on the blade.

We can also enter into a numbers game as regards the experts (8 of them) who opined on compatibility. Massei tells us that Dr Liviero concluded “definite compatibility“, Dr Lalli and Professors Bacci and Norelli “compatibility” whilst “non- incompatibility” came from the 3 GIP experts nominated at a preliminary hearing. The latter were Professors Aprile, Cingolani and Ronchi.

As far as I am concerned “non-incompatability” is not hard to understand. It simply means compatible.

Professors Introna, Torre, and Dr Patumi, for the defence, opined that Exhibit 36 could be ruled out. Their argument was twofold. First, the length of the blade was incompatible with the depth of the wound had the knife truly been used with homicidal intent. Indeed, if it had been thrust in up to the hilt then the point would have exited on the other side of the neck. Secondly, they said that the smaller wound or the abrasions beneath the main wound, mentioned earlier, were in fact caused by the hilt of a knife striking the surface of the neck. Obviously if that were so then the main wound was not caused by Exhibit 36.

Their argument does not consider, because we do not know, what may have been the actual dynamics of the knife strike. We cannot know what was the cause of the underlying wound or the reddish area of abrasions. As to that wound it may have been the result of the knife edge being run across the surface of the skin and the abrasions may have had a different cause in the prior struggle for which there is ample evidence. Hence their argument seems very weak. 

We cannot leave the topic without considering that there may have been more than two knives involved. This possibility arises from the evidence of Professor Vinci, for the defence. He considered blood stains that were on the bed sheet in Meredith’s room. These stains very much resembled the outline of a knife, or knives, laid to rest on the bed sheet.

It was Professor Vinci’s contention that the bloody outlines (a dual outline from the same knife he said) was left by a knife with a blade 11.3 cms long, or a knife with a blade 9.6 cms long with a congruent blooded section of handle 1.7 cms long (9.6 + 1.7 = 11.3), and having a blade width of 1.3 to 1.4 cms.

Taking these measurements as read they may seem incompatible with a pocket knife (such as Sollecito had a proclivity to carry) and they certainly are as regards Exhibit 36. It follows, he argued, that one has to infer the presence of a third knife in any hypothesis and if a pocket knife and Exhibit 36 are already accounted for by Knox and Sollecito then a reasonable inference is that the third knife would have to be Guede’s. Professor Vinci’s blade is not incompatible a priori with either of the two wounds.

The problem, and without going into detail on the matter, is that Professor Vinci’s contention and measurements are somewhat speculative depending on what one thinks one sees in the stains. It is rather like reading tea leaves. One could just as well superimpose Exhibit 36 over the stains and conclude that it was responsible for them.

Massei only briefly commented about the bloody outlines on the bed sheet. He opined that the blood stains were certainly “suggestive” but insufficient to establish any clear outlines from which reliable measurements could be established. Clearly then he did not accord any reliability to Professor Vinci’s measurements.


—————————————————-


We can now turn to the issue of whether Meredith’s injuries tell us anything about whether her attacker was a “lone wolf” or not.

Massei believed that Meredith’s injuries lay at the heart of the matter. It seemed inconceivable to him that she would first be stabbed twice and that she would then be strangled. The amount of blood, being very slippery, would make maintaining pressure on her throat difficult. So Meredith was forcibly restrained and throttled first. The hypothesis of a single attacker requires that he continually modify his actions, first by exercising a strong restraining pressure on her, producing significant bruising, and then for some reason switching to life threatening actions with a knife, thereby changing the very nature of the attack from that of subjugation to that of intimidation with a deadly weapon, and finally to extreme violence, striking with the knife to one side of the neck and then to the other side of the neck.

Massei described the first knife blow, landing on the right side of her neck, as being halted by the jawbone, preventing it from going any deeper than the 4 cms penetration. The court considered that this was an action to force Meredith to submit to actions against her will. The same hypothesis could also, of course, in view of the injuries to the jaw, apply as to the lack of penetration with Exhibit 36 on the other side

What surprised Massei about Meredith’s wounds was that in spite of all the changes in approach during the attack she somehow remained in the same vulnerable position, leaving her neck exposed to attack.

Massei paid particular attention to the paucity and lack of what can be regarded as defensive wounds on her hands by comparison with the number, distribution and diversity of the impressive wounds to her face and neck. He found this disproportion to be significant, particularly with regard to what was known about Meredith’s physicality and personality.

Meredith was slim and strong, possessing a physicality that would have allowed her to move around with agility. She liked sports, and practiced boxing and karate. In fact she had a medium belt in karate. She would, had she been able to, have fought with all her strength. How then would a single attacker have been able to change hands with a knife to strike to both sides of her neck, let alone switch from one knife to another? He would have had to release his grip on the victim to do that, unless she had wriggled free and changed position, in which case he would have to subdue her all over again, but this time, if not before, she would be ready.

Since the attack was also sexual in nature, at least initially, how could a single attacker have removed the clothes she was wearing (a sweater, jeans, knickers and shoes) and inflicted the sexual violence revealed by the vaginal swab, without, again releasing his grip? It might be suggested, as the defence did, that Meredith was already undressed when the attack began, but for this to be the case one of three possible alternative hypotheses has to be accepted.

The first is that Guede was already in the flat, uninvited, and un-noticed by Meredith, which can only mean that the break -in was genuine but un-noticed by her. The second is that Guede was there by invitation and that their relationship had proceeded by agreement to the contemplation of sexual intercourse when Meredith suddenly changed her mind, unleashing a violent reaction from Guede. The third is that, having been invited in Meredith then thought that he had left, although he had not.

Having looked at the staging we can surely rule out the first hypothesis. As to the second, it does not fit with what is known about Meredith’s personality and the relationship she had been developing with Giacomo. As to the third it is difficult to imagine that in a small flat Meredith would not have checked before securing the front door and preparing for bed.

Massei found it was highly unlikely that one person could have caused all the resulting bruises and wounds by doing the above, including cutting off and bending the hooks on the bra clasp. The actions on the bra clasp alone would necessitate someone standing behind her and using a knife to cut the straps, requiring the attention of both hands from her attacker, during which time Meredith would have had the opportunity to apply some self-defence. It has to be conceded though that this could have happened when she was concussed, though there is no persuasive physical evidence of a concussive blow, or during or after she had been mortally wounded.

Massei concluded that there was little evidence of defensive manoeuvers on Meredith’s part, which to him meant that several attackers were present, each with a distribution of tasks and roles: either holding her and preventing her from making any significant defensive reaction, or actually performing the violent actions. He concluded that the rest of the body of evidence, both circumstantial and forensic, came in full support of such a scenario. He concluded that two separate knives had been used and that one was from Sollecito‘s bedsit.

Although, at the trial, the defence had attempted to explain a scenario whereby a single attacker might have been responsible for the injuries, that there had been multiple attackers was not a scenario with which any court, other than the first appeal court presided over by Hellmann, demurred.

 

Posted on 04/27/17 at 12:58 PM by James RaperClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Friday, April 21, 2017

The Suspicious Behaviour And Evidence Contradicting the Mutual Alibis Of RS And AK

Posted by James Raper





Material from some of my previous posts on TJMK was incorporated into my Justice on Trial. From Chapter 11, this is the first of several posts setting out further material.

Suspicious behaviour is not proof of guilt but it is an addition to the mix and, if there is enough of it, it can be weighty. I have already mentioned in Chapter 6 reservations as to the motive for Knox’x E-mail in view of certain things that did not make much sense.

Now we can consider what else arises from the testimony of witnesses, from what Knox and Sollecito had to say for themselves in their own words, and from the evidence concerning the phone records and computer analyses.

I have included the Court Exhibit log of calls made and received on the mobile phones for Knox and Sollecito, for the days the 1st and 2nd November 2007, in Appendix C. I did consider whether I should have done this given the telephone numbers referred to. However it is now eight years since the murder and I think it very unlikely that these numbers have not since been changed. In addition, Knox herself has had for some time, and may still have, a similar log for her mobile, covering the period from the beginning of October until a few days after Meredith’s death, on her website.

The relevant behaviour to be covered is from the day before the discovery of the murder up to the time of their arrest and we will discuss how this reflects upon their mutual alibi. As to that alibi we have in evidence Knox’s Memorial but not Sollecito’s statement to the police.

We also have the testimony of Antonio Curatolo and Marco Quintavalle.

Curatolo was a tramp who says that he saw Knox and Sollecito in the square at Piazza Grimana after 9.30 pm on the 1st November, having, as it appeared to him, an argument. They were at the end of the square from which the gates leading to the cottage could be seen.

Quintaville was the owner of a store who said that he saw Knox there at 7.45 am on the morning of the 2nd November.

Both were amongst witnesses unearthed by an enterprising local reporter, Antioco Fois, who stole a march on the police’s own investigation.

I will look more closely at their evidence in the next Chapter.

Knox and Sollecito would certainly have an alibi up until 8.40 pm on the 1st November, and later as it happens. That is because a witness, Jovana Popovic, knocked on Sollecito’s door at that time and spoke to Knox.

We need, however, to backtrack a bit. Popovic had knocked at Sollecito’s door between 5.30 and 5.45 pm. She wanted to ask Sollecito for a favour. Would he be kind enough to drive her to the train station in his Audi to collect some luggage that would arrive for her there later that night? Knox answered the door and invited her in and she spoke to Sollecito. He agreed he would do that.

Sollecito then started to play a film, Amelie, on his computer at 6.27 pm, which he says he and Knox watched. It would appear (See Chapter 30) that Knox then went out (whether with or without Sollecito is not clear) and that before returning to Sollecito’s flat, she (at 8.18 pm) received the text from Lumumba saying that she did not have to go to work that evening. She replied by text at 8.35 - “Sure. See you later. Have a good evening”.

Sollecito‘s varying versions, be it in his statements to the police, was (in the first version) that after leaving the cottage, he and Knox returned to his flat between 8.30 and 9 pm to eat, watch the movie and smoke some pot. That version then changed, of course, during his interview with the police on the 5th November, when he told them that before he got home Knox had left him to go to go and see friends at Le Chic and did not return until 1 am.

Popovic returned to Sollecito’s flat at 8.40 because she had been told that the luggage was not in fact being sent that evening. Knox, whom she described as being in a very good mood, told her that she would pass the message to Raffaele.

From this point on, of course, both Knox and Sollecito had an evening free to themselves.

At 8.42 pm Sollecito received a call from his father on his mobile. That this call was within 7 minutes of Knox’s text to Lumumba, and that there was no further activity on their mobiles until the following morning, is what had sparked the interest of the police and had resulted in Sollecito being called to the Questura on the 5th.

As mentioned Curatolo claimed to have first seen Knox and Sollecito in Piazza Grimana shortly after 9.30 pm. However that was contradicted by Knox’s trial testimony as to when she and Sollecito had eaten a meal at his flat.

From Knox’s trial testimony on the 12th June 2009 -

GCM:  Can you say what time this was?

AK:  umm, around, umm, we ate around 9.30 or 10, and then after we had eaten, and he was washing the dishes, well, as I said, I don’t look at the clock much, but it was around 10. And…he…umm…well, he was washing the dishes and, umm, the water was coming out and he was very bummed, displeased, he told me he had just had that thing repaired. He was annoyed that           it had broken again. So…umm

LG:  Yes, so you talked a bit. Then what did you do?

AK:  Then we smoked a joint together……we made love…..then we fell asleep.


The next day, on the 13th , on cross-examination by Mignini, Knox testified -

GM:  So, I wanted to know something else. At what time did the water leak?

AK:  After dinner, I don’t know what time it was.

GM:  Towards 21, 21.30?

AK:  21, that’s 9? No, it was much later than that.

GM:  A bit later? How much?

AK:  We had dinner around……10.30, so that must have happened a bit later than that. Maybe around 11 [slow voice as if thinking it out]


The alibi also now covers the prosecution’s first indication of the likely time of death at around 11 pm, but which was then moved to around 11.30 pm during the prosecution summing up at the trial.

Unfortunately Sollecito’s father himself torpedoed this dodge by telling the court that when he phoned his son at 8.42 pm Sollecito had told him that there had been a water leak while he was washing the dishes. Taking into account Knox’s testimony that they had eaten before the dish washing, this places the meal and dish washing before that call.

Sollecito told the police that at about 11 pm he had received a call from his father on his land line. Not only is that not confirmed by his father but there is no log of such a call. There were no landline calls at all for the relevant period of an alibi.

There is no log of a call to his mobile at that time either though his father had sent a text message then but which Sollecito did not receive until 6. 03 am the following morning. We know that he had received it at that time because that is the time at which it is logged in the phone records. Sollecito had just turned his phone on and clearly the phone had been off when the text message was sent.

There is no record of any phone activity for either of them from after the 8.42 pm call until, in Sollecito’s case, receipt of that text message at 6.03 am, and in Knox’s case her call to Meredith’s English phone at 12.07 pm the next day.

A word about this here because, as mentioned, Knox released her phone records on her web site. In her case it has to be said that this is not so unusual. Up until the 30th October there is no regular pattern of late or early morning phone activity.

Sollecito is different as his father was in the habit of calling at all hours just to find out what his son was doing. This is backed up by his phone records.

In the case of Knox she said that her phone had been switched off so as not to be disturbed and to save the battery.

——————————————————

We can now consider Sollecito’s computer, a “MacBook - PRO” - model Apple Laptop. This had been seized by the police on the 6th November and was then handed over to the Postal Police on the 13th November. They cloned the hard disk which is standard practice.

Massei -

“Of the 124 files (or “reports”) with “last accessed” in the referenced time period (from 18:00 on 1/11/07 to 08:00 on 2/11/07) only two were “human interaction”; the remaining 122 reports were actions carried out automatically by the Mac OS X operating system installed on the Apple MacBook PRO.

In particular the evidenced human interaction occurred at :

21:10:32 [ 9.10 pm] on the 1/11/07
and at
05:32:09 [ 5.32 am ] on the 2/11/07

Furthermore at 18:27:15 [6.27 pm]  on the 1/11/07, there was human interaction via the “VLC” application, software used to play a multimedia file for a film “Il Favolso Mondo Di Amelie.avi”, already downloaded onto Sollecito’s computer laptop via P2P (peer to peer) some days earlier.”


There is thus no record of any human interaction with Sollecito’s computer from 9.10 pm on the 1st November until 5.32 am the next morning, when music was played on the computer for half an hour.

There was computer evidence for the defence at the trial and further attempts were made to try and force an alibi from his computer later on appeal. I think it would be appropriate, and convenient, to include a discussion of all this here. 

At first Sollecito had maintained that he had been sending e-mails and surfing the web but that account was quickly demolished. However, a defence expert called Antonio D’Ambrosio did give very clear testimony at the trial. He was generous enough to acknowledge that the investigations carried out by the postal police were accurate, and well interpreted, but he said he had been able to uncover a bit more information about the computer because he was not limited by forensic protocols (and could therefore reveal information not visible to the Encase software used by the police) when he examined a copy of the cloned disk. This information was an interaction with the Apple website at 00.58 on the 2/11/07 which he did believe was a human interaction.

Unfortunately, whether there was or was not a human interaction with the computer at that time, does not provide Sollecito with an alibi.

D’Ambrosio also said that he noticed an interaction at 9.26 pm on the 1/11/07 but was unable to be certain whether a human interaction had occurred or whether a pre-requested download of a film, Naruto, had commenced.

The first defence expert report was in fact one prepared by Angelucci, in March 2008, at the request of Knox’s lawyer, Dalla Vedova. It does not appear to have been submitted in evidence but the salient point from this was that the data from both Sollecito’s Asus computer (he said he had another which was broken) and Meredith’s computer, was recovered.

Then there was the D’Ambrosio report followed at the first appeal by another report from Professor Alfredo Milani. In his book Sollecito mentions Milani as one of his professors at the college at which he was studying computer science. Milani credits D’Ambrosio with a lot of the content but his report was gratuitously offensive as regards the work of the postal police and he said that they had made “grave methodological errors” which had resulted in the concealment of information and which led him to conclude that it could not be excluded that there had been an overwriting of the time data was stored.

Firstly he spends much time outlining the Mac OS, in every release, and tells us that because the postal police used an “analogous but not identical” MacBook a tiny difference in the release number in the operating system renders their analysis unreliable. This is impossible to accept for two reasons - firstly, that the OS employed resided on the cloned disk from Sollecito’s own MacBook, but more importantly the precise OS release would not affect in any way the reading of the log files.

Secondly, he unwisely reminds us of inodes (log files). These files are regularly archived, in compressed form, and the archive is not over written. The archive is not very easy for an ordinary user to search but it is certainly not beyond the capabilities of “an expert computer consultant”.

He also unwisely provides a play list of the music which Sollecito had been playing when he opened his ITunes app: at 5.32 am in the morning.






The Report was in evidence but it is unlikely that the Court had before it an analysis of the music. The music app featured, amongst others, songs by the Seattle based punk rock band Nirvana, but more interestingly the app opens with the head banging introductory music (entitled “Stealing Fat”) to “The Fight Club” cult movie: with it’s own rendition of the iconic stabbing sound from the Hitchcock movie “Psycho” and introducing a background wailing sound. An interesting choice of music at 5.32 am in the morning and within hours of Meredith‘s brutal murder. There is clear evidence of manual interaction as some tracks are paused and then clicked through to the next.

One track on the app was not given any play time. This was “Polly” by Nirvanna based on the true story of the abduction, torture and rape of a 14 year old girl. The culprit is still serving time in jail.

Knox and Sollecito claimed that neither woke until Knox rose at 10.30 am. Not only are the two of them trapped by a blatant lie but if one’s choice of music is a reflection of mood, or to facilitate a change of mood, then their choice of music (and some of the lyrics, such as “I killed you, I’m not gonna crack”) is disturbing.

In the event the defence reports seem to have done little to impress the appeal judges. Perhaps Sollecito knew that they never would. In his prison diary on the 11th November 2007 he wrote -

“I have been very anxious and nervous in the last few days, but to see my father who tells me “do not worry, we will get you out”, makes me feel better. My real concerns are now two:  the first one derives from the fact that if that night Amanda remained with me all night long, we could have (and this is a very remote possibility) made love all evening and night only stopping to eat…. It would be a real problem because there would be no connections from my computer to servers in those hours.”


———————————————-

Knox falsely claims in her book that having had her shower at the cottage she called her mother on her way back to Sollecito’s apartment (a 5 minute journey) as she was beginning to have concerns as to what she had seen at the cottage. She writes that her mother tells her to raise her concerns with Raffaele and the other flatmates and Knox says that she then immediately called Filomena Romanelli. Romanelli tells her to get hold of Meredith by phone which she tries to do by calling Meredith’s English phone first, then her Italian one.

(a) How does this correlate to the contents of her e-mail of the 4th Nov?

(b) How does this correlate to Knox’s phone records?

(a) There is no mention of a call to her mother at all in the e-mail. This from her e-mail -

“….and I returned to Raffaele’s place. After we had used the mop to clean up the kitchen I told Raffaele about what I had seen in the house over breakfast. The strange blood in the bathroom, the door wide open, the shit in the toilet. He suggested I call one of my roommates, so I called Filomena………..
Filomena seemed really worried so I told her I’d call Meredith and then call her back. I called both of Meredith’s phones the English one first and last and the Italian one in between. The first time I called the English phone it rang and then sounded as if there was disturbance, but no one answered. I then called the Italian phone and it just kept ringing, no answer. I called the English phone again and this time an English voice told me the phone was out of service.”


(b) the phone records are as follows -

02/11/2007


Ist call @  12.07.12 (to Meredith’s English phone)  - 16 seconds

2nd call @  12.08.44 (to Romanelli)                  - 68 seconds

3rd call   @  12.11.02 (to Meredith’s Italian phone)  - 3 seconds

4th call   @  12.11.54 (to Meredith’s English phone) - 4 seconds

          (The 5th, 6th and 7th calls are by Romanelli)

8th call @  12..47.23 (first call to her mother)      - 88 seconds


© the discrepancies are as follows -

1. The accounts in the book and the e-mail differ materially but at least the phone records enable us to establish facts. The first call to her mother was not just after leaving the cottage but 40 minutes after the call to Romanelli, and the call to Romanelli had been placed (on the basis of the e-mail) after she had returned to Raffaele’s place and after they had used the mop and had breakfast. If we add on 20 minutes for that activity then we can say that she called her mother at least an hour after she had left the cottage.

2.  The first call to Meredith’s English phone (and it rang for an appreciable time - 16 seconds) was placed before the call to Romanelli, and not after as Knox would have it in her e-mail and in her book. A minute before, but Knox did not mention this to Romanelli, as confirmed by the e-mail and Romanelli’s testimony.
         
3.  The call to the Italian phone did not just keep ringing (See 5 below). The connection was for 3 seconds and this was followed by a connection to the English phone for 4 seconds.

4.  The English phone was not switched off, nor (as Knox has claimed -see email) out of service. Mrs Lana’s daughter had found it. She said that she would not have done so but for it ringing (the 12.07 call for 16 seconds?). She picked it up and took it into the house where it rang again (the 12.11 call - 4 seconds?). A name appeared on the screen as it rang : “Amanda”.

5.  The 3 and 4 second calls are highly suspicious. The Italian phone was already in the possession of the postal police. Because of it’s discovery before the English phone the postal police had been dispatched to the cottage at about midday. According to Massei it’s answering service was activated, accounting for the log. Clearly Knox did not even bother to leave a message for Meredith as it would take longer than 3 seconds just to listen to the answering service. This is not the behaviour of someone genuinely concerned about another. By contrast Romanelli had called Knox three times, spending no less than half a minute on each call, and on the last one being informed by Knox that her room had been burgled and ransacked.

Observations -

In her e-mail, and repeated in her trial testimony, Knox says that she woke up around 10.30 am, grabbed a few things and walked the 5 minutes back to the cottage. If the first call to her mother (at 12.47) was about an hour after she left the cottage (see before) then she left the cottage at about 11.47 am, which means that she spent over an hour there. Either that or she spent much more than 20 minutes at Raffaele’s place before calling Romanelli. One might think that the latter would be more likely as it is difficult to conceive that she spent over an hour at the cottage just showering and blow drying her hair, is it not? She did not (Knox’s testimony) have the heating on when she was there. If that were the case then one has to wonder why she dallied, without any concern for her flatmates, in an empty and cold cottage, the front door to which she had found open.

Either way there is a period of up to about an hour and a half between when she might have tried to contact Meredith (if she believed she was there, by knocking on or trying her bedroom door or by calling her phone) and her calling Romanelli, effectively to raise the alarm.

That we are right to be incredulous about this is borne out by the false claim in Knox‘s book. That false claim is significant and can only be because Knox is acutely aware that the phone records show that her original story does not stack up.

That it is incredible is even belatedly acknowledged by Sollecito’s feeble but revealing attempt to distance himself from Knox in a CNN interview on the 28 Feb 2014. “Certainly I asked her questions” he said. “Why did you take a shower? Why did you spend so much time there?”

That she makes that false claim and has constantly stonewalled and/or misplaced the 16 second call to Meredith’s English phone is indicative of a guilty knowledge. Her guilty knowledge with respect to the 16 second call was that it was made to ascertain whether or not the phones had been located before she called Romanelli, and hence for her it was not (incredulous though this is without such explanation) a pertinent fact for her to bring up with Romanelli. More than that though she also sidestepped the specific question put to her by Romanelli -

Massei -

“Amanda called Romanelli, to whom she started to detail what she had noticed in the house without, however, telling her a single word about the unanswered call made to Meredith despite the question expressly put to her by Romanelli.”


As to the 12.47 call to her mother (4.47 am Seattle time and prior to the discovery of Meredith‘s body) Knox not only did not mention that in her e-mail but in taped conversation with her mother and in her trial testimony she steadfastly declined to recall that it had occurred. Ostensibly the call would have been, of course, to report the break in. So what would be the problem with that? However she clearly did not want, or could not be trusted, to discuss her motive for the call and what had transpired in conversation with her mother (and stepfather) before the discovery of Meredith’s body.

Not only was the timing of the 12.47 call inconvenient to her mother but I found it interesting to note from Knox’s phone records (covering 2nd Oct - 3rd November) that mother and daughter do not appear to have called or texted each other once by phone up until that 12.47 call. It would appear then that in so far as they remained in direct communication with each other for that period it must have been by e-mail or Skype. Indeed Knox has referred to such communication being via internet café. One can therefore imagine that her mother was very surprised to receive that call. It is also very difficult to accept that Knox could not recall a phone call she was not in the habit of making.

Until Knox published her book the only information that was available about the 12.47 call (apart from the phone log which showed that it lasted 88 seconds) came from her mother (who reported that her daughter was concerned about the break in) and her stepfather Chris Mellas. Mellas says that he interrupted the conversation between mother and daughter to tell Amanda to get out of the cottage. In her book Knox tells us (her memory now having returned) that he yelled at her but that she was “spooked” enough without that. But what had really happened to spook her? Readers will already know where I am coming from, and may think I am pushing at bit hard here, but I believe that the call to her mother was both a comfort and a rehearsal call, not simply because there had been a burglary, but because she knew a set of events was about to unfold on Romanelli’s arrival at the cottage. Would her explanation about having been there earlier for a shower be credible? Would Romanelli and subsequently the police, detect anything suspicious? The fact that her mother and stepfather already had the jitters was not a good omen.

The testimony of Edda Mellas was as follows –

“Yes, in the first call she said that she knew that it was really early in the morning but she had called because she felt that someone had been in the house. She had spent the night at Raffaele’s and she had returned to take a shower at her house, and the main door was open. That had seemed strange to her, but the door had a strange lock and sometimes the door didn’t close properly, and when she entered the house everything seemed to be in place. Then she went to take the shower, and when she came out of the shower she noticed that there was a bit of blood but she thought that perhaps someone was having their period and had not cleaned up properly after themselves. She then went to her room and dressed and then went into the other bathroom to blow dry her hair and realized that someone had not flushed the toilet., and she thought it was strange because usually the girls flushed. Then she had to go to meet Raffaele, and she told him of these strange things in the house. Thern she tried to call one of the others who lived with them to find out something,, and had the number of another Italian roommate that was in the town, the others were there no longer and she tried to call Meredith several times but there was no response, They returned to the house, and she showed Raffaele what she had found and they realized that there was a broken window, Then at this point they began to knock on Meredith’s door trying to wake her up and when there was no answer they tried to enter her room.”

This is a lot of information to cram in to an 88 second phone call when surely Knox’s mother must have been feeling confused, concerned, and with questions of her own. At what point did Chris interrupt and yell at her to get out of the house? Edda’s testimony is very much a reprise of Knox’s e-mail. How could Knox not have remembered such a detail packed conversation, a prelude to her e-mail, and triggered by, on the face of it, a burglary?

Knox’s phone records also correct a previous misapprehension of mine. I had regarded it as rather unlikely that Knox would have tried to contact Meredith first on her English phone rather than the Italian phone which she knew Meredith had and used for local calls. However the records show that it was not at all unusual for Knox to call Meredith’s English phone. In fact she did this most of the time. But also, if the purpose of the first call to Meredith (after midday on the 2nd) was to check as to whether or not the phones had been located by anyone, then calling Meredith’s English, rather than her Italian, phone would make sense, because of course Knox would know that was the phone by which Meredith and her parents remained in frequent contact with each other, and that the parents would surely have raised the alarm had the phone been discovered and a call by Meredith’s parents been answered by some diligent but confused citizen in Italian. This, of course, could have happened and the alarm could have been raised by Meredith’s parents well prior to Meredith’s phone being called by Knox the first time, but such an eventuality would not have been a matter of concern to Knox in the event that she had not been to the cottage earlier.

At the cottage, and prior to the above call, Sollecito received a call from his father at 12.40 am. Do we know what they discussed? It would in any event have been after the discovery of Romanelli’s broken window and (allegedly) Sollecito’s (rather feeble) attempt to break down Meredith’s door. Did the responsible adult advise his son to do the obvious and call the police? One would think so, but then why was there a 10 minute delay before he called his sister in the Carabinieri at 12.50 am? Indeed, why call his sister at all? Why substitute the formality of calling the police to report a break in with a personal call? They are not the same thing - clearly, as immediately afterwards he did call the 112 emergency services to report the break in. Romanelli had also urged Knox to call the police when she called at 12.35.The 16 minute delay from that call might be accounted for by the unexpected arrival of the postal police and if this was the case then it was before Sollecito called the 112 emergency services.

The issue of whether Sollecito was lying when he told the postal police that he had already called 112 is an interesting one. It would take up too much time and space to discuss in detail here. See Chapter 13. Suffice to say that the prosecution set out to demonstrate that the postal police had arrived before the call and the defence set out to demonstrate the contrary.

Neither Knox nor Sollecito saw into Meredith’s room when the door was broken down and her body discovered on the floor under a quilt. Yet in the immediate aftermath it is as if they have wanted others to believe that it was they who discovered her body and in the bragging about this there have been disclosures, not only as to what they should not have been aware but also suggestive of disturbed personalities. This behaviour was remarkable for all the wrong reasons.

(a)  The police were suspicious about the fact that Knox had alluded to Meredith having had her throat cut at the Questura, but we now know from Luca Altieri‘s testimony that Knox and Sollecito had heard about this directly from him during the car ride to the police station.. However her bizarre and grotesque allusion in the early moments of the investigation to the body being found stuffed into the closet (wardrobe) is not just factually incorrect (it was lying to the side of the closet) but bears a striking correlation to later forensic findings based on blood splatter in front of and on the closet door, that Meredith had been thrust up against the closet after having been stabbed in the throat.

(b)  The behaviour of Knox and Sollecito at the police station is documented in the testimony of Meredith’s English girlfriends and of the police. Whilst it is true that people react to grief in different ways it is difficult to ascribe grief or a reaction to shock to some of Knox’s behaviour. Emotionally she was cold towards Meredith’s friends and occasionally went out of her way to upset them with barbed and callous remarks. The fact that Knox was not observed to cry and wanted to talk about what had happened is not of itself indicative of anything but remarks like “What the fuck do you think, she bled to death” (Knox acknowledged a similar comment to this in her tv interview with Diane Sawyer - See Chapter 27) and her kissing and canoodling with Raffaele (including them making smacking noises with their lips when they blew kisses to each other) in front of the others was not normal. Rather chilling in retrospect was a scene between the pair of them when Knox found the word “minaccia” (in english - threat) amusing and made a play of it with Sollecito in front of witnesses.

© Grief is in any event reserved for friends and relations, or people one much admires. The evidence is that the initial short friendship between the two had cooled to the extent that Meredith was studiously, if politely, avoiding being around Knox. For the narcissistic and attention seeking american girl this would have been difficult to ignore and may well have offended her.

(d)  The next day Sollecito was willingly collared by a reporter from the Sunday Mirror and told her about the horror of finding the body.

“Yes I knew her. I found her body.”

“It is something I never hope to see again,” he said. “There was blood everywhere and I couldn’t take it all in.”

“My girlfriend was her flatmate and she was crying and screaming, ‘How could anyone do this?’”

Sollecito went on the tell the reporter (with reference to the night of the murder) that -

“It was a normal night. Meredith had gone out with one of her English friends and Amanda and I went to a party with one of my friends. The next day, around lunchtime, Amanda went back to their apartment to have a shower.”


This was not in evidence which is as well because about the only thing that is true here is that he knew Meredith.

Posted on 04/21/17 at 12:09 AM by James RaperClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
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Monday, April 10, 2017

Interrogation Hoax: How The American Psychology Law Society Was Lied To By Kassin & Knox

Posted by Ergon



Knox and Kassin at the American Psychology Law Society Conference 2017

1. Post Overview

Serial misrepresenter of the Knox “interrogation” Saul Kassin has made yet another false claim, once again to a large audience.

This time it was to the American Psychology Law Society Conference in Seattle, Washington, March 16th-18th, and it suggests he simply cannot count.

2. Kassin Already Shown A Fraud

SIX prior posts correct numerous Kassin “mistakes”.

1. Claims Amanda Knox’s Confessions Resemble “False Confessions” Not Backed Up By Any Criminal Research

2. Saul Kassin: An Example Of How The Knox Campaign Is Misleading American Experts And Audiences

3. Correcting Saul Kassin’s Massively Inaccurate Description Of Amanda Knox’s So-Called Confession

4. Questions For Knox: Do You Really Think “False Memories” Claim Framing Italians Yet Again Will Help?

5. On Saul Kassin: Our Letter To Dr Douglas Starr Who Wrote An Effusive Profile In The “New Yorker”

6. How Saul Kassin Framed Many Fine Italian Justice Officials - And Then Played Victim When Corrected

3. Interrogation Already Shown A Hoax

EIGHTEEN prior posts on the Knox interrogation hoax describe what actually took place.

It is very important to understand that as the defenses conceded in court under the strict Italian legal definition of “interrogation” Knox was really only ever interrogated twice.

Both times this was by Dr Mignini (Dec 2007 and June 2009) and both times it was at Knox’s own request.

All of her other discussions with investigators early in November 2007 were merely “verbale di sommarie informazioni” or written-up discussion with a person with possible useful information. Notes exist in the record of all these discussions - none remotely coercive - and they were summarised by prosecution witnesses at trial.

See my quote below of the defense lawyers in Italian, where they use the correct Italian legal term. These written-up discussions with Knox carry precisely the same status as the “verbale di sommarie informazioni” with Sophie Purton and numerous others in the records of the case.

Accordingly I use “interrogation” a couple of times in quotes below in rebutting Kassin’s wrong claims.

4. The 45-50-55 Hours Hoax

Quoting Amanda Knox and Saul Kassin at the American Psychology Law Society Conference in Seattle in March 2017:

Kassin: “Knox was questioned for over 50 hours but none was recorded”.

Kassin: “I’ve never seen a case more steeped in misinformation than Amanda Knox’s”.

So, where did the magical 50 hourrs interrogation in 5 days that ‘inevitably lead to false confessions’ first appear?

Professor Kassin will not say, or provide background information to the crowded rooms of trainee law psychologists to which he and Amanda Knox have been repeating this claim.

So, here’s some vital background Kassin seems to have missed which spirals in to the truth.


1. Injustice in Perugia

Steve Moore: “In the five days after the murder of Meredith Kercher, Amanda Knox was interrogated by detectives for 43 hours.


2. CBS News-48 Hrs

Amanda’s focus was the appeal - and she soon had a world-renown ally.

“This case horrifies me. I’d like to say it shocks me. But I’ve seen others like it,” said psychologist and professor Saul Kassin, an expert on police interrogations.

On his own initiative, Kassin filed a report with the Italian (appeals) court on Amanda’s behalf. It outlines some of the psychological reasons why Amanda could have confessed to a murder she did not commit.

“Amanda Knox, like everybody, has a breaking point. She reached her breaking point,” he explained. “Eight or 10 or 12 police officials in a tag team-manner come in and interrogate her… Their goal is a confession and they’re not leaving that room without it.

Er no, there’s no record of any report by Kassin in the Hellmann court files, and Amanda Knox never released one either.

But regardless, Judge Hellmann ruled Knox should have known Patrick Lumumba was innocent and upheld her 3 year conviction for criminal defamation (calunnia) anyway.


3. American Psychologist/Innocence Project

From “Why Confessions Trump Innocence” by Saul M. Kassin, John Jay College of Criminal Justice, City University of New York, April 2012

Armed with a prejudgment of Knox’s guilt, several police officials interrogated the girl on and off for four days. Her final interrogation started on November 5 at 10 p.m. and lasted until November 6 at 6 a.m., during which time she was alone, without an attorney, tag-teamed by a dozen police, and did not break for food or sleep.


4. CNN Transcripts

CNN May 8, 2011

CURT KNOX, FATHER: Between the time that they actually found Meredith and when Amanda was arrested, there was roughly a 90-hour timeframe. And I’m ball parking the numbers there. During that time, Amanda was in the police station for questioning for—I believe it was 52 hours.

Now we’re getting a little closer to the truth. Knox was possibly at the police station for maybe 52 hours. But actually she wasn’t ‘interrogated’ for that long.

Then going back to when those figures first came out:


5. King 5 News

Amanda Knox’s family says confession coerced

By LINDA BYRON / KING 5 News

Posted on November 13, 2009 at 12:16 PM

She was just flat scared to be alone,” Curt said. “So she went down to the police station with him and they were split into two rooms and then they started going at them.

With physical and mental abuse for 14 hours. No food, water, no official interpreter.

Prosecutors say Amanda’s accounts swung wildly: She wasn’t at the cottage the night of the murder. She was there, but drunk in another room.

But her parents say she was coerced by police.

“(They said) you know, you’re never going to see your family again,” Curt said. “You’re going to jail for 30 years. You need to come up with something for us, you’re a liar. Come up with something for us. Envision something; throw something out there.”


6. Della Vedova/Ghirga appeal to Hellmann

There’s a summary of a defense analysis of the discussions here - note the “verbale di sommarie informazioni” which is NOT the Italian for “interrogation”.

(p.12) Amanda Knox è stata sottoposta ad esame ed attività investigative e tra il 2 e il 6 novembre 2007, fino al momento del fermo, ha fornito sommarie informazioni e risposto a domande della A.G. come segue:

2 novembre 2007, ore 15.30 VENERDI’: totale ore …………..12,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, senza indicazione della chiusura.
Testimoni fino alle 3.00 am del 3 novembre 2007

3 novembre 2007, ore 14.45 SABATO totale ore ………………8,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, senza indicazione della chiusura.
Testimoni indicano fino alle 22,00.

4 novembre 2007, ore 14.45 DOMENICA: totale ore ………….12,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, ed accesso alla villetta di Via
della Pergola dalle ore 14.45 alle ore 21. Telefonata di Amanda alla zia dice 5 ore
di interrogatorio in questura

5/6 novembre 2007, ore 01.45 LUNEDI’/MARTEDI’: totale ore …….5,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox inizio alle ore 22.00 del 5
novembre 2009.

6 novembre 2007, ore 05.45 MARTEDI’: totale ore ……………….3,45
Verbale di “spontanee dichiarazioni” della Knox con successivo breve
memoriale. Dalle ore 1,45 alle 5,45 e memoriale alle ore 14,00.

In 5 giorni la Knox è stata sentita per un totale di circa 53,45 h.

Except, here above I count a total of 40.45 hrs, hmm, not all of which was spent being “interrogated”.

She was in the waiting room with the others, as confirmed by her own phone records, e-mails home, texts, etc. Not to forget headstands, cartwheels, yoga poses and general faffing around with Sollecito.

The defense realized their math was off so they included an additional 13.0 hrs. to the time of her memoriale though they counted their own figures twice, Lol. 

Keep in mind her attorneys never argued the time was unreasonable, only that the accusation should not be considered for the calunnia charge.

Their summary was only to show how long she had been ‘present for examination’ in that time she was at the Questura till her arrest. And even then, their figures were wrong..


7. From Rita Ficarra’s Testimony

Knox was let go by the evening of the first day so the 12 hours interrogation figure is incorrect. She also had an official interpreter by 12:30, was fed and allowed to rest in between, wasn’t slapped, and there were only two detectives present.


8. Case follower Soletrader4U analyzed her phone records and case files and came up with a more realistic figure of 17.45 hrs of actual “interrogation”.

5. My Conclusions

It looks like Kassin is still spinning his hoaxes. I invite Professor Kassin to correct his figures and explain how, according to his research, Amanda Knox could have produced a “False Confession” over the span of 17.45 hours of “interrogation” over 5 days?

[Everything in this post applies equally to the ludicrously inaccurate claims of ex FBI “mindhunter” John Douglas in his books and lobbying at the State Department.]



Thursday, March 30, 2017

Italian Police Again Work Hard On A Murder Where Victim And Main Suspect (Her Husband) Are Foreign

Posted by Peter Quennell



This case is getting a lot of coverage in Italy, Ireland and the UK.

Mrs Belling and her family boarded a cruise ship February 9 at the cruise port west of Rome, and seem to have been in Italy itself for only a few hours. Several days later, after a scene with her husband, she disappeared off the ship.

This wasn’t reported, and the family continued their meals in the dining room.

Then the German-born husband was arrested before he could return to Ireland. He remains locked up in Rome and can be held for a year to check if there is a case against him. 

Now a body in a suitcase has washed up. A “suitcase murder” in her case now seems to be ruled out though as Barbie Nadeau explains.

The short-lived label “suitcase murder” notion has resonated in the New York area. The reason being that an attractive and successful local woman, Melanie McGuire, who had her share of fans during trial, was found guilty of chopping up her husband, essentially for being a bore, and stuffing his remains in suitcases.

They then washed up in Chesapeake Bay about 1/2 a day south. She was found guilty and despite a strenuous defense and an appeal she is inside for life without parole. There are a number of long-form reports on YouTube, and this is perhaps the most-watched.

Posted on 03/30/17 at 11:48 PM by Peter QuennellClick here for my past posts, via link at top left.
Archived in Justice systemsItalian systemThose officially involvedPolice and CSIOther legal processesItalian unrelated
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