Appeal Session #10: After Defense Remarks Panel Of Judges Reaches Its Decision: BOTH GUILTY

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Thinking of the Kerchers today.

Meredith Kercher, RIP

“Said no blood on knife because of negative TMB and blood confirmatory tests”

A positive test proves the presence of blood. A negative test simply says that the amount of blood is below the level of detection or absent. He is just trying to simplify the TRUTH.

“Ghirga: cited the claims about picograms, said amount is not the point, the problem is test repetition and other conditions”

He is a slow learner. Many experiments are difficult to repeat AND if some sample were preserved for repetition and confirmation, they would have said that it has been contaminated already.

The real question is WHY HE DID NOT ATTEND THE TESTING SESSIONS WITH HIS EXPERTS?

Thank You all for the updates.

Thoughts and prayers for the Kercher Family today.

May today be the day that there will finally be TRUE JUSTICE for Meredith !

Jackie a lawyer on PMF dot Org commented on this claim by Knox lawyer Dalla Vedova (who is not a criminal lawyer and has repeatedly got the law wrong to amusement of the other lawyers):

*********

Machiavelli:  D.V. emphasized the single pieces of evidence should be assessed each one in parceled out, atomized way before considering the whole.

Jackie: “Not so, in the common law world.

Consider, for example, the Supreme Court of Canada.

In the following 2 cases the SC of Canada makes it clear that the RD standard is to be applied to “the whole” of the evidence, NOT to “individual pieces of evidence”:

R. v. Morin, [1988] 2 SCR 345

“…It is misdirection to instruct the jury to apply the standard of reasonable doubt to individual pieces of evidence.
…
the function of a standard of proof is not the weighing of individual items of evidence but the determination of ultimate issues.
…
a jury should be instructed that the facts are not to be examined separately and in isolation with reference to the criminal standard…”

Stewart v. The Queen, [1977] 2 SCR 748

“…the trial judge fell into a double error, not only did he apply repeatedly a much stricter standard than that which is required, but he applied it to particular elements of the evidence taken in isolation. In other words, instead of taking together all the evidence and properly relating every fact to all the others, he dealt separately with each discarding them successively as insufficient to meet his exaggerated standard of proof….

In a charge to a jury, the failure of the trial judge…to instruct the jurors that the whole must be considered together in deciding whether there is proof beyond reasonable doubt, would certainly constitute misdirection requiring a new trial…

It may be, and such is often the case, that the facts proven by the Crown, examined separately have not a very strong probative value; but all the facts put in evidence have to be considered each one in relation to the whole, and it is all of them taken together, that may constitute a proper basis for a conviction.”

Jackie: Unless the Florence Court wants to stand fully at odds with common law courts in respect of the proper conception and application of the RD standard, they must reject CDV’s argument.

*************

Plus the Supreme Court in annulling Hellmann specifically warned against what Dalla Vedova (and the FOA forces) espouse.

Longer-form reports from the court (but few photos, other than of Sollecito) are starting to appear in the Italian media. Here’s one of them.

http://www.umbria24.it/firenze-raffaele-e-in-aula-per-lultima-udienza-in-serata-la-sentenza-segui-la-diretta/257548.html

We will be translating some later today. Help welcomed.

Machiavelli, thank you so much for being in the courtroom. Without your tweets we would be relegated to the horribly biased reporting from big media storymongers.

Thanks also to the brave and enlightened reporters Andrea Vogt and Barbie Nadeau for bucking the herd for so long. Truth isn’t always popular.

Correction: I meant Judge Nencini in last comment, not Crini. Crini was the one who did the marvelous job a few weeks ago of presenting the prosecution case to the Florence jury. It was vast and accurate, a tremendous labor.

Now I will focus on seeing photos of Maresca in the courtroom and probably in clamorous interviews afterwards with twenty microphones in his face. Please let it shine with a glow of peace and victory on his face for the Kerchers.

Meanwhile may the honorable Judge Nencini and the other judge and jurors discern with wisdom and courage.

Hard to believe we are here waiting, on edge, for at least the third time in so many years. 

Agree that Amanda looks quite aged and thin for being so young. Her eyes always look so coldly determined and angry now and a bit frightening to imagine her angry at me.  Must be quite a strain waiting.

Lots of lines already and has lost that innocent look of her early 20s but don’t we all.  Those of you who are younger still - well you will deal with it too! 

Raphael’s conduct in trying to con that girl into marriage if convenience was pretty despicable if true. 

Can’t imagine how the Kerchers family feels. 

Media in the USA is incredibly quiet on this appeal - nothing like the constant blaring media attention of the first trial and Hellman appeal. 

Please send any more links or translations as to what’s going on.  Thanks.

An idle thought but the founder of modern nursing, Florence Nightingale, was named after the city, so can we hope that Nencini’s court will also keep uppermost in their deliberations a sense of deep compassion for the real victim? If they just do that it should be enough to get the big picture; what they musn’t do is get sidetracked by the “victim” theatrics from the deadly duo and their defence teams.

Here’s a nice piece on Florence Nightingale:

http://www.countryjoe.com/nightingale/

If CNN is correct and Raphael goes to jail after this trial but Amanda remains free in the USA, and Rudy is out on work basis, I really wonder what will emerge in the next phase? 

That is, if they are convicted again.  Seems impossible one if them won’t say more.

Thank you very much for the tweets, Machiavelli.  I don’t mean any offense to the good journalists who’ve been covering this case, but yours are always more detailed and picking up on essential points.

Does anyone know whether the verdict will be streamed somewhere?

The onus in this appeal was on the defendants to prove their innocence—they failed miserably, of course.

Another hour or so ...

A usual Patrick Lumumba had some frank words ready about the treacherous Knox on his arrival at the court today.

He was kind to employ her, though she lacked a work permit and he could have got into legal trouble.  Then she proved a major pest in his bar, hitting on customers and showing off brashly while moving few drinks which was what she was paid for.

Then out of the blue she accused him of murder and never ever recanted. That cost her three years in prison but Patrick still lost lost his business which would have earned him millions over the years.

Now Knox who made record-breaking blood money (illegal under Italian law) is so arrogant and cheap that she wont even pay him the $50,000 the Supreme Court awarded in damages.  Today on arrival Patrick is quoted as saying the following:

http://www.ilmondo.it/top10/2014-01-30/meredith-sollecito-aula-sentenza-amanda-scrive-ai-kercher_313753.shtml

” Amanda is a wolf in sheep’s clothing.” So said Patrick Lumumba, the 44 year old Congolese initially blamed by Amanda Knox for the murder of Meredith Kercher.” When the murder of Meredith haappened Knox worked for me for about a month” he recalled in Florence, pending the ruling of the appeal process on charges against Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

” But I quickly realized that she was not professional on the job as a waitress. She was often left by customers to wait and when she had served continued talking… Amanda did not go immediately to the next customer , but remained to chat long with the same one… “
.
” So I was not surprised at her behavior on the night of the murder. She is a very sly girl and knew how to deal with the judges…  Amanda has never apologized personally and I am still waiting for compensation for the defamation.”

Sollecito definitely seems to be attempting in Italy to come out of this looking the better person. Today even Patrick thinks so.

http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/News/Cronaca/Omicidio-Meredith-Lumumba-Sollecito-mi-sembra-un-bravo-ragazzo_321168471596.html

(Adnkronos) “Raffaele has always given me the impression of a nice guy” said Patrick Lumumba, a civil party in the trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher after being wrongly accused by Amanda Knox, speaking to reporters in Florence. Lumumba, pending the ruling, before leaving the courtroom [for the breal] shook hands with Raffaele Sollecito.

Hi, Peter, sad world we live in:

“Lumumba, pending the ruling, before leaving the courtroom [for the break] shook hands with Raffaele Sollecito.”

Sollecito in all likelihood is a bloody murderer, and I don’t think Lumumba is showing a lot of character here.

Patrick is dead wrong about Sollecito.  At the very beginning, I thought that maybe he was just a weird guy with social problems who did something terrible because his judgment was severely impaired by drugs.

Had his Defense stuck with that image and not allowed him to say anything, maybe some people would still believe that.

However, after reading his book and seeing him in action for the past few years, I realized that Sollecito is self-entitled, spoiled, arrogant, and cruel - possibly a sadist.

He places himself above other people and he’s shown no evidence that he cares about, empathizes with, or respects anyone.  He probably enjoyed taking part in Meredith’s murder.

While he might not have wronged Patrick directly, he would not have hesitated to do it if it benefited him personally.  It was big of Patrick to show kindness, but hopefully he’s under no illusion that Sollecito is a nice guy.

So Lumumba, who must know the facts of this trial inside out, decides to give an accolade to the “nice guy” who’s murdered Meredith? What a a cretin

You do have to wonder about someone so enthralled with murder weapons like special knives hanging in the bedroom or violent porn comics etc as a hobby.  But it doesn’t prove anything. 

I think a representative of the defense team should be required to be present at any DNA testing so that they can’t claim later that it was contaminated or that incorrect procedures were followed.  What an incredible waste of everyone’s time and energy that controversy has caused.  Plus just will always give that opportunity to the defense. 

If it’s truly incorrectly done then it should be clearly stated before a trial.  Maybe I’m simplifying or missing something.

@Bjorn

...to prove their innocence…

Provability is a weaker notion than truth. There exists truth (and falsehoods) that are proved to be not provable (and vice-versa). I don’t know any examples though but ask a mathematician…

Same goes for evidence. Evidence is an observable that must be tested for “genuineness”, i.e., not faked. It must not be interpreted at the microlevel like our good friend in Florence, Dalla Vedova, is asking. If you overinterpret any evidence you are likely to introduce bias. Therefore no evidence must be ignored or rejected because it does not fit your pet theory (as Mr Dalla Vedova is demanding). Any evidence that does not fit your theory must be explained away.

According to Mr Dalla Vedova, the bra clasp does not fit his theory and he has explained this as contamination.  This picture has to be compared with the alternative available pictures.

The jury is supposed to evaluate all the scenarios and select the best picture. At this point they are supposed to consider what is being called, infamously, “reasonable doubt”. As explained by others (vide supra), this is applied at the last level, when we need to select the most likely picture of what actually happened.

It is the job of the defense and the prosecutor to offer good pictures based on available evidences. The problem is that no picture fits all the evidences and we often decide based on the strength of the evidences that are rejected. These are residuals that will haunt juries in future…

The job of the defense is to make a picture that appear to embrace all the evidences. That is an art and I therefore say that the truth depends on the price you pay your lawyers.

The worst move was to give publicity by using a PR agent.

It is slightly to the aside from the main suspense today…but I don’t think one should be too hard on Patrick Lumumba.

He is after all a victim, and has suffered considerably. He may still feel bullied and afraid because of his experiences, understandably.

He will need people to think well of him. He may be very afraid the defamation ‘has stuck’.

And he has to live in Italy, today in near proximity to the Sollecitos, with all their social standing - even though brought into disrepute, they were an Italian family of influence.

Hi, Chami, agreed on all points, what I find ridiculous in the defense strategy is the exacerbation of “reasonable doubt” - it has been proven above and beyond any *reasonable* doubt that these idiots committed murder.

The defense wants us to believe this is not sufficient, that we have to prove with *absolute* certainty they actually did it, which is of course impossible, most people do not know with absolute certainty what they did yesterday.

Fortunately there is evidence of various kinds, including circumstantial, and continuously lying for no reason is a powerful indicator of guilt.

Patrick is dead wrong about Sollecito…

Possible but unlikely.

If AK had not met RS, would RS be involved in the crime? I don’t know the answer, but perhaps NO.

Perhaps AK would have met another sicko and went ahead with the master plan. I think papa is right on this.

I still think that Guede is most unfortunate to encounter these two “young kids”.

Could AK have carried out this ALONE? I do not know but I think that the answer is NO.

What is the capital- how she could manipulate to young adults? Again, I do not know the answer.

I have always suggested that RS should have been investigated in far greater detail.

Viviana says “I realized that Sollecito is self-entitled, spoiled, arrogant, and cruel- possibly a sadist” and I agree.

Would RS have carried out such a ghastly crime ALONE? I do not know the answer but perhaps the answer is “PROBABLY no” but I am not at all sure.

I have given RS one extra mark just because he attended the trial.

Finally I respect whatever Patrick has done because he simply knows far better than me. He was there while I was not. I respect his judgement. Whether I agree with his judgement is a different matter altogether.

[Due to the just-announced extension of jury deliberations the conjecture here is moved unchanged to the top post]

@SeekingUnderstanding

One thing we are missing is the personal factor that is impossible to quantify. He has seen both of them, encountered and heard their lawyers, seen the situation from very close quarters and perhaps knows many more things that we are simply not privy to.

Usually lawyers do not want their clients to talk too much in public. However, for both AK and RS, it is the clients that dictate the terms.

Lots of things will slowly come out once AK and RS are safely taken care of. I believe so because there are too many loose ends.

Another plea for clemency re Lumumba:
‘He seems like a nice guy’
Patrick obviously is less fluent in English, from the rest of his reported speech.
He may have meant ‘he seems like a nice guy on the surface’,
Or,
‘He has been nice and courteous to me, in contrast to the terrible treatment from Knox’,
Or,
‘He has been pleasant enough to me,(whether or not I think he was complicit) and I don’t want to pick an issue with him, as Knox has done me far more harm’,
Or,
‘I just want all this to be over, it’s been such a terrible nightmare, and my instinct is just to try and make peace wherever I can.’

Patrick knew Meredith, and will be mourning her still, no doubt.
He has been unfairly treated through this, and I wish him all the best.

Yes, chami, I agree (our posts crossed)... The truth will out, eventually. We will need to be patient.
Whatever occurs today, the truth is still the truth. All that alters is how much it is out in the open, and acknowledged.

Patrick is probably thinking himself and knife boy have both suffered at the hands of Knox so they have something in common, as Seeking mentioned, he has live close to the Sollecito clan, still, should not have given the handshake.

@Peter

“Neither court seems to have settled on a convincing reason for wht the big knife was brought down from Sollecito’s house”.

True. Shame that the various courts weren’t aware of AK’s recent tale of the hazing in Seattle. There’s hazing, and there’s hazing gone wrong.

Hi Urbanist

“Patrick is probably thinking himself and knife boy have both suffered at the hands of Knox so they have something in common, as Seeking mentioned, he has live close to the Sollecito clan, still, should not have given the handshake.”

Not unlikely. Also Guede has long signaled that Knox was the one to drop them all in it.

She could not have done more foolish things than not showing up today and continuing to lie and lie from a distance.

@Pete

I’m glad that Crini has assigned AK as the prime mover.

It would seem that all the psychology would substantiate this.

Perhaps Massei was too kind? (They should have been grateful).

He said he kept thinking about his own daughters, and he was loathe to believe that these young people could have acted so.

Thank you, Machiavelli, for your tweets. Your reporting seems much more complete and accurate than even the journalists’. I truly appreciate it.

Pete, thanks for the picture up top. It’s a beautiful picture with the blue tones and shows the seriousness of Judge Massei and what this appeal is all about.

To Pete, Skep, Yummi, Clander, Machine, et al.: Whatever happens today, you have exposed the truth that the U.S. media ignored. Thank you.

Praying for the Kerchers right now. RIP Meredith.

Odysseus: Thank you for the comment/link on Florence Nightingale. My mother was also named Florence, and visited there once with my father.

So Patrik Lumumba thinks Sollecito “seems a nice guy”?

The judge that finally sentenced Bundy to death, for a string of gruesome female murders, said:

““It is ordered that you be put to death by a current of electricity, that current be passed through your body until you are dead. Take care of yourself, young man. I say that to you sincerely; take care of yourself, please. It is an utter tragedy for this court to see such a total waste of humanity as I’ve experienced in this courtroom. You’re a bright young man. You’d have made a good lawyer, and I would have loved to have you practice in front of me, but you went another way, partner. Take care of yourself. I don’t feel any animosity toward you. I want you to know that. Once again, take care of yourself.”

So much for appearances!

If the Bundy Judge could be so misplaced in his personal views about Bundy, what hope that Patrik can see, any better, through another psychopath, Sollecito?

If the Bundy judge had allowed himself to express animosity, apart from being unprofessional, he would have lessened or perhaps harmed himself by allowing such a feeling.

Likewise, Patrick may need, for his own sake, to be able to be civil towards the Sollecitos.

If I met the Sollecitos I would be civil towards them. I also would not express hatred towards Amanda. (I’m not sure I would shake hands, but customs in other countries carry a different weight…)

That is partly professional training. But also it would demean the self to sink to the level of a perpetrator.

It doesn’t necessarily imply that one doesn’t recognize the psychopathy.

Patrick has committed no crime or wrong doing - he has been wronged against, and has not yet had justice nor reparation himself.

Hi Earthling

My grandmother was also named Florence (more common name years ago). Florence Nightingale certainly embodied the best feminine values (in my view). Amanda Obknoxious would likely disagree, that’s why she would never be admitted to the Royal College of Nursing (cough, in a million years)!

My mother was also Florence. A beautiful name, and a very special place.

SeekingUnderstanding.

I am all for rehabilitation of a criminal, but he/she would need to admit the crime first and show remorse.

Not much sign of that from either Knox or Sollecito.

I would not be civil to the Sollecitos, if I met them. The son is a liar and a murderer, in my view, and his family has done all it can to shield him from justice.

Knox, her family and friends also make me feel nauseous - I do not express hate for them, but I am disgusted with their lies and perversion of the facts.

Poor Meredith is the victim here - we need not shed too many tears for the social standing of the Knoxs and the Sollecitos.

It seems that Sollecito is off like a rabbit. He has disappeared (or been disappeared, knowing his family connections).

http://www.umbria24.it/firenze-raffaele-e-in-aula-per-lultima-udienza-in-serata-la-sentenza-segui-la-diretta/257548.html

SeekingUnderstanding

The Bundy Judge indeed should not have shown animosity toward Bundy, but neither should he have spoken about him, as a convicted murderer, in such an inappropriate way.

Likewise Lumumba about Sollecito.

Dear Mealer,

Please do not misunderstand me…I shed no tears whatsoever regarding behaviour that appalls me.

I do feel passionate about the evil and wrong doing, which is why I have been involved to do whatsoever I can for the Kerchers and other victims in this grim and cruel scenario.

It is not even to do with any desire for rehabilitation. I am more concerned to protect society.

I just do not believe anything can ever be achieved by descending to the same values and behaviour of a criminal mind.

Being civil is an appearance. Perhaps, being English, and the daughter of someone who was a diplomat, it is something I have been conditioned to be and do.

Perhaps some people do say the English are hypercritical, even repressed? We don’t see it that way, I feel, but more that the veneer is, at times, a necessary detachment.

Declaring that the murderer has always seemed to be a nice guy and go shake his hand in court is not what I would call a necessary detachment…but it’s not the main event today anyway

Just chuckling over the Babylon translation about RS’s absence in the article cited on Umbria 24 above:

“Comes the confirmation of the absence of Raffaele reminder in the house at the time of the reading of the judgment. The young Bari, this morning in the house had said that he would come. Then in the afternoon has developed a different conviction and moved away from Florence and his family. It is unclear where be waiting for you the judgment and the destination of his movement is kept schtum.”

I nervously await the verdict—it seems to be taking a very long time—so perhaps I am seeing humor where it, like RS, is not there.

Corriere della Sera has live coverage: http://videochat.corriere.it/index_Reuters01.shtml?1391070298

PMF is down for me too.

@SeekingUnderstanding

The mask of civilization we all put up all (well, almost all) the time sometimes slips off (wardrobe malfunction indeed) and the real “us” shows.

The mask has become almost permanent and we often think that as the real “us”.

But there is a greater point. We do believe the greatness of the civilization we have made for ourselves and we have subjected ourselves to its rules and being civil is part of that.

Being civil is only paying respect to the humanity that we all are expected to carry. The alternative is being the primitive man. Stone age.

Being civil is more than an appearance. It is about our own selves. The other fellow does not matter.

I hope I have not offended anyone.

I totally agree with Seeking Understanding about Patrick.

The Guardian has provided a link to the wiki website:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/30/meredith-kercher-murder-knox-and-sollecito-appeal-verdicts-due-live

Yes, chami, I think we are coming from the same place.  It is an appearance - a presentation if you like.

But appearance matters. We do show ourselves through it, as well as our sincerity or otherwise, and many other things and values.

For example it matters whether we wash, and care whether people are offended by our smell.

Some people are allergic to perfumes we may like. Some ways of dress upset others. There are many ‘codes’ of conduct contained within social habits of speech and dress.

By paying attention to such things we demonstrate our values…to what extent we think it is important to be respectful and considerate, to be tolerant of differences, and to treat others in the way we would wish to be treated ourselves.

As you say, this is actually not about the other, but about our own conduct and values.

It was noted in one of the news reports that the ‘judge and jury were (apart from one) dressed somberly.’ This gives a message.

There is also a psychological angle. Many people who are disturbed, or even with serious disorders, have substantial problems in relating to others. In particular, they can often be aroused to aggressive, blaming, insulting, destructive behaviour - far too easily.

People who already feel guilty and grossly inadequate can be very defensive and too easily ‘provoked’ (by something trivial and irrelevant), no matter how reasonable one might be.

Being civil and non-violent (genuinely) therefore has another aspect to it.

In counselling,when people express aggression and anger (sometimes transferred towards the therapist), we are taught to try and help them ‘just be’ with this aspect of themselves. The therapist needs to remain calm and not take it personally. It is a useful life skill, I find.

I do not know, and indeed we probably do not know, the ins and outs of what Patrick really thinks and feels, nor why. It is not the over-riding issue today.

From the comments below the Guardian article:

“While we are waiting for the verdicts, it would be a good time to read – or re-read – Simon Hattenstone’s article from early last year about his long correspondence with Amanda Knox, who he says is a fan of Weekend magazine’s fashion and recipe pages.

Knox said she felt strange writing to a journalist. She once had ambitions about becoming one herself, but had lost faith in the media because of how she had been treated after her arrest. This was the time when the press caricature of “Foxy Knoxy” was at its height and most reporting had more than a hint of misogyny about it.

There was something childlike and naive about Knox’s letter – the bubble writing, the way she drew the outline of her hands on the paper and said she felt her life was in the hands of others, quoting the Beatles songs Let It Be and Here Comes The Sun. She finished the letter with a quote Io lo so che non sono sola anche quando sono sola – I know I am not alone even when I am alone.

After that, I sent her regular copies of the magazine. She would reply, commenting on articles, telling me what she was up to.

Simon spent the last five days leading up to today’s verdict with Amanda Knox and her friends in Seattle. An edited video of his exclusive access will be on the Guardian website following the verdict, and will be posted at the top of this blog.”

So we will be treated to more Knox drivel.

Is there any reason to be concerned at the length of time this is taking? I remember last time it being late when it was announced and the results were not as we had hoped… I really hope we are not going to be disappointed a second time, this is almost unbearable!

Patiently waiting, Twitter a/cs of BBC Breaking News, Andrea Vogt, Peter in the Bookmarks bar.  Does Machiavelli have Twitter?

The people are back to the court room, almost everyone is sitting. There are many policemen present. I think (or I hope?) it will start soon.

Our thoughts are only for Meredith now.

Verdict in next 15 mins.

live feed

http://videochat.corriere.it/index_Reuters01.shtml?1391070298

Hi sikandar

There is a time delay on that Reuters feed, I think of at least 10 minutes, I dont know why.

The RAIfeed linked-to at the top of the post is in real time.

hi peter,

in india here i can see delay in rai news… corrieretv is live i guess… just heard the bell

Justice is seen to be done .. 28 years

Guilty.

RS passport to be handed over ...

RS to be arrested ... Superb

Awesome 😊

It’s a beautiful day for justice.

Delitto Meredith, il pg: «Trenta anni
di carcere per Amanda e 26 a Raffaele»
AK = 30 years
RS = 26 years
Not long enough but good enough for now!
Rest in Peace Meredith ...

Amazing!

Yes! Isn’t Italian justice wonderful! I’m going to have another glass of wine. Well done everyone.

happy for Kerchers.. rest to meredith. thanks to all who worked behind the scenes.

thanks everyone here for the immense help.

truely satisfying !!!

I wonder how he is going to feel now, sitting in prison while that murderous lowlife carries on with her life on the outside? .. At least for the time being!

By the way, the extra four years for AK is due to her calunnia ...
Justice has seen through the PR and the BS!

Heartstopping that was.  Thank the Lord for Andrea Vogt and Machiavelli plus the live feed.

Yesssssssssssss!  Praise be to all who valiantly sought the truth and justice for Mez and her family!

Oh absolute joy!!

TJMK - take an well-earned bow.

Congratulations, Peter, for facing down the Knox/Sollecito PR bullshit machine.

God bless the Kercher family and RIP Poor Meredith.

I sincerely hope that the police are now on their way to detain knife boy and Obknoxious.

Thank God. That makes me feel a whole lot better.

Hallelujah! praise God forever, there is justice in this earth. Thank you Jesus! I am elated, I am ecstatic. I was watching the live feed from Corriere and seeing Judge Nencini read the verdict but I could understand nothing.

I kept watching the back of Attorney Girgha’s head and the back of Luca Maori’s head to try to decipher their reactions. Girgha started nodding, as if in agreement and I got the most horrible sinking feeling that Florence had decided there wasn’t enough proof and to acquit.

Then I saw Nencini lay down his papers after his difficult duty and the room broke into motion with very reserved behavior from everyone. Caught a brief glimpse of the beautiful Stephanie Kercher, Lyle more subdued, Crini shook their hands, the crowd was milling.

Finally I caught Maresca in the crowd, he turned to speak to some unknown female and a sad look came over his eyes and I thought, “Justice has lost, oh this is horrible.” One last ounce of hope said maybe Maresca and truth had won but that he was careful to not look celebratory in raw triumphalism as he knows the awful toll this verdict does take on two young people and their affiliates. Maresca then moved off still in his black lawyer’s robes with the golden tassles to tend to a cell phone call as the courtroom began to very slowly empty.

Then Corriere live feed went black and I returned to TJMK (hallelujah for this site) and there was The Machine’s comment and others saying Justice had won, passports revoked, 28 years, and other brief comments that said it all… oh I was absolutely thrilled.

Meredith’s cause has been vindicated and the light has arisen shining brighter and bathing Florence in honor.

“It’s a beautiful day for justice”, one said.  YES IT IS!!!

Statement from AK:

Amanda Knox issued the following statement after being found guilty Thursday by the Italian appeals court in the third murder trial:

“First and foremost it must be recognized that there is no consolation for the Kercher family. Their grief over Meredith’s terrible murder will follow them forever. They deserve respect and support.

“I am frightened and saddened by this unjust verdict. Having been found innocent before, I expected better from the Italian justice system. The evidence and accusatory theory do not justify a verdict of guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. Rather, nothing has changed. There has always been a marked lack of evidence. My family and I have suffered greatly from this wrongful persecution.

“This has gotten out of hand. Most troubling is that it was entirely preventable. I beseech those with the knowledge and authority to address and remediate the problems that worked to pervert the course of justice and waste the valuable resources of the system: overzealous and intransigent prosecution, prejudiced and narrow-minded investigation, unwillingness to admit mistake, reliance on unreliable testimony and evidence, character assassination, inconsistent and unfounded accusatory theory, and counterproductive and coercive interrogation techniques that produce false confessions and inaccurate statements.

“Clearly a wrongful conviction is horrific for the wrongfully accused, but it is also terribly bad for the victim, their surviving family, and society.”

Thank you, Peter, and everyone else here who refused to let lies go unchallenged.

Per AK’s Statement: 

The only things that got out of hand were your knife wielding and subsequent overzealous, intransigent, prejudiced, and narrow-minded PR campaign.

It is true that everything was entirely preventable, but you planned it, not prevented it, and when your knife crossed the line you created the world of hurt which you now inhabit.

Your unwillingness to admit your mistake will haunt you and yours forever. So be it. The rest of the world accepts this judgement and is relieved that justice has been served.

By the way, as an assassin you don’t have any character to assassinate, so stop using your inaccurate statements to try to coerce decent people who have character to produce false judicial judgments.

I theorize that you will be having a long conversation with the powers that be about this - let’s see how your accusatory statements go over on the other side.

Thank you, God! Thank you all the fearless souls who have fought here and elsewhere, you know who you are and I will not say your names for fear that I might forget even a single one!

(But I will say this: Peter, you da man, I cannot find words big enough for you, and I don’t have words kind enough for the Kercher family)

Amanda “Toxic Knoxy” deserves every single year she was sentenced to, and more! (no need for further explanation, everybody knows what this murderess is capable of).

Raffaele Sollecito deserves every single year of his punishment for his participation in this horrible murder, and for being an equally tremendous liar. God knows exactly what was it that this imbecile did, but he did do something horrible, we’ll find out eventually, for now I feel good that he’ll be off the streets soon.

Meredith, see you in another life.

GUILTY! GUILTY! GUILTY! Knox and Sollecito defense entered a no spin zone called Florence.

Knox the predator gets bit. She ran her Titanic into an iceberg called Truth. Gotta hurt.

There’s no overturning this verdict. She’s sunk.

Incredible - such a long wait for this moment.

I really think that RS will start to talk more when he faces being in jail while AK is out and about.  But we will see…..

I am glad that I read the verdict here first. Warm thanks to Peter and to you all for your lucid analyses and great efforts over the years. Thinking of Meredith’s family at this time.

The picture here speaks a thousand word:
http://www.komonews.com/news/local/Amanda-Knox-gets-28-years-in-prison-in-3rd-murder-trial-242815781.html

Thank you Peter and everyone here for all the contributions over the years. This was an invaluable source for all of us!

Rest in Peace, Meredith!

And let the healing begin for your beloved family!

Has anyone noticed that ObKnoxious’ new haircut (yesterday) & glasses (small, round, metal) make her look just like RS back when they killed Mez?  Disturbing.

I’d love to hear Seeking Understanding’s psychological take on that.

I am wondering whether AK will now give more interviews? Or the story is now closed?

She can write another book in a far more peaceful setting…

But no more interviews. Please.

Hello all4justice, and everyone.

Am just recovering….

I was quite shocked when I saw the picture of AK in the new look- short hair, glasses, strange hat, incongruous jumper and rough, somewhat male leather jacket.
First I thought how masculinised she was. Then I saw huge anger, and fear, at a frightening level. I saw a person hollow inside - torn apart and strained by the effort of acting out a role,in a mediocre play that she wrote, which is now deemed a failure.
She has lost her youth, has thickened, and something is dawning…life as a party is over.

I had to look twice to see this was really her. And I realized, chillingly, that this one is the real her, and the former AK was the fabricated one, posed and presented for calculated affect.
I think yesterday may have de-stabilized her.
And judging from Curt Knox’s grim expression as she was ‘being moved’,(covered with a blanket) he too is aware of this - and the risks it opens up.

Sollecito, also, in the photo from the court room yesterday, (before the verdict) seemed, belatedly to be realizing that truth does always catch up with you, and responsibility for choices and actions has to come at some point. His face actually showed strong emotion, for a change. The mouth is noticeable in this.

If only this could be the last chapter, or the last act in the play. If only she would know that some silence now is the best way forward! Not least for herself.

But I am grateful that this turbulent Act III has ended well. I was moved by the silence and gravity in the court. It does make one feel there is a God, or an invisible force of Goodness.
And brave Stephanie and Lyle, and their thoughtful words…

“It is not possible to convict a person because it is probable that she is guilty,” Dalla Vedova said. “The penal code does not foresee probability. It foresees certainty.”

“Beyond a reasonable doubt”, the criminal standard, does not mean “certainty”, (although this case comes as close to certainty as one can get, short of a video of the murder).

Also, Dalla Vedova evoked Dante, noting that the Florentine writer reserved the lower circle of hell for those who betrayed trust, as he asserted that police had done to Knox when they held her overnight for questioning without legal representation and without advising her that she was a suspect.

I wonder what level of hell has been set aside for crooked lawyers, like Vedova, who persistently twist the truth to allow murderers off the hook?

The Supreme Court disallowed all the evidence of the police interrogation, carried out between Sollecito admitting Knox was not with him on the evening of Meredith’s murder and Knox signing her 1.45 am confession.

After that, the police offered her legal representation, but did not need to offer it to her when she requested and made her voluntary, written statement at 5am, later on the same morning. She was not under interrogation at that time and she wrote that it was “spontaneous”.

Vedova and all the other fans of the murderous Knox and Sollecito are now deeply wounded and like an animal, are even more dangerous. TJMK must still man the guns and be vigilant in promoting the truth for Meredith.

Finally, I do not know how many of my friends and colleagues on TJMK noticed how much the mainstream media, waiting for the verdict last night, simply parroted the Knox and Sollecito PR version of events as if it were true?

Personally and from now on, I would never again believe a single word that the media says, without independent proof - such as TJMK has honourably and unfailingly provided in this case.

We have a quip about my local newspaper that one should only believe the date on it.

Raffaele Sollecito looked like he was enjoying the moment. He was wearing sunglasses as if he was posing on the beach. Dreadful.

Thank you TJFM site for keeping me informed with ALL the facts.

Meredith Kercher, RIP.

Knox interview has just been played on breakfast tv

Asked how she felt about the guilty verdict and possible return to Italy she replied “they will have to catch me” and then she tried to correct herself with some waffle about going back kicking and screaming

Don’t worry Obknoxious you won’t be kicking and screaming dear…..you will be in handcuffs…..

Thank you thank thank you to all the wonderful people here on TJMK

Thank you to the wonderful people of Italy

Thank you to Mr Peter Quennell

Banged to rights at last

To the Kercher family i send my heartfelt good wishes this morning.

@Mealer
Yes, I have been feeling similar about the media in the future. I now wonder with any significant story just where it is coming from, and whether it is in fact just ‘a story’.
I suspect many journalists are very lazy, and think about speed and attention-grabbing headlines.

The Times and Telegraph here in England are better than previously, though a few PR repeats are appearing. I wonder if the Machine’s and others tweets have made an impact? I think they may.
Interestingly, though, in the 98 comments below the leading article on the case….the ‘most recommended’ are overwhelmingly the ones that recognize the true state of affairs, and provide substantial and serious points to prove it.

A great reversal from earlier in the year.

So what happens now, does Raffy remain free in Italy even though he has has been found guilty twice?.. The translation at the time of the verdict was dreadful with large chucks of information being left out.. Will there be a translation on here of the actual verdict and what it means now the pair of them?

Local Italian reports are that RS was stopped close to the border. His passport has been taken.

I cried last time; i cried this time. No winners, but a step closer to the truth. I hope the Kerchers know that many many people are standing by them.

Main news this morning, knife boy trying to do a runner, didn’t work out too well for him, he was caught near the Austrian border, brilliant.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25978340

Raffaele Sollecito has been picked up by police in a hotel in Carnia, approximately 60 km from the Austrian border. He had to go to police headquarters in Udine for the formalities regarding the seizure of his passport.

Interesting news.

He is quoted as saying that he has already been to Austria and was on his way back. Not that I believe that.

http://www.gazzettino.it/NORDEST/UDINE/raffaele_sollecito_omicidio_meredith_passaporto_udine/notizie/489167.shtml

http://messaggeroveneto.gelocal.it/cronaca/2014/01/31/news/raffaele-sollecito-in-questura-a-udine-1.8574560

http://www.corriere.it/cronache/14_gennaio_31/omicidio-meredith-sollecito-sorpreso-udine-tolto-passaporto-il-divieto-d-espatrio-e5553e54-8a59-11e3-aecc-b2fa07970b97.shtml

http://news.sky.com/story/1204143/kercher-killer-sollecito-held-at-border

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jan/31/raffaele-sollecito-detained-italy-austria-border-reports-amanda-knox

Many Thanks to Peter and to all the contributors on TJMK. It is tremendous that the Hellmann legal crime has been righted and that justice has prevailed. For the Kercher family I hope they find some peace to remember their wonderful Meredith.In particular without any interference whatsover from Knox and Sollecito who were responsible for her murder.
.
Newsnight carried an awful interview with sychophanntic Simon Hatterstone..Knox’slongtime pen pal fan. Where on earth does a convicted murderer get primetime coverage after the verdict to whine on about being “marked”.

There is a problem here of the media following Amanda in Wonderland down the rabbit hole of denial.

Also Amanda’s so called statement saying this has got out of hand and calling for those in “authority” to put it right..is really a shout out to John Kerry to intervene on her behalf. I sincerely hope the Whitehouse reply is a stony silence.

Here is to the whole Kercher family and trusting that this is a further step in finding both Justice for Meredith and to finding the truth of what happened. RIP Meredith.

Been following, just not commenting as my sadness for the Kerchers was too much when Amanda returned to the states. \\

Dropped my car off for service and saw this verdict on the shop tv. Had a hard time refraining from doing a fist pump and shouting hell yeah!

After reading the mindless remarks from the Knox machine for a long time on each and every thread, I am so happy that justice was done.

Italy is a beautiful and amazing country.

RIP Meredith

I am very happy justice has been seen to be done.

We will have to wait for cassation now to make the verdicts definitive.

The truth and justice have triumphed over lies, false public relations spin,mass media manipulation and bribery.

It has taken 7 years to get here but I can wait longer for the cassation confirmation of the verdict.

I hope the courts will be able to enforce yesterdays ruling that Patrick Lumumba is entitled to royalties from Knox’s awful blood money book and indeed the poor Kercher family are due recompense for the ordeal Knox (still continues) to put them through, although I believe they wouldn’t accept anything from her.

Knox of course still continues her cruel campaign against the Kerchers with her strong desire to ‘own’ them, with swipes at them in interviews for various newspapers, namely The Guardian - and it comes as no surprise to me they are giving her the oxygen of publicity in exchange for more filthy lucre.

I never was and never could be a Guardian reader and the article and accompanying video underline a reason why.

On the journey for justice for Meredith Kercher we are now left with the convicted murderers vain attempts to squirm out of the hands of justice, with Sollecito, a self entitled spoiled brat with mummy issues caught by the Italian flying squad on Italy’s north eastern border trying to flee.

Also Amanda Knox showing the world she is an absolutely chillingly cold hearted (and admittedly a previously known stager of false burglary)cruel woman who can’t go anywhere without her mother and will (she says) have to be taken kicking and screaming to face justice.

How things change.

R.I.P. Meredith Kercher.

I’m glad that others share my dismay at the Simon Hatterstone interview; it was painful to watch.

Where next:

Or to next entry Appeal Session #10 Images: The Two Judges And Six Lay Judges Deliver The Guilty Verdict

Or to previous entry Continuing Enormous Strength Of The Evidence Which Defenses Seem To Have Abysmally Failed To Shake