Updating Our Scenarios And Timelines #2: An Integrated Comparison Of The Timing of the Phone-Events
Posted by Cardiol MD
1. Point of our series
TMJK’s core focus has long been upon “What happened at 7 Via della Pergola, in Perugia, on the night of November 1-2, 2007?”
Over the last 4+ years, more than 20 TJMK posts, with more than 400 comments, have addressed the subject of possible scenarios and timelines for those events. They represent a lot of thought and many are worth reading if you haven’t come across them before.
This post is the scond in a series that will reappraise the more probable speculations, using the current state of our information. The first post was four weeks ago.
Reader comments in response to Part 1 amply reflect readers’ interest in exploring the various ‘open Questions’ referred-to, and how efforts to make Knox and Sollecito confront the true answers are obfuscated by their falsehoods.
The Truth of the actions of Knox and Sollecito on November 1st & 2nd, 2007, is so precious to them that they attend that Truth with a ‘Bodyguard of Lies’, to borrow Winston Churchill’s famous WW11 dictum. They even further obfuscate the answers to our questions by selectively employing a Bodyguard of Actual Truths.
The aim of their broken drain-pipe under the sink story (see previous post) was to persuade investigators, and everyone else:
1. That there was a broken drain-pipe under the sink (Massei Translation p.67), and
2. That the alleged water-leak occurred BEFORE the murder.
Their obfuscations include:
1. The omission of references to incriminating truths, e.g. omission of references to the hammer-toe on RS’s right-foot, one of his most incriminating physical attributes (see representative image of a right-foot hammer-toe below), and
2. The inclusion of “Half” truths, and
3. The inclusion of references to non-incriminating truths.
2. Integrated timing of phone events
This post is an integrated comparison of the timing of the phone-events byy coordinated universal time, merging Massei’s sections on Amanda Knox [AKP], and Meredith Kercher [MKP], as well as that of Rafaelle Sollecito [RSP].
[For the day of 31.10.07 it was shown that Meredith’s mobile phone with service provider Vodafone 348-4673711 sent an SMS at 18:27:50 hours using the cell at Piazza Lupattelli sector 7. (this signal is received in Via della Pergola 7.)
The same number received an SMS at 18:29:05 hours (this exchange of messages took place with the number 388-8921724) connecting to the same cell.
[RSP]: − on 31.10.07 Raffaele received *a call+ from the father’s fixed line (No. 080-3958602) at 22:14 for 44 seconds.
With respect to Sollecito’s mobile phone 340-3574303, attention was paid to the entire day of 1.11.07 with the following results]
Which help establish a less-suspicious baseline for comparison with later, more-suspicious results.
[RSP]− 00:00:39 an outgoing call, just after midnight
The phone traffic with regard to the day of 1.11.07 was reconstructed in the following terms (cfr. statement of Assistant Stefano Sisani at the hearing of 20.3.09).
AKP− 00:41:49 hours: outgoing phone call of 20 seconds, to a number whose holder was not identified
RSP− on 1.11.07 *he+ called the father’s house at 00:02:41 for 262 seconds
AKP− 00:57:20: Amanda’s mobile phone sent an SMS, using the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 (which does not provide coverage to Sollecito’s house, since it pertains to Via Ulisse Rocchi, Piazza Cavallotti, etc. and therefore at the heart of Perugia’s historic center). This consisted of the SMS which the young woman exchanged with Raffaele at the end of the Halloween evening to arrange meeting up with her boyfriend and be accompanied home
RSP− 00:57 an incoming SMS 319
AKP− 1:04:58: Amanda’s mobile phone received *a call+ for 53 seconds from the number 075/9660789, located in Piazza Danti 26
RSP− 14:25 an incoming call which lasted 58 seconds
RSP− 16:50 an incoming call, coming from the mobile phone of the father, lasting 214 sec.
RSP− 16:56 another call from the father (64 sec.)
AKP− 20:18:12: Amanda receives the SMS sent to her by Patrick Lumumba, which let her off from having to go to work at the ‚Le Chic‛ pub on the evening of 1 November. At the time of reception the phone connected to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, whose signal does not reach Raffaele Sollecito’s house. The young woman was therefore far [i.e. absent] from Corso Garibaldi 30 when the SMS reached her, as she was walking in an area which was shown to be served by the Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 cell. This point of her route could correspond to Via U. Rocchi, to Piazza Cavallotti, to Piazza IV Novembre, bearing in mind that Lumumba’s pub is located in Via Alessi, and that Amanda Knox would have had to travel along the above-mentioned roads and the piazza in order to reach the pub
AKP− 20.35.48 Amanda sent an SMS in reply to Patrick, at No. 338-7195723; the message was sent when the young woman’s mobile phone was in Corso Garibaldi 30 or in the immediate neighbourhood. The cell used, in fact, was that of Via Berardi sector 7 − no other [use] was shown for the
day of 1.11.07, noting that Amanda declared during hearings that she had switched her mobile phone off once she had returned 323 to Raffaele’s house, since she was more than happy she did not have to go to work and could spend the evening with her boyfriend.]
Knox may also have been LESS than happy that Lumumba preferred Meredith instead of Knox as an employee. This was humiliating-enough to Knox for Knox to decide that the time to cut Meredith down-to-size was now.
[RSP− 20:42:56 call from the father (221 seconds: this is the conversation which Dr. F. Sollecito referred to, made at the end of the film he had just seen in the cinema, which the father recommended to the son, at which point [it is said that] Raffaele informed his father of a problem with a broken drain-pipe under the sink in the kitchen”. ]
Massei Translation page 25: On “the evening of November 1, 2007 at around 10:00 pm, someone called and warned Elisabetta Lana not to use the toilet of her dwelling because it contained a bomb which could explode. Mrs. Lana immediately notified the police of this phone call; and they came to the house but did not find anything. Mrs. Lana and her husband were nonetheless asked to go to the Postal Police the next day to report said telephone call.”
MKP – 20:56 hours on 1 November 07, attempted call to Meredith’s mother’s home in England.
MKP – 21:58 hours on 1 November 07, attempted call to mobile phone’s answering service, voicemail ‘901’.
MKP – 22:00 hours on 1 November 07, dial to Meredith’s London bank ‘ABBEY’.
MKP – 22:13:29 hours (9 seconds) on 1 November 07, attempted internet connection. Connection consistent with being attempted from cottage, but inconsistent with being attempted from Mrs.Lana’s.]
Massei Translation, page 331, attributes the above 4 dialings to Meredith absent-mindedly playing with the mobile phone in her hand, and her phone may well have still been in her hand when her attackers surprised her.
Question: Was Meredith’s Phone still in the cottage at Via della Pergola at 22:13:29 hours on 1 November 07? Yes.
At about 22:30 hours Car broken-down nearby. Tow-Truck called-for.
At about 23:00 hours Tow-Truck arrives to load car.
At about 23:13 hours Tow-Truck leaves with loaded car.
[RSP- 23:41:11 RS’s father attempts phone-call but makes no oral contact. Father leaves message which is not received until 06:02:59 on 2.11.07.]
This 23:41:11 call was attempted during the very time-frame of the attack on Meredith, her murder, and the flight of her killers with her mobile telephones. Meredith’s Phone[s] were removed from her cottage by about Midnight, less than 20 minutes after this attempted call.
With regard to the day of 2.11.07:
[for 2.11.07 the first record is that of MKP - 0:10: 31, “when it has been established as an incontrovertible fact that Meredith’s English mobile phone was no longer in Via della Pergola, the mobile phone having received the contact under the coverage from Wind signal [cell] ..25622, which is incompatible with the cottage.”]
Question: Was Meredith’s Phone still in the cottage at Via della Pergola at 00:10: 31, 2.11.07? No!
Therefore Meredith’s English mobile phone had been removed from her cottage between 10.13.39 p.m. on 1.11.07 (more likely 11.13 p.m. when tow-truck departed) and 0:10:31 on 2:11:07; about 10 ½ minutes after midnight – say Meredith’s Phone[s] Removed By About Midnight, allowing for the time-elapse before being dumped near Mrs. Lana’s place. (Hellmann obfuscated this time-span on page 14 of his report, implying it to be more than 10 hours after midnight rather than about 10 ½ minutes after midnight.)
At some time before Meredith’s attackers fled, they had seized her mobile telephones, probably near the beginning of the attack, having started their attack with a pre-emptive strike to intimidate Meredith, remove all hope, surround her, display knives, seal all possible escape-routes, and remove any possibility of phone-calling for help.
Immediately after Meredith’s scream her attackers had silenced her with the fatal stabbing, and then fled immediately.
They fled with her already-seized but still switched-on mobile telephones, probably without locking anything, including Meredith’s door.
Their over-riding and 1st imperative was not-to-be-caught-at-the-crime-scene.
Just seeing police could panic the killers into instant dumping of the telephones, without even needing to know why the police were where the police were (There is no need to invoke any awareness by the phone-dumper[s] of the reason the Police were near Mrs. Lana’s place - the hoax-call.). So if the killers saw flashing police-lights, or any other sign of police near Mrs. Lana’s place, that sign could be enough to explain panic phone-dumping - then and there (not considering whether the phones were switched-on or switched-off).
In “Darkness Descending” page 13, it states:
Mrs. Lana’s backyard overlooks a steep slope that falls sharply into the valley below. It is heavily overgrown with trees and bushes, an ideal place to dispose of evidence. If the phones had fallen just a few yards further, they would certainly have gone over the edge of the cliff, down into a 50m gully, straight into a thick scrub of nettles, and probably been lost forever….
In “Death in Perugia” Follain states (Book page 62; Kindle Locations 343-6), apparently as his opinion re Lana’s daughter finding Meredith’s English phone: “It was hidden in some bushes, and she would never have found it if it hadn’t started ringing.”,
Having accomplished this 2nd imperative, Meredith’s killers paused to attend to their 3rd imperative: re-model the crime-scene, minimising the evidences of their identities, cleaning-up the evidences that it was ‘an inside job’, and simulating the appearances that it was ‘an outside job’.
One should bear in mind that these killers should have still been overwhelmed by their having actually committed a crime beyond their wildest imaginings.
Their panic impaired their thinking, and their ignorance, immaturity, inexperience, lack of technical resources and their arrogance precluded their selecting deceptions more effective against knowledgeable, experienced professional crime-investigators with a large fund of resources. They probably think that throwing the stone from inside Filomena’s room was a brilliant deception.
They wish it had never happened.
They wish they could make it unhappen (Hellmann/Zanetti got close to fulfilling this wish, but got themselves unhappened by Cassation)
They wish they could prevent the discovery of Meredith’s murder.
They cannot prevent the discovery of Meredith’s murder.
They may be able to postpone its discovery, but not longer than the inevitable return of the cottage-mates, later that day.
They believe that the person who ‘discovers’ a murder may become 1st-suspect.
They may be able to manouevre others-than-themselves into being the ones that make the discovery – quite a wily aim.
It is beyond reasonable doubt that
1. Meredith’s killers seized her mobile telephones, and that
2. Her killers did not switch-off these mobile telephones, and that.
3. Her killers threw the telephones into an apparent ravine, landing in Mrs.Lana’s garden, and that
4. This phone-dump was accomplished before 00:10: 31, 2.11.07, and that
5. Amanda Knox caused:
- i. the English phone to ring at 12:07:12 (16 seconds) and be discovered by Mrs.Lana’s daughter only because it rang , and
ii. the other phone, registered to Filomena Romanelli, to ring, very briefly, at 12:11:02 (3 seconds) and,
iii. the English phone to ring again, also very briefly, at 12:11:54 (4 seconds), after being brought into Mrs.Lana’s house.
6. Sollecito had more than 5 days, from about 11.30 pm on November 1st, 2007 until November 6, 2007, to remove from the killing-knife the traces of Meredith’s DNA.
In the opinion of the Court of Assizes (Massei Translation p.325), Amanda Knox’s call to Meredith’s phone was
...the first indispensible step before putting the  planned staging into action. The lack of a reply, since the poor girl was obviously already dead, gave a reason for reassurance about the fact that the young woman’s phone had not somehow been retrieved, [and] was therefore safe in the spot where it had been thrown, which, according to the expectations [in the minds] of the murderers was a precipice or some other inaccessible spot, rather than in the garden of a villa located barely outside the city, where the vegetation concealed it from view.
A plausible alternative opinion is that Knox’s calls to the obviously already dead Meredith were an obfuscatory stab to simulate what Knox imagined an innocent person would do.
Knox may well have expected that she was safe from phone-discovery, but these calls turned out to be the very instrument of a phone-discovery.
Had Knox not made these obfuscatory stabs, in the time-frame she made them Meredith’s phone would not have rung when it did ring and would therefore not have been discovered by Mrs, Lana’s daughter when she did discover it.
For the day of 2.11.07, when Meredith was already dead, the traffic registered for the Vodafone number was shown to be the following:
[MKS – 00:10:31; duration and caller unspecified, but Wind signal [cell] incompatible with cottage, but compatible with Mrs. Lana’s place.
Therefore, Meredith’s mobile cell-phone had already been taken away from the cottage by her killers. It is not possible to determine from this phone-record whether the phone was switched on or off, but this phone was discovered at Mrs. Lana’s place because it was ringing, and therefore was “on”.
MKS− 12:11:02 (duration of 3 seconds): Amanda’s phone call reached the phone and was diverted to the answering service. The Vodafone cell used by Meredith’s service provider was situated in Strada Vicinale S. Maria della Collina sector 1.
AKP− 12:11:54 (4 seconds): another call is made towards Meredith’s English mobile phone number (the cell used is the one in Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, thus compatible with Sollecito’s house)
RSP− 06:02:59 Raffaele Sollecito received the SMS from his father wishing
Raffaelle a good night; from the evidence of the mobile phone record printouts of Dr. Francesco Sollecito, it was shown that the sending of the message occurred at, as has been said, 23:41:11 of 1.11.07. This was the last SMS sent from that mobile phone during the whole day of 1.11.07]
3+ Hours after receiving his father’s message from 23:41:11 of 1.11.07:
[RSP− 09:24 Raffaele Sollecito received a phone call from his father lasting 248 seconds]
At this time RS’s consiousness would be dominated by his guilty knowledge, and probably far-advanced in the accomplishment of the 3rd imperative.
Did RS and father spend 4+ minutes discussing the weather?
This is the first father/son opportunity to formulate the two-pronged water-leak story.
Although AK had already been to the hardware store 2 hours before, they may well not have known the potential DNA problems with the knife, the need to scrub it vigorously, to clean-out, and repair the drain-pipes under the sink, and the need to return the knife to RS’s kitchen drawer.
As it turned-out, Sollecito had more than 5 days, from about 11.30 pm on November 1st, 2007 until November 6, 2007, to remove from the killing-knife the traces of Meredith’s DNA.
They probably did not know that incriminating stains could be invisible, but can be revealed byLuminol.
RSP− 09:29 another call was received lasting 38 seconds
RSP− 09:30 (duration unspecified?) the father called Raffaele; the call connected to the Vial Belardi sector 7 cell.(the best server cell for Corso Garibaldi 30).]
These two calls were probably spent dotting ‘i’s, crossing ‘t’s, and exchanging options, such as enlisting sister Vanessa’s skills and contacts.
Another 2+ Hours later:
[AKP− 12:07:12 (duration of 16 seconds) Amanda calls the English phone number 00447841131571 belonging to Meredith Kercher. The mobile phone connects to the cell at  Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 9 (the signal from this cell is picked up at Sollecito’s house)
AKP− 12.08.44 (lasted 68 seconds) Amanda calls Romanelli Filomena on number 347-1073006; the mobile phone connects to the Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 cell (which covers Sollecito’s house)
Discovery will be inevitable when Filomena eventuallyarrives-back at the cottage.
AK/RS have accepted that they have to ‘stand-pat’ with their efforts so-far to accomplish their 3rd imperative.
Amanda did not say a word in this phone-call to Filomena about Amanda’s phone call to Meredith, thereby withholding information that should have led Amanda to initiate discovery of Meredith’s body, and help Amanda to manouevre someone other than Amanda into being the one who ‘discovers’ Meredith’s body.
AKP− 12:11:02 (3 seconds) the Vodafone number 348-4673711 belonging to Meredith (this is the one [i.e. SIM card] registered to Romanelli Filomena) is called and its answering service is activated (cell used: Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector3)
MKS: For the day of 2.11.07, when Meredith was already dead, the traffic registered for the Vodafone number was shown to be the following:
− 12:11:02 (duration of 3 seconds): Amanda’s phone call reached the phone and was diverted to the answering service. The Vodafone cell used by Meredith’s service provider was situated in Strada Vicinale S. Maria della Collina sector 1.
AKP− 12:11:54 (4 seconds): another call is made towards Meredith’s English mobile phone number (the cell used is the one in Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3, thus compatible with Sollecito’s house)
AKP− 12:12:35 (lasting 36 seconds) Romanelli Filomena calls Amanda Knox (No. 348-4673590); Amanda receives the call connecting to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 3 (still at Raffaele’s house)
AKP− 12:20:44 (lasting 65 seconds) Romanelli F. calls Amanda, who receives the call connecting to the cell in Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 9 (good for Corso Garibaldi 30)
AKP− 12:34:56 (48 seconds): Filomena calls Amanda who receives it from the cottage on Via della Pergola 7 (the cell used is that on Piazza Lupattelli sector 7. As mentioned, Raffaele also used the same cell when he called the service centre at 12:35 hours to recharge [the credit of] his mobile phone)
RSP− 12:35: Raffaele’s mobile phone contacted a service centre for a phone [credit] recharge (the cell used was that of Piazza Lupattelli sector 7, which gives coverage to the little house on Via della Pergola 7. The signal in question does not reach Corso Garibaldi 30, which instead is served by the signal from Piazza Lupattelli sector 8)
RSP− 12:38: Vodafone sent a message of confirmation of phone [credit] recharge (Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell, good for Via della Pergola 7)
RSP− 12:40: incoming call from the father’s mobile phone (lasting 67 seconds; connection through Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell, compatible with the Sollecito’s presence near the little house)]
Do RS and father exchange caveats?
[AKP− 12:47:23 (duration of 88 seconds): Amanda calls the American (USA) number 00120069326457, using the cell on Piazza Lupatetlli sector 7; the phone call takes place prior to the one which, at 12.51.40, Raffaele Sollecito will make to ‚112‛, connecting to the cell on Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 1, which gives coverage to Via della Pergola 7]
In “Waiting To Be Heard” Knox can hardly deny having made this 1st call, acknowledges making the call, and purports, now, to recall its substance, providing the reader with her version of what was said.
[AKP− 13:24:18 (duration of 162 seconds): Amanda calls the same American number which corresponds to the home of her mother, Mrs Edda Mellas, using the same cell. It is obvious that the young woman is inside the cottage, where by this point, several minutes earlier, the Postal Police had shown up,  represented by Inspector Battistelli and Assistant Marzi, who were engaged in the task of tracking down Filomena Romanelli, who was the owner of the Vodafone phonecard contained in the mobile phone found earlier in the garden of the villa on Via Sperandio]
In “Waiting To Be Heard” Knox can hardly deny having made this 2nd call either, she acknowledges making the call, and provides the reader with her current version of what was said.
[RSP− 12:50:34 outgoing call directed at mobile phone 347-1323774 belonging to Vanessa Sollecito, sister of the defendant; duration 39 seconds. Connection to Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell 320
RSP− 12:51:40 Raffaele Sollecito called ‚112‛ to inform the Carabinieri of the presumed theft in Romanelli’s room (duration 169 seconds; connection to Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 1 cell, which covers Via della Pergola 7)
RSP− 12:54: a second call by Raffaele to ‚112‛ (57 sec.; connection to Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell)
MKS− 13:17:10 (lasting 1 second): the cell used was located in the same place, sector 7
AKP− 13:27:32 (duration of 26 seconds): Amanda calls the American number 0012069319350, still using the cell at Piazza Lupattelli sector 7.
AKP− 13:29:00 (duration of 296 seconds) Amanda receives [a call] from No. 075/54247561 (Piazza Lupattelli sector 7 cell)
RSP− 13:40:12: incoming call from the father (94 sec.; Via dell’Aquila 5-Torre dell’Acquedotto sector 1 cell)]
AKP− ?13:48:33 (1 second): this is an attempted call to her mother’s number
– see below at 13:58:33
AKP− 13:58:33 (1 second): this is an attempted call to her mother’s number
The above item is a faithful translation from the Massei Motivazione section on Amanda Knox’s mobile phone traffic, but is listed out-of-time-sequence; the assigned-time is probably a ‘typo’ – “13:48:33” is much more likely correct.
[RSP− 14:33: the father called for 21 seconds (as above)]
Do RS and father exchange more caveats?
[AKP− 14:46:14 (102 seconds) Amanda receives a call from the German number 494154794034, most likely belonging to her aunt Doroty Craft
MKS− 15:13:43 (5 seconds) cell not indicated.
AKP− 15:31:51 (1 second): Amanda receives an SMS sent from the number 389/1531078; at this point the cell being used is the one on Via Cappuccinelli 5/A sector 2, where the Questura [police headquarters] is located
In the hours that followed the [mobile phone record] printouts show that the answering service of Amanda’s number 348-4673590 was activated due to a lack of signal coverage.]
Massei Translation p.324:
Finally, the analyses of the [phone record] printouts highlight that the first phone call made by Amanda on the day of 2 November was to Meredith Kercher’s English number.
The American student called her English flatmate even before contacting Romanelli Filomena to whom she intended to express, as she testified in court, her fears about the strange things she had seen in the cottage, which she had returned to at about 11 o’clock in order to shower in preparation for the excursion to Gubbio which she and Raffaele had planned.
It is strange that Amanda did not say a word to Filomena about the phone call to their flatmate, when the call, not having been answered, would normally have caused anxiety and posed some questions as to why Meredith did not answer the phone at such an advanced hour of the day.
[RSP− 17:01: the father called for 164 seconds; cell used is that of Via Cappucinelli 5/A sector 2, corresponding to the location of the Perugia Police Station
RSP− 17:42: the father called for 97 seconds (as above).
With regard to Raffaele Sollecito’s landline home phone (No. 075-9660789)
The above 2 calls presumably covered final agreements on the Father/son stories.
For the entire day of 1 November and then of 2 November, Raffaele Sollecito’s fixed line was not affected by any calls, either incoming or outgoing.]
This finishes the merged listings of the Massei sections on AKP, MKP, and RSP, using the UPC telephone traffic, reappraising the more probable scenarios surrounding what happened at 7 Via della Pergola, in Perugia on the night of November 1-2, 2007.
Readers are invited to make their own suggestions on probable scenarios, here below or in email.
Wow…I am dizzy from reading this piece. Thank you so much for the energy devoted to this illuminating information.
I tweeted the link all over the place. Now I will read it again and again if need be.
Alex ven den Berg has written an excellent article about double jeopardy on his brilliant blog The Startling Glass:
Right. We have long needed this detailed record. Wonderful hard work by Cardiol. We will have a new navigation page up soon.
Thanks for the above link, the Machine.. Excellent clarity. And thanks very much to Cardiol. It’s the first time I’ve seen all the calls together in this comprehensive way.
Knox’s calls to Meredith’s phones are very indicative of knowing they couldn’t be answered. After all, it wasn’t Guede who rang M’s phones at that time. Why was Knox not more concerned about Meredith the following day, especially with the door unusually locked?
The answer has to be because she already knew. And that has to be why she rang her mum too, (and why she at first ‘forgot’ this call - because it betrays her in her vulnerability, needing her mum, which she hates to admit. It’s always, ‘I wish I’d been stronger/ smarter’)
And Sollecito and his father : what were they talking about??
Both AK and RS had a mobile phone and both are used to mobiles whereas RG did not (he did not own a mobile, perhaps due to attendant expenses).
RS would have known that many modern phones can be remotely turned on; police could have made a request to the phone company to remotely turn on the phone and locate its approximate position via the cell tower traingulation method.
Therefore if RS were to dump these two phones he would have removed the batteries from the phone and then discarded them in the ravine hoping that they will now never be located.
In the same way, AK would have at least turned off the phones because she would have been aware of the possible discovery of the two phones. The question aries why these two phones were allowed to ring at all?
Perhaps they assumed that the battery will die naturally in a couple of days and the phones will be irretrievably lost in the ravine.
Perhaps RG was tasked with this job. He did what he was told to do. Unfortunately the two phones did not land on the gorge but in the bushes in the garden.
AK was in a dilemma: if she allows it to ring for long the chances of a discovery is increased. If she does not call at all, then the needle may somehow point towards her. So she allowed some compromise.
Still I am not confident: who dumped the phones where they were finally discovered the next day?
I also think they disposed of other items too: a few pieces of clothes and a pair of shoes (and perhaps socks).
I remember that night: I was in Genova and my hotel heating system failed and I looked for additional blankets (could not locate; they were in the top drawer of the cupboard). It was cold.
Is it not mildly surprising that it is the AK’s calls to MK that lead to the early discovery of the murder?
We shall never know the contents of these discussions but Italian “kids” turn to their parents for advice and suggestions when they are in a mess. I presume that an American girl will never admit a crime even to her parents. I think papa Sollecito was told about the crime soon thereafter and I also believe that he made some suggestions.
We shall never know why these two “kids” canceled their trip to Gubbio. The more accurate question is what they were expected to do if they were really innocent?
Papa knew very well that the phone monitoring will start in a few days. He probably advised (wisely enough but does not fit with their characters) them to show some (fake) concern and not to leave the crime scene. Of course he knows far more than he is admitting in public.
There are few more puzzles still bugging me.
Thanks, Cardiol for compiling these details. Contents contain less information than these!
I would have loved the police to ask these two kids the following questions:
1. How often do you switch off your mobile?
2. How often do you call your parents?
3. What are the photos stored in your mobiles?
@ chami - thanks for your valuable contributions to this discussion.
One small point: I’m not saying that it was AK’s calls to MK that lead to the early discovery of the Murder.
One of AK’s calls to Meredith’s English phone led to the discovery of That Phone, but it was the Seeing-of-Filomena’s-phone by Mrs. Lana’s daughter that lead to the Postal Police investigation, which Did lead to the discovery of the murder.
Can somebody tell me if the home of Mrs. Lana,is in the direction of the way Guede would of gone, let’s say home? Or the way Knox and Sollecito would of gone, again maybe home?
@Bettina, I agree it made me dizzy, too. I am going to wait a day before rereading!
@Cardiol, thank you.
Here’s a possible scenario, it is speculation only. Even if somewhat accurate, it’s not since it needs to include a second sighting by Toto. Anyone please help by figuring out when that might have occurred.
Toto saw them twice. They came to the Square, left, and came back again.
Amanda at 20:35:48 (roughly 8:30pm on night of Nov. 1st) sends SMS to tell Patrick thanks for not making me come into work tonight. See you later.
Now she’s at loose ends and looking for fun. A few minutes later at 20:42:56 (almost 8:45pm) Raf gets a call from his dad who has just seen a fantastic movie and is in an upbeat mood. That makes Raf want to do something fun, heck if old daddio can have fun, why can’t I? So he’s game for whatever Amanda suggests.
Amanda is bored with Raf’s apartment, it feels too quiet and dead compared to her lively house where a lot of people live. She says let’s take this stuff (spliffs, alcohol bottles) back to my place and PARTAY on the big boat. Cool, says Raf.
They see Rudy as they’re walking to the cottage and tell him to bring some good stuff and join them, they can pay. So Rudy goes off to get some drugs. He returns with party candy and knocks on the door of the cottage. Knox lets him in. She is half dressed and wasted, she and Raf were starting to mess around in her bedroom.
They’re irritated that Meredith is back home so early, they thought they had the place to themselves for once. Knox had already stolen Meredith’s money earlier that afternoon planning to use it to buy souvenirs in Gubbio or to party hardy in Gubbio. She figured she wouldn’t see Meredith for a couple of days and could excuse the theft by “who knows who took your money, I was gone.”
Amanda wants to get wild tonight to take advantage of the unexpected holiday the boss gave her. She’d also like to bother somebody. In her mind sex is no fun if it’s not taboo, she likes to show off while she breaks rules. She had asked Guede for stronger drugs to experiment with.
That plus the booze had her looped and agitated. She was getting loud as usual probably climbing up on the kitchen table to do a striptease for the guys. They probably broke bottles, tore up the place, were WAVING KNIVES AROUND; a repeat of Seattle, only wilder. Finally things got so loud Meredith could hear it through her headphones and she came bursting out of her room to protest.
Maybe she saw Guede’s money falling out of his pocket or some cash on the table with the cocaine and she got suspicious and checked her purse and found her cash gone. She rushed back into the kitchen and started yelling,“All of you get out, get out now, or I’m calling the police. Amanda, you’re a drugged up tart and you’ve taken my money for your !~&*#* drugs, I’m calling the police.”
Meredith had been getting afraid of Amanda and her strange men sometime before but she always had Laura or Filomena in the house to feel more secure. Now it’s 3 against 1, too much, these folks are dangerous.
Meredith might have had close calls with other drunks before. She might also have seen Knox playing with a knife in the kitchen or living room as part of her “I’m tougher than you, Raf, or you Rudy, I’m from the wild wild West, watch this” “hey I dare ya”. Knox was trying to outdrink the guys and shock them with bravado and sensuality.
Maybe Raf pulled out his Brian Tighe knife to play games, to show Amanda, they were trying to impress Guede, too, maybe keep him a little scared because maybe they were scared of him. Soon it might’ve turned into a knife throwing game party or maybe dares and cutting themselves or each other. They had seen enough Manga to get bad ideas.
Meredith said she didn’t feel comfortable with these kinds of drugs in the house so Amanda insulted her, “Who do you think you are? Hey, I pay rent here too, it’s my place as much as yours, get over yourself, b…” Then Meredith threw a few choice words right back atcha. Knox said, “Oh you think you’re tough with your karate? that’s a joke, I dare you to mess with me, come on bring it, you think you’re all that”. “I’m calling the police,”. “Oh no you don’t,” and they grabbed her phone away. Meredith strikes out trying to retrieve her phone when Knox slaps Meredith in the face and they start pushing and shoving and grabbing hair. Meredith scratches Knox under the throat.
The males jump in to pull the girls apart. That’s when Knox says, “Hold her, hold her, she started it, (cursing) let me get to her”.
Meredith is shouting at them that she’s now reporting this assault. Knox grabs the kitchen knife and Raf’s knife both, one in each hand, and says, “Try me, you *&^^! You’d better shut the F… up or you’ll be sorry. Swear you won’t call the police, Swear it, swear on your mother’s life, or you’ll be hurting a lot worse than this.” The guys are still holding her, partly thinking to break up the fight.
Amanda grabbed a scarf and gagged Meredith so she could threaten her without fear of her screaming out. Maybe Knox said, “Show her a thing or two, Rudy,” to pay Meredith back for complaining about Knox turning tricks. Maybe this is when Rudy reached into Meredith’s pants.
After this perhaps Amanda pricked her a little with the knife at the throat to make her shut up while Rudy had his fun or to show her what they’d do if she turned them in to cops.
It scared Meredith silent, she couldn’t scream because of the gag. While they had her scared and submissive, they tied up her ankles and her wrists too and locked her in the room. This coming and going and doing the fight in stages would reflect Knox’s basic underlying violence yet her constant wishy-washiness.
Confused now they ran outside in a wild state fueled by drugs and alcohol, aggressive and irrational and fearless. Amanda said, “Let’s stop a car and carjack it, we’ll play chicken in the road.”
They were amped up and still not sure what to do with Meredith, they were stalling for time, trying to figure a plan, meanwhile letting her sweat it out while they thought of something to do to her. She was now a serious threat to all 3 of them if she reported the assault.
Hekuran Kokoman who was a 38-year-old Albanian came by driving his bomb of a car, perfect. He slowed thinking their bodies were a garbage sack in the road. It was a setup.
Raf rushed at the driver’s door to try to pull him out but Kokomani slapped out at Raf. Amanda came up on the other side of the car and waved a knife, she held it by the blade and by the handle over her head, threatening him that they wanted his car. (see stewarthome2000, Sun. Mar. 29, 2009 post on TJMK “Report from the Courtroom about Hekuran Kokomani as witness.)
Because he spoke very poor Italian much less English Kokomani didn’t understand exactly what they wanted.
He threw olives in Amanda’s face and then threw a cell phone and hit her in the forehead, not hard enough to leave a bruise or if so she used the stolen makeup to cover it or hid bruise under her hair in days afterward.
Kokomani heard Meredith’s groans and her voice calling out muffled and her thumping. He said, “What’s that noise?” Guede said it was just music, said the knife Amanda had waved was no big deal, she’d just used it to cut a birthday cake. Guede was lying fast. (Meredith’s mom’s birthday was soon, and Knox had wrapped a birthday gift the day before, birthday stories were on their mind, Guede’s birthday was only a few weeks away in December). Guede tried to make Koko laugh off the attack as a prank.
They failed to get Koko’s car, he drove off with them still chasing him. He took pix of them but photo was too dark so he deleted it but not before telling his friends at the bar about it and showing them the pic.
Now the three returned to the house with intent to threaten Meredith and make her promise to shut up about the incident OR ELSE. They’d beg or force her to chalk it up to party mania and alcohol. Maybe this is when Amanda slammed Meredith’s head up against the wall because Amanda had just been hit in the head by Koko and it still hurt.
Meredith is still gagged while they torment her a bit more and threaten her into future silence. They threaten to do worse to her more than a few slaps if she tries to tell on them later. They become The Black Hand.
Maybe Amanda’s extra mad because Meredith threatened to tell Laura all about everything, the hard drugs, the violence, and the theft and issue an ultimatum. It would ruin Foxy’s reputation with Laura, whom Amanda really liked.
Also Meredith might have said, “I can’t live like this anymore, I’m telling Laura and Filomena that it’s either you or me, one of us has got to go.”
But where could Amanda go? Not home, no way. But Amanda didn’t want to live at Raf’s, he was graduating and moving to Milan, plus she didn’t really feel at home at his place, which probably charged twice the rent of 7 Via della Pergola, even if she could sublet Raf’s apartment when he left; nor did she want a committed relationship to him.
Her money was getting low.
Even if Meredith agreed to be sworn to silence, Amanda knew there’d be a sullen and dreadful atmosphere living together at the cottage after this. She’d have to start looking for new digs and maybe new income, it would be too stressful.
She was terrified of her mom finding out she’d been kicked out by the other girls at the cottage. She was afraid of a police report for theft, assault and drugs. She could excuse the loud party in Seattle, but not this. So they talk with each other in the kitchen about how to shake sense into Meredith and to formulate a plan, maybe even discuss killing her and removing the body if she won’t agree to their demands.
Meredith overheard them talking in the kitchen about what they’d do to her. Then they saw the towtruck (does this timing work?) so they had to gag her tighter because she might alert the towtruck guy or the family in the stranded car. They knew Kokomani had been able to hear her yelling before through the hasty gag.
After tow truck people left (tow truck left at 23:13, that’s 11:13pm if I’m not mistaken in converting the time), Knox threatened Meredith while she was still bound and gagged. They said, “We’ve gotta hurry and do this before somebody else comes, like that darn tow truck, Koko has also seen us, we can’t catch a break.”
This time they forced Meredith onto her knees to listen to them, that if she went to the police they’d retaliate, that Guede “knew people”, that Meredith would never be safe again in Perugia.
“Do you understand? Tell me you understand!” Maybe they earlier had kicked at her door telling her to be quiet, damage to the door they lied about.
They gave her time to sweat after the first knife cut and first threats, after they first locked her in her room. When the coast was clear of the tow truck crowd, they reentered Meredith’s bedroom where they found her desperate and more scared than ever. Her terrified eyes were wild and she’d been crying from the pain and from the terror, plus she’d had time to assess her danger and was angry and indignant, maybe fully determined to resist.
Now they pulled their knives back out to intimidate her while they talked about what they’d do to her if she dared speak of this incident to the police or roommates.
At 23:41 which is 11:41pm getting close to midnight, Raf’s dad tries to call him again, but gets no answer and dad leaves a message. This was Raf’s final warning by a loving father which could have saved him a giant mistake, but Raf was already involved too deep.
So near midnight they pulled down Meredith’s gag to hear her answer, to hear her tell them, “Yes, I won’t turn you in,” but Meredith knew she had only one quick chance to scream because they would put the gag back on.
So she screamed the bloodcurdling scream that Nara heard. It was her last chance and she took it. This scared Knox so badly she stuck the knife in deeper making a 2nd cut to Meredith’s throat and then she freaked when the blood squirted so she said to the guys, “Help shut her up, shut her up, please help me shut her up. She won’t cooperate, it’s her own fault”. Saying this she handed a knife to either Raf or Guede, whoever reached out his hand to be the “biggest man”.
Led by Knox’s blatant example either Guede or Raf dug in the final stab that almost severed Meredith’s carotid, but missed the main artery. Before this they had choked Meredith when she first mentioned calling the police and after her first insults to Knox.
Possibly Knox throttled her with her hands around her throat to half strangle her, “Oh you will, will you? gonna call cops? we’ll see about that, no chance in hell, you think we won’t do it, huh?” After that they gagged her, while she was still choking because of their hands around her neck she was coughing so could barely speak.
Meredith fell down after the third knife wound and Guede caught her, since he had one hand around her wrist holding her while the two nutjobs did the first knife threats. They ran outside again but Guede heard Meredith begging him not to leave her, so he stayed and tried to staunch the blood. Raf’s and Amanda’s footsteps were heard on the gravel and the stairs, but they went only as far as Piazza Grimana to listen wait and watch in case somebody had heard the struggle or the scream.
Toto saw them. Then they left again and went back in the cottage and about 20 minutes later Meredith’s phones are removed from the cottage, so she is dead and they are starting the cleanup and coverup.
I realize I have not accounted for Toto’s first sighting of the lovebirds in Piazza Grimana with this timeline, which is pure conjecture on my part. Please amend.
“I think papa Sollecito was told about the crime soon thereafter and I also believe that he made some suggestions…Of course he knows far more than he is admitting in public”.
Agreed, though I doubt RS admitted to him any more than being there when RG did it.
Have AK’s family been privy to any similar confidences from their daughter, or do they buy her (current) public story line that she wasn’t there?
I suspect the latter: as you say “an American girl will never admit a crime even to her parents”, nor perhaps spin the (fabricated) story of mere presence at such a horrendous crime.
It’s still bothering me that RS’s sister seems to have been lost in the mix somehow. Logically Papa Sollecito would turn to her since she would be a direct source of any first information or what the police knew before anyone else.
That way the family could react first to cover for RS. I believe that is why RS threw AK under the bus at the first opportunity by removing her alibi since Papa Sollecito advised him to do so. Still this is all conjecture on my part but to my mind it’s worth not forgetting about little sister since she got fired later anyway.
I read on PMF.net last week that Amanda said she dreamed President Obama shook her hand and welcomed her back to the United States. I don’t know when this dream occurred. Interpreting this dream led me to some interesting parallels between President Obama and Amanda, as well as them being total opposites.
Obama is also a Japanese name associated with the Samurai or way of the warrior. That recalls Amanda’s trip to Japan, samurai swords and manga, even the two horns on top of a Samurai helmet like horns of a devil. This dream at first seemed simple, but was quite complex, more than Amanda wanting a presidential pardon.
Main theme of dream: to gain power I embrace the opposite of my real self.
Main figure in dream is a powerful man, the most powerful man in the entire United States, perhaps the world. This fits with Amanda’s megalomania. The opposite races appear, he is black, she is white.
This may be a symbol of night and day, evil and good. (I mean no disrespect to President Obama, the color is merely a symbol of other things.) Amanda committed her crime at night, in the dark. The dream tells her she has to go dark as in be silent, despite her love of talk and words. She has to embrace her opposite to get the smiling welcome home.
Main meaning of dream: she has linked up to her Dark Side and likes the power. Dream shows she places a white hand inside a black hand or vice versa. She is friendly with it, at peace with it, she is welcomed “home” to her dark side. It has brought her power, celebrity, world fame like Obama has all these things in a positive way. Like Obama she is an unlikely candidate for this position, as he was a rare minority president.
The main hope of her Obama dream is getting herself on Air Force One. (more of that later)
She greets her opposite self in the dream. She is a lowly prisoner in an Italian jail. He is living in powerful abundance in the White House. She is female, he is male. She reaches out to access male power, political power, and her male side.
SIMILARITIES between Amanda and Obama:
He lives in Washington, so does she. He has identity issues being mixed race. She has identity issues being part “German” and part Scottish or whatever Curt Knox is. She is from two warring families after divorce, and now she feels half Italian. Obama was raised by a Jakartan stepfather for several years. Amanda was raised by a stepfather for years.
Obama has to fight the birther movement. Amanda may have unresolved issues about her birth before her parents were married 9 months. Obama was brought up in Hawaii, a big island on the west coast of the U.S. Amanda was brought up beside the Pacific. Obama was carried at age 6 to the Far East (Indonesia) but returned to Hawaii. Amanda visited Japan, the far East, and returned.
Obama’s mother, Ann Dunham lived in Seattle. Amanda lives in Seattle. Obama has only females in his family. Amanda has only females in her family. Obama’s closest friend, his wife, is named Michelle. Amanda has a big supporter named Michelle (Moore). Obama has a dog, Amanda had a dog. Obama named his daughters Malia and Natasha.
Amanda named a short story character Natasha. Obama wrote his autobiography, “Dreams From My Father” about his Kenyan father whom he admired but rarely saw and who died rather young in a car crash. Amanda wrote her autobiography, “Waiting to Be Heard.”
Obama’s mother was a teacher. Amanda’s mother was a teacher. Obama has risen to fame and is a polarizing figure. Obama is fighting a war in two places Iraq and Afghanistan, wars with religious conflict as well as political conflict. Amanda is fighting a war in court but two countries are concerned besides her own, England and Italy.
Obama served a 4-year term. Amanda served a 4-year term in prison. I think this connection is pivotal in the dream. Obama was reelected and returned to office for four more years, to serve until January 2017. Amanda may have to return to serve more time.
Obama flies in Air Force One. Amanda was all over the news on her special flight to the States after she won her appeal.
Amanda flies home because ERR force won. To err is human, to forgive divine. Amanda flew to freedom because of a series of errors. The force of error and confusion won her case.
Other meanings of Air Force One, or Air force 1:
Heir force won (Sollecito heir to rich dad who helped them.)
Her force won.
Air force is the force of wind. Hot air saved Amanda.
Her voice won.
Air Force is like forcing words through lips, the air of oratory. This is what flies Amanda: words
Air Force One. Amanda only interested in Number One, she is number one. She feels she has won.
On the presidential seal is the American eagle.In one talon it holds an olive branch. Olives are also associated with Italy. In the other talon it holds a sheaf of arrows. Amanda used a sharp object to overpower a person. The motto in Latin is there, too: E pluribus unum. It means “from many, one or that many things are unified into one, like Amanda’s supporters forming FOA.
Obama defeated a woman (Hillary Clinton) to gain the Democratic nomination. Then Obama and Joe Biden as his running mate defeated a man and woman team to gain the presidency. That was John McCain and Sarah Palin. Maybe Amanda felt she defeated both parents (the old man and the energetic younger seeming Edda)to travel to Italy.
Obama makes important speeches. Amanda made important speeches in court.
Amanda is a minority in her prison house. Few Americans are incarcerated in Italy. Obama is a minority in his house, the White House.
Amanda now identifies in the dream with a minority but a powerful one. Also she has become an Italian, they are a minority in Seattle.
The White House has columns. Amanda has newspaper columns writing about her. The White House is prominent with its front porch. Amanda had a porch at Via Della Pergola.
Obama went to Harvard Law School. Michelle Obama went to Harvard Law School. Amanda is going to prison cell law school and is surrounded by lawyers.
Obama has identity issues. His critics even questioned his religious status. Amanda went to Catholic school but refused to identify as a Catholic. Obama attended a Catholic school in Jakarta (St. Francis of Assisi) grades 1, 2, and part of grade 3.
Obama’s mother took classes at University of Washington. Amanda takes classes at University of Washington.
Obama’s mother, Ann Dunham, spent her teenage years on Mercer Island, Washington. Amanda spent her growing years in Washington.
Obama has one half-sister named Maya Kassandra. Amanda has two half-sisters, their mother is Cassandra.
Obama is a die hard Chicago White Sox fan. Amanda wore light gray sweatpants with large black letters of “Chicago White Sox” logo on one leg in her arrest photos IIRC.
Obama’s campaign slogan was “Yes We Can”. Amanda also tried to stay positive on first being jailed and kept telling others she knew she would get out of prison, “Yes I Can”.
Obama’s mother was divorced. Amanda’s mother was divorced.
See wikipedia for “Obama (surname)” where it says Obama is also a Japanese name, meaning “little beach”. The Obama clan were a Samurai clan of feudal Japan. Amanda went to Japan and was photographed in costume dress of traditional Japanese garb. Maybe she identifies with the Samurai cult or way of the warrior. Samurai swords are famous and they often hold them in two hands, two swords. This is reminiscent of her knife crime.
Personally I would take her mention that she dreamt that President Obama shook her hand and welcomed her back to the United States with a HUGE pinch (carton) of salt.
This is a noted fantasist/liar. If she thinks concocting such a dream will impress everyone that she’s a genuine good person, a patriot (and non-racist to boot) she’ll do that without a second thought.
Someone in the Knox family should have asked questions many years ago as to why this child ever needed to construct such a false self. Way too late now, obviously.
Some other points to consider….
Why didn’t Knox leave a message on the answering service?..‘Meredith I need you to get in touch something strange has happened at the cottage’
Why did she not text Meredith?
Why didn’t she contact RS by phone?
Why was there no traces of DNA or fingerprints found on the discarded phones.
AK and RS attempted to kick in Merediths bedroom door. Why was no phone call made from outside the bedroom door? (So as they would ascertain if Meredith was in the room)
In my dream analysis books, there is a general consensus that ‘president’ will represent an authority figure such as father or dominant male.
The unconscious ‘may evoke such an image to represent the father archetype in order to alert to disruptive or dictatorial behaviour within the self’.
It may also indicate where someone is feeling superior to others, and/or issues to do with power and influence ( hence slightly megalomaniacal tendency to see herself as a celebrity?)
So a more mundane interpretation would seem to me to speak of AK being dominated at this point by her father and /or lawyers, and doing all the recent public events to please them.
I don’t think it’s good news. One needs to look to the opposite in interpreting dreams, this is right…but if it all seems to be nice it may not be!
Of course, one could only really interpret accurately when more information is truthfully available, such as the accompanying feelings, colours etc.
Haha, seems like Knox and Sollecito are not the only ones to have been released from jail recently…http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-21234914
@starsdad - the true answers to your 5 Qs would be self-incriminating for AK/RS.
Sollecito wrote a letter to TGcom24. I suppose it is to be funny, sarcastic. I find it crazy. To make fun of Judge Massei, at this point, is just plain crazy.
I am translating, but do not think I can finish by tonight. His father should drag him home or cut him lose.
In the first sentence of your 6/29/13 @8:13 post, you have, “RG did not own a mobile phone.”
Please refer to page 114 in Angel Face (hardback edition) where Barbie Nadeau states, “Neither Rudy’s nor Meredith’s cell phones showed any trace of contact between the two”.
One would expect that a cellphone would be essential for a “hustler”, drug-dealer like Rudy. He lived off that phone, no?
I did not post that…sorry. From the two books I read he did not own a phone. Was he a drug-dealer?
I had heard something about the police taking/keeping RG’s phone, hence he didn’t have one? Maybe I’ve mis-remembered!
Also, have read several times that RG wasn’t ‘a drifter’, a serial burglar, or a known main drug dealer, although he was thought to share out drugs bought for personal use etc, for which presumably people would chip in for their share.
I have often wondered whether the whole scenario was simpler than one might imagine :
Guede was sharing drugs with Amanda ; he was attracted to her; perhaps he/she thought she might ‘pay him’ with sex at some point, even a vague promise with flirtation?;
RS comes on the scene for 5 days and is possessive of AK; AK meets RG in the square and drugs are requested / offered/ shared, with possibly RG bringing them up to the house as Hopeful suggested.
Meanwhile AK has stolen the money from Meredith, thinking she would get away with it; however Meredith discovers it on her early return and is rightly furious; AK wants the money to pay for the drugs…and comes up with the appalling idea that M could have her money back if she pays for AK’s drugs by having sex with Rudy.
RS is roped in to force the issue, holding knives as a threat, RG half heartedly starts to go along with this; Meredith resists; it all escalates in the cruel and tragic way we now know; at some point RG ‘gets the s**** ’ from fear and goes to the bathroom hurriedly- maybe wasn’t there for the final knife cruelty?goes back in, panics and runs straight out the house as evidenced….
Well, that’s my half- penny worth of speculation…
The PR campaign turned RG into all those things. Can’t have the only guy in prison for the murder being the only one without a record.
@SeekingUnderstanding, thanks for the dream analysis re: main power figure may be AK’s father. I agree that unless we could know more about the dream especially her emotions invoked by the figure, we’re only speculating in the dark.
It’s said that any figure in a dream may represent the dreamer, or part of the dreamer. I am a rank amateur in dream interpretation, so everyone should take my theories with a grain of salt. It was fun and beneficial to read up a little more on President Obama even if in relation to Amanda.
We know her Washington State Senator Cantwell was intervening for her in early years and FOA were writing letters to the President. If she did dream this (some speculate even that’s a lie), maybe she got the president in her mind from what FOA was doing. Also she was meeting Rocco Girlanda a big rep for Italy with government job.
The idea that Obama in the dream is Amanda’s father come to discipline her is very possibly the true meaning. It would go with Curt Knox’s image as the stern, “keep-it-together” type the exact opposite of Edda. He shows up in dream as a warning to stay dignified (like Obama?), careful of speech, and hold up a bit longer until she can come home. If that’s the case, it’s clever how she masks the man in the dream to keep from recognizing him as Curt.
One of my favorite poems is by Langston Hughes with the line “Hold fast to dreams…for when dreams die, life is a broken winged bird that cannot fly.” Simple but powerful (Langston means life goals, not bedtime dreams, but still the idea of dreams is neat.)
To be welcomed back into the bosom of your homeland by no less than The President (likely asking her to autograph his personal copy of WTBH) is no less than the sort of grandiose delusion one would expect from a narcissist such as Knox. Why stop at Obama; why not God?? I have much respect for you, Hopeful, but I worry that you are sounding manic, in your “what if” post above.
I thought it was the speculation of a newcomer to the case, until I scrolled down to your byline. Are things okay in your world? I think you are too well versed in the knowns of this case to imagine a two-stage attack,in which M is left wounded in her room while the party animals decide what to do next.
One of my friends is off for a semester abroad in Austria. Her dad had to have notarised papers signed stating his liability for any undue expenses she might incur during her visit. She is a good person, and NOT on the Dean’s list.
My younger half brother will enroll at uni this Fall. He is a total introvert, heavily into Manga and anime, and a science geek, an Honours student and YES, on the Dean’s list. But lacking an iota of violence. It will be his first time spent away from home for more than a few weeks. I hope he blossoms on campus.
I think Curt’s “thing” is strictly an image issue. It is all about “trumped up” (the donaldesque) pride and the sacrosanct family name and the “no daughter of mine” is going to be publicly sorry for committing any unsavoury acts as long as there is breath in my body. I don’t know what his dreams consist of, but I’m sure he wishes he’d never met Edda.
To be welcomed back into the bosom of your homeland by no less than The President (likely asking her to autograph his personal copy of WTBH) is no less than the sort of grandiose delusion one would expect from a narcissist such as Knox. Why stop at Obama; why not God?? I have much respect for you, Hopeful, but I worry that you are sounding manic, in your “what if” post above. I thought it was the speculation of a newcomer to the case, until I scrolled down to your byline. Are things okay in your world? I think you are too well versed in the knowns of this case to imagine a two-stage attack,in which M is left wounded in her room while the party animals decide what to do next.
One of my friends is off for a semester abroad in Austria. Her dad had to have notarised papers signed stating his liability for any undue expenses she might incur during her visit. She is a good person, and NOT on the Dean’s list. My younger half brother will enroll at uni this Fall. He is a total introvert, heavily into Manga and anime, and a science geek, an Honours student and YES, on the Dean’s list. But lacking an iota of violence. It will be his first time spent away from home for more than a few weeks. I hope he blossoms on campus.
I think Curt’s “thing” is strictly an image issue. It is all about “trumped up” (the donaldesque) pride and the sacrosanct family name and the “no daughter of mine” is going to be publicly sorry for committing any unsavoury acts as long as there is breath in my body. I don’t know what his dreams consist of, but I’m sure he wishes he’d never met Edda.
“grandiose delusion one would expect from a narcissist such as Knox” hits the nail on the head.
Pete has accurately discussed the anger and rage issues around Curt Knox - which may have been inherited/ copied/ expressed by his daughter…so her shame is his shame, unacknowledged or not.
It’s typical of a family’s behaviour with unconscious ‘knots’.
Cardiol on 06/29/13 at 01:09 PM
You are right! But I had a feeling that the police was reluctant to get up and investigate, as they have not received any formal complaint of a missing phone. But finding two working phone in the same neighborhood caused some alarm.
But anyway, the discovery of the first phone started the chain reaction. I was careless.
Do you have any information about the mobile phone of RG? Did he really had one in his own name? If yes, what are the records found about his call details? For example, calls to friends and relations and calls to drug dealers and agents and customers.
I believe that they wanted to make appear that the “thief” has not only stolen money but the mobile phones too. But any normal “thief” will first get rid of the sim card and sell off the mobile for what it is worth (very little for stolen mobiles).
So, the mobiles were disposed off in a panic move but what exactly happened? RG, tell the truth for a change!
Raffaele’s verbal diarrhoea isn’t getting any better:
So RS and AK are ‘victims’?
Three certain characteristics of a serial bully :
1) denial and manipulative lying
3) assuming the victim posture
Thanks for that. Certainly makes sense here doesn’t it?
Yes, in a word….the profile fits like a glove, especially regarding AK being the female instigator bully, often more cunning, and manipulating a male ( or two?) into carrying out the physically aggressive manifestation of the bullying.
But the real violence and cruelty begins in the mind that conceives it.
Does anyone have any more information on this?
Which Knox DNA data is referred to in “Using the software on data from Knox’s trial suggests that it was very unlikely that her DNA was at the crime scene”.
There was Knox DNA in the bathroom at Via della Pergola and on the knife found at RS’s place, is all that being cast in doubt?
The software still has some bugs if you ask me! (I note that Carla Vecchiotti has contributed to Balding’s paper, hope that’s not sinister).
This is David Balding’s academic paper:
I noticed he refers to Carla Vecchiotti as a professor. According to her CV, she is an associate professor:
‘In conclusion, the court stated that all of the elements put together, and considered singularly, create a comprehensive and complete framework without gaps or incongruities and lead to the inevitable and directly consequential attribution of the crimes to both the accused.’
this was at the end of the Summary to the Massei Report, and it has been emphasised again and often that all the evidence MUST be taken all together ‘- in tutti ’ I think- which would have to include any evidence of a clean-up (i.e. why isn’t there more DNA?), and the staged break-in, and the mixed samples etc.
And of course other evidence that places AK at the scene of the crime, or raises the probability for this being the case.
This is interesting too. It would seem it is debatable whether in fact it is low template DNA ?
Also, techniques have been shown to be ‘cutting-edge’, particularly in improving results from old samples, I understand.
In Balding’s paper he states “... whether there is DNA from Sollecito for which the evidence remains very strong”.
So his probabilistic model and software tends to suggest that it was “very unlikely” that AK’s DNA was present at the crime scene but RS’s was very likely present. Since this odd finding doesn’t fit with everything else we know in the case I think he should check his data again.
I agree Odysseus.
I’ve also studied Baldings original paper and believe that The New Scientist article referring to it is a false alarm.
The references to the “Crime Scene” are grossly misleading! Balding is referring to what he calls the crime scene DNA profile (CSP).
It is ridiculous to argue that “it is unlikely that Knox’s DNA is at the crime-scene.” Knox’s bedroom-lamp was in the murder-room!
Balding is applying a statistical argument to the probability that it was Knox’s DNA on the murder-knife.
Whatever statistical arguments are employed the bottom-line issue is “Is it, or is it not Knox’s DNA?”
If newer low-copy-number techniques are applied, we may have a more definitive answer to the question.
Sorry I missed that you had already made the same point with reference to Massei - evidence must be considered “in tutti”.
Thanks for clarifying that Balding is alluding to the knife DNA, that wasn’t clear to me.
Obfuscation flourishes! Not only does media repeat it The New Scientist promotes it.
Knox’s defence has included the argument that ‘the knife’ itself was never even at the murder-scene,so she loves the obfuscation that it is ‘unlikely’ that it’s her DNA on it.
You’ve made me think harder about two-stage attack. My scenario was based on believing Kokomani’s testimony about the fight with all 3 of them when he heard thumps and muffled cries. If he heard thumps it must have been Meredith already hurt and trying to yell. Surely Koko didn’t invent the conversation with Rudy about cake.? (unsure)
alternatively: Maybe the trio had turned up loud music to drown out Meredith’s noise and Guede was right about the music. Koko wasn’t taken seriously as a witness, but I can’t see how he would forget a close call like that. Which night it occurred, that’s the uncertain part.
I’d be grateful to understand, so please remind me of the facts that make it implausible it was a two-stage attack, unless it would require too long an explanation. I’m obviously forgetting something important. I know one problem in my above scenario is it left out a second sighting by Toto, is there any suggested timing for that?
As for the mania, ha ha! I’ve been extremely verbose lately, for sure. Rack it up to a bit too much happiness, which to explain would add too many more words off-topic. I think I’ve used my quota for a couple of months.
I even dreamed last night of the significance of Meredith’s foot that was uncovered. I felt elated thinking it showed she could still kick Amanda with it, that her foot meant she could still pivot or balance, or that she could still “go” places despite what was done to her. Very useless in a law court but a nice thought, there are several others on “foot” but they’ll keep.
In all that I’ve read, I can’t recall any of the forensics people mentioning that M’s bruising suggested the use of bindings or gags. If there was any pause between the initial wounds she suffered (head banged against the wall?) time may have been bought by strangling to the point of lost consciousness.
Even the proponents of the Guede- as- lone- wolf scenario did not suggest that M’s lost consciousness is what enabled his unaided multi-weapon attack. It is much more likely that a verbal slinging match between the flatmates carried on for some minutes, with M not perceiving any bodily threat until the others were in the room and the knives came out.
Once wounded, there would have been no point in threatening to call for the authorities; it would have been purely M’s struggle to stay alive, and her assailants having to rapidly silence that struggle, lest they draw outside attention. If she’d had even seconds alone in her room and conscious, surely she would have thrown open the window and screamed for help.
Kokomani’s bizarre account has to be taken with a cellarful of salt, and Toto observed the Perugia 2 for the second time that night, as they waited on tenterhooks to be sure the coast was clear after the towtruck departed (and no police turned up), to begin their staging and cleanup. Rudy was probably stinking up the disco by then.
Furthermore, Balding completely misses the point.
The issue was never whether AK’s DNA was on the knife blade. The knife was found in RS’s kitchen where it was indisputably LIKELY that AK’s DNA would be on the knife (it was found on the knife-handle), and was never disputed.
The issue is whether MEREDITH’s DNA was on the blade (Meredith, also indisputably, had never been in RS’s rented apartment, let alone his kitchen).
[Reposted here for Hopeful]
@mimi If forensics ruled out bindings or gags then that puts an end to my theory of the two-stage attack, which depends on Meredith being subdued or bound in her room while the trio went outside and Kokomani saw them. I thought Meredith’s wrists were bruised from being held tightly by Rudy and Raf, so I wondered if those wrist marks might as well have been made by tight fabric bindings that wouldn’t cut like ropes but would hold her hands behind her back. Interesting about her shouting out the window, a real possibility.
I agree the choking was severe and would have rendered Meredith unable to speak for at least a few minutes afterwards. Maybe they choked her almost to the point of passing out, and more than once. They might have locked her in the bedroom right after this first partial assault, while she was still choking and had no voice, then discussed in the kitchen the next step. I keep going back to Amanda’s testimony of being in the kitchen with hands over her ears not wanting to hear something terrible occurring in the other room. It might have a grain of truth to it, in the sense that Amanda had left Meredith in the bedroom and gone elsewhere (maybe outdoors, maybe the kitchen?) not wanting anyone to hear the sounds. That leads me back to the sounds Kokomani heard that he questioned. And if Koko’s correct, the three had left the cottage during the crime, with Meredith still alive but wounded.
On the other hand the prosecution believes it was a quick, blitz attack on Meredith where the fatal wounds ended her resistance quickly, whereas it took her longer to expire. The more I speculate, the more confused I become. All the details are perplexing.
Your point that in Amanda’s dream, Obama might have been a symbol for God was excellent. He would be a sign of the ultimate authority, as in Father-God, and I imagine Amanda wouldn’t hesitate to feel herself equal to divinity. If she dreamed this during the time she met often with Father Scarabatolli in prison, a man she found comfort in, it would be make sense on many levels: Father Curt, Father of the church, Father God in heaven. She wants to be accepted by all three and pardoned, while the dream figure may be warning her to discipline herself. Maybe she felt she had done that well in her four years of semi-silence and she deserved a reward for her self-discipline regardless of guilt in the murder.
Posted by Hopeful
To me the Obama dream is just another AK fabrication, designed to win her sympathy and halt/delay future extradition.
Thank You very much for this excellent summary of the phone records ! Great job !
After reading your summary, I have a much better understanding of all the “shenanigans” that were going on, especially with Knox calling Meredith’s cell phones when she “thought” those phones were forever lost.
Again, thank you !
I read some of your cell phone timeline, as it was the 12:47 call by AK to her mother that clinched it for me when I read this site’s “Cellphone Activity,” years ago. The reason that call clinched it for me was because the Communications Police had been recorded by the CCTV camera as arriving at 12:25, and they themselves put 12:30 on the report. We surmise- I believe correctly- that AK made this call when she and RS went into her bedroom, and he called his sister and the ‘other’ police, as well. After AK was arrested and Edda Mellas went to Perugia, Mellas was questioned by police before she could talk to AK.
Not knowing to lie, she said AK had told her that she’d ‘just come there for a shower… was seeing strange things… and Meredith’s door was locked.’
In short, AK was making it sound to her mother like she was there, alone—when in fact RS was there, the Postal police were there, and Filomena’s boyfriend was on the way. Surely AK realized that her mother would tell her to call the police. Then RS made the call to his sister and the regular police. Likewise, RS failed to tell sis or the regular police that the postal police were there. It seemed clear to me that the two of them were trying to establish that they had called the police before anyone showed up. GUILTY.
But in your timeline, you say that the Postal police had just shown up right before AK made the second call to her mother, at 13:24. Am I mistaken about the time of the arrival of the Postal Police?
It is not correct to say that the CCTV camera recorded the time of arrival of the police as 12.25. Their fiat punto is first seen on camera at 9.36. That’s not to say that it wasn’t in the immediate vicinity earlier but not captured on the CCTV. The defence argued with some plausibility that the clock on the camera was some 10 minutes slow, and so there is some doubt as to the actual time of arrival of the police on foot at the cottage and whether this was before or after the calls were made..
In retrospect I am inclined to think that the calls were made before, but don’t forget that AK had already alerted Filomena to the “break - in” in her room and she and RS were expecting Filomena’s arrival at any time. They would therefore be sensitive to anyone arriving or looking for the cottage.
Whether AK and RS made their calls before or after the arrival of the police is a moot point but not desperately significant in the context of the overall evidence. I am sorry if I misled people by stating the time of arrival as 12.25 in the powerpoint with Kermit.
There were one or two facts wrong in that presentation of the evidence but also there were a number of important omissions such as, for instance, my recent observations on the partial clean up.
A very good point was also made by Welshie not so long ago about that cellphone activity on the morning of 2nd November.
AK told Filomena about the “break - in” in her room in a call at 12.35. We know from this that AK and RS knew about about that at least by then. We also know that Filomena told AK to call the police. RS then gets a call from his father at 12.40. What did they discuss? Did RS omit to mention a burglary? And why is it that the call to the police is not made for another 10 minutes, or if you like 15 minutes after AK was told by Filomena to call the police, until 12.51, after they have both felt the need to call, in AK’s case, her mother, and in RS’ case, his sister. Quite bizarre but then I think it is obvious that AK was using the time to build up an alibi via her mother and RS was waiting for his dad to first have a word with Vanessa (in the Carabinieri) before he called her. When RS did speak to his sister, they spent just 39 seconds talking to each other - impossible, surely, to spend so little time on the matter unless she had advance notice.
This long delay in notifying the police, despite being repeatedly told that this had to be done, and certainly in the context of Meredith’s locked door and concern for her safety, is quite as damaging as the issue as to whether the police arrived before or afterwards.
Indeed the only acceptable explanation is that the police did actually arrive when they said they did (before the calls at 12.47, 12.50, 12.51 and 12.54) with the consequence that AK and RS were otherwise engaged with them and had to wait to make the calls. Furthermore, knowing that Dad was speaking to Vanessa may have been why Raffaele was able to tell the postal police that they were waiting for the Carabinieri!
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