Monday, September 30, 2013
Appeal Session #1 (A) Judges And Lay Judges Address The Biz Of Procedures And Enquiry Scope
Posted by Our Main Posters
Reporters Andrea Vogt and Barbie Nadeau are live-tweeting from court and our main poster Mason2 is periodically reporting
Update #10
Finally for now a commentary on Mason2’s interview with Dr Mignini in the Update #9 just below and how he saw the attack happening.
That as we understand it has always been his humane bedrock position on why the attack on Meredith happened and became so vicious. A hazing with sexual humiliation that at the end of 15 minutes resulted in someone (probably Knox as the other two so clearly resent her) pushing in the knife.
Dr Mignini seems to believe one or other came so close to their confessing something like the above, in exchange for a manslaughter or limited responsibility charge. It is something Meredith’s family might have understood, not the rabid hatred of Meredith explanation that they so feared.
But then early in 2008 the families and lawyers and wannabees started their demonizing of Dr Mignini and falsely claiming that he had called the attack “satanic” which he never did. Not once. Five years after Guede’s trial in late 2008, where they too could have gone for the short form trial and reduced sentences, here we all still are.
Millions of dollars and hundreds of defamed people and some soured international relations later. And the perps maybe looking at a total of 30 years and other trials to come.
The “profiler” John Douglas in his wildly inaccurate but influential account wrongly used the term “satanic” a dozen times. Nina Burleigh in her silly book was another who babbled on about religion as a root cause of the prosecution.
But as Knox and Sollecito themselves have both written, the reason the attack was initiated was possibly quite simple. An argument over noise, or drugs in the house, or Meredith missing her rent money, or Meredith replacing Amanda at Le Chic.
Add to the mix drugs (maybe the deadly skunk marijuana), and/or mental illness, and/or group dynamics. And poor Meredith died. How right the prosecution at trial was.
Update #9
This is Mason2 reporting again from the courtroom.
First day over and the tweets tell it all. This new Judge Nencini is determined to keep things in check. The defence had a whole lot of requests this morning. Giulia Buongiorno has to impress Dr Sollecito to earn her fee to pay for her pant suit.
I did feel a bit sorry for him today, he looks a refined man and is a very polite person.
The new DNA found on the knife during the 1st Appeal will be tested, and the Court will hear from Aviello on Friday.
I will be there and with my own wi fi. Many journalists are not going to attend this friday and will probably wait until or if Raffaele arrives or just come for the finale.
Am very pleased to say i had the first interview with Patrick Lumbumba and his lawyer Carlo Pacelli. Patrick is sweet and has a gorgeous face and smile.
I shook his hand and said, Patrick i wish you the very best, but i have only one question and it is DID AMANDA PAY YOU THE MONEY SHE WAS ORDERED TO PAY and he said no i did not receive a cent.
He was later interviewed by the media outside, and they asked, what would you say to Amanda right now, and he replied IF YOU ARE INNOCENT YOU WOULD GET ON A PLANE AND BE PRESENT HERE.
Then i saw my opportunity to speak to Dr Mignini the Prosecutor from the original trial in 2009. He was gracious enough to give me about 10 minutes of his time, and he was hoping for the testing of the new dna on the knife.
He is also convinced that these young people probably would never commit a crime like this on their own. Certainly Rudy and even Raff. But the combination of the drugs and the promise of sex with Amanda and a cocktail of drugs and alcohol…
In these circumstances, he believes people are capable of anything.
Speaking with Giulio Gori from Il Fiorentino, he wanted to know my opinion of guilty or not guilty, and i said you first, and he said he had doubts. He meant like many of the young ones here they wonder why they would do it.
Even Dr Mignini told me his 2 female assistants, who also worked on the Supreme Court matter and support him, privately have their doubts,
I will be back in Court on friday. Meanwhile i am going to act like a tourist and eat at Il Latini and look at the sights here.
Update #8
Court is back is session and Judge Nencini announces the scope of the appeal, with a proviso that he may add more items later.
Judge Nencini rejects most of what the defenses requested earlier, and there seems little to bring them comfort. He agrees to the prosecution’s requests to have Aviello testify again (see update #4; so that was not Dalla Vedova, who must surely not like this) and to re-examine the large knife.
Having Aviello testify again (already scheduled for this Friday) was probably unavoidable, as the cutting-off of his testimony by Judge Hellmann in 2011 was a real red flag to Cassation that something nefarious may have been going on. They sharply commented on it.
Remember Aviello was Sollecito’s witness intended to prove that the 2 or 3 accepted by Cassation as having committed the attack on Meredith were actually his missing brother and one other. After he was released from prison near Genoa he moved to Ferrara, where he is safely back in prison for killing a dog as an extortion threat.
The Knox and Sollecito teams sure set themselves a trap. They seem to have a real knack for not doing their due diligence. Bongiorno threatened to sue him for claiming bribes were offered by the Sollecitos, but never did. Oddly, Raffaele in his book said he sent Aviello an embroidered handkerchief. Seems doubtful that that would buy Aviello’s silence.
This is huge for the prosecution. On Friday we could see more proof emerge that in 2011 something nefarious WAS going on.
Update #7
So far no joy for the absent Amanda Knox. Judge Nencini at the start of the proceedings remarked in sharp language on her absence and that of Sollecito from the court. If he prefers them to be present (the presence of Sollecito is promised by his father for end-October) then arrest warrants could be issued.
Under the US and UK systems they would have been required to appear personally, and locked up again if they remained on the lam. Patrick Lumumba’s fiery lawyer protested their absence, arguing that this is a clear indicator of guilt.
Amanda Knox has yet another contempt of court problem. She is a deadbeat. She has not paid the E24,000 in damages awarded to Patrick and due since last March, when Cassation confirmed it. And yet she says publicly that she has been paying many other bills out of her blood-money.
Update #6
Lawyer TomM, a main poster here, makes a skeptical observation on PMF about a request from Sollecito lawyer Giulia Bongiorno.
Re “@BLNadeau: Back to bongiorno, rebuttal round.. Says she wants to take knife apart for further tests”. Is she nuts? There is no upside for the defense in this request; the possibilities range from finding nothing to finding a sufficient quantity of material to do multiple tests to both identify it as blood and have clear DNA profiles. In the latter case, I see no credible way of the defense explaining this as resulting from contamination.
Update #5
The judges and lay judges move into private session to decide on the requests made for scope.
Remember Italian lay judges must all have diplomas or degrees (one of these lay judges is in fact a judge by profession) and they will have read a great deal already, including the Micheli and Massei Reports and the recent report of the Supreme Court which annulled Hellmann (who is now also under investigation).
Through the lead judge they can ask questions and are expected to pursue lines of enquiry. As Alan Dershowitz and other American lawyers have noted, Italian juries leave in the dust many or most American juries.
Update #4
Showing how they are clutching at straws, a Knox lawyer today asked to hear more from witness Aviello. Really?! Aviello was the colorful mafioso witness that at the Hellmann appeal in 2011 claimed that the Sollecito family offered bribes to inmates in his prison for false testimony.
Aviello is already on trial for perjury in the same courthouse in Florence (busy place; Frank Sforza will go on trial there too) and Aviello could inflict real damage on the Sollecto lawyers, especially Bongiorno, if bribes are again asserted.
Maybe this signals the long-anticipated Knox-Sollecito separation. Sollecito before and at the 2009 trial undercut Knox in many small ways, and to try to stop this, Knox wrote him love-letters, and finally made a public appeal (denied) to talk privately with him.
Update #3
Barbie Nadeau reports that Judge Nencini is tough as nails on the lawyers, and has a deep baritone voice like a singer. You can see his image and a brief history in this post.
The foolishly dishonest and disrespectful Knox & Sollecito media campaigns seem to have assurred them one of the toughest judges and one of the toughest prosecutors in Italy. Both have special protected status, as they each conduct trials against the mafia.
And pouring gasoline on the bonfire, the tin-eared media campaigns have organized for wednesday in the US Congress this catastrophe. No wonder Amanda Knox is too chilled to appear in Florence, and Sollecito is sitting in a known mafia hideout in the Caribbean.
Update #2
Nothing seems encouraging here for the defenses. As the Supreme Court instructed, the appeal’s scope will be similar to that of a US or UK appeal. No fishing expedition, no CSI Effect. The only difference will be in the presence of lay judges, in effect a jury, of 6 women and 2 men.
Andrea Vogt reports that Prosecutor Crini is requesting that additional DNA testing be done on the large knife using newer, more sensitive instrumentation. The first test of that same sample by Dr Stefanoni showed a strong correlation with the DNA of Meredith. The DNA consultancy at the annulled Hellmann appeal which tried to discredit that is considered by the Supreme Court to have been deliberately flawed and today the prosecutor confirmed that.
Andrea Vogt also reports that Prosecutor Crini cautioned against re-hearing any evidence just because there are controversial interpretations of trial facts. He emphasized that the Supreme Court did not discredit any of the evidence, the Hellmann annullment happened because of poor jurisprudence and very flawed logic.
Update #1
The first report from the court by our main poster Mason2:
Hello, I am writing during the break as no wifi for my computer. I will fix this by end of the week.
The Court opened with the President reading the case overview. All the events of the night of the murder of Meredith, and then the reasoning of the Supreme Court.
The media is there, i spoke to the Fox news reporter and The Daily Telegraph London.
The most gracious and kind to me were the two reporters from Porta a Porta. Dr Vittoriana Abate and her colleague. I noticed her file was marked in very large letters in pink MEREDITH.
First a letter was read by Avv Maresca from the Kercher family.
The reading of the case file took a long time.
Who is present is Dr Sollecito who has said Raff will attend later probably 23 - 24 October dates. He is very polite to the media.
Patrick Lamumba and his lawyer Carlo Pacelli arrived about 11.30am and took their place behind Avv, Maresca for the Kercher family.
The arguments commence with Bongiorno in an extremely forceful and very strong voice at times almost shouting at the Judges her argument.
First point was the little bra clasp. She said she believed that the Supreme Court was mistaken and fell down on this point.
She asked for a fresh examination of the clasp as she says there is other dna on it and she spent a lot of time going over what she described as the failure of the Scientific Police to examine the crime scene and preserve it.
She spent a lot of time arguing about the 46 days it was lying in the room. It was not collected from its original place as photos proved. She is trying to create reasonable doubt.
Avv Maori also addressed the court.
Then spoke Avv Della Vedova who argued very strongly but not like Bongiorno i heard him start with the long long process and referred to poor Amanda. He was conveying what this process is doing to her.
He hopes and prays that this time she will be acquitted once again and that will be the end of it.
Ghiriga was speaking just before lunch break and reiterating their argument for Amanda to be found not guilty.
I counted 5 lady judges on the panel.
It was possible to tweet this morning @kgadalof
Dear Ms Bongiorno, the only reason it took 46 days was because Dr Stefanoni and her people were waiting for the defenses to arrange to come along. They delayed and delayed - and now you complain about her?!!
Dear Dr Dalla Vedova: the only reason the process is taking so long is because defense lawyers played dirty tricks to get the terrific Judge Chiari replaced by the incompetent Judge Hellmann who bent the annulled appeal.
First post today
We will have our own more detailed reports from the court later in the day. More images to come also.
First tweets from Andrea Vogt (read from the bottom up):
* #amandaknox trial suspended for 30 minutes, prosecution to make arguments at 13:15.
* #amandaknox atty CDV: That this trial could go on “infinitely” goes against constitutional rights. Can a person be on trial for life?
* Atty Maori: Sollecito defense wants forensic tests done on Kercher’s pillow and rock used to break window. #amandaknox
* Bongiorno: Crime scene conditions prohibited proper evidence gathering. Bra clasp should be thrown out. #amandaknox
* Atty Bongiorno for Sollecito defense: the reliable evidence points to Rudy Guede: “The assassin always leaves a trace.”
* Court rules Lumumba may stay and be a part of #amandaknox appeal trial.
* Patrick Lumumba speaking to press: #amandaknox should be here, but she is afraid, because she knows she has a responsibility.
Posted by Our Main Posters on 09/30/13 at 01:45 PM in Appeals 2009-2015, Florence 2014+, Hoaxers from 2007, John Douglas
Comments
More images of the scene earlier outside the court have been added below.
I had to laugh at Dalla Vedova saying this process should not go on forever. If the Hellmann appeal had not been bent by those same lawyers dealing judges to get the dud Hellmann instead of the excellent Chiari, it all would have been over at the Cassation hearing last March. They have only themselves to blame.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 09/30/13 at 02:45 PM | #
If ‘the assassin always leaves a trace’..... Where does this place the traces left by Knox and Sollicito?
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 09/30/13 at 03:10 PM | #
LATEST FROM ANDREA VOGT TWITTER:
#amandaknox prosecutor Crini requesting that additional DNA testing be done on knife using newer, more sensitive instrumentation
Posted by True North on 09/30/13 at 03:37 PM | #
“You may charge me with murder—or want of sense—
 (We are all of us weak at times):
But the slightest approach to a false pretence
 Was never among my crimes!
Posted by chami on 09/30/13 at 04:40 PM | #
Omigosh, Mason2, Omigosh. I’m eating this up. Good to see Maresca looking strong, Doctor Sollecito in another $10,000 suit and Bongiorno goes blonder, pounding on the bra clasp issue. Her loud voice won’t remove any DNA. Ghirgha playing the father protector role, handing off some of that to Carlo D. Vedova who seems to have polished up his act since Perugia, words of hope and prayers for it to all be over.
Can’t miss one guy standing like a Vulcan as symbol of what Amanda can do when pushed, Pat Lumumba. He said once, “I am walking proof Amanda is a liar.”
Whew, what a crowd of paparazzi outside but inside the brand new courtroom which seems more antiseptic than the old Perugia lodgings (which I liked the coziness of) the atmosphere seems to be quieter, more cerebral and orderly. That’s good.
So Sollecito defense want pillow re-analyzed.
Mason2, thanks a bunch. What a whirlwind.
Posted by Hopeful on 09/30/13 at 04:56 PM | #
LATEST FROM ANDREA VOGT TWITTER:
Kercher attny Maresca to court: Defence requests are just the same old arguements specially remixed for you. #amandaknox
Posted by True North on 09/30/13 at 05:03 PM | #
LATEST FROM ANDREA VOGT TWITTER:
Judge in #amandaknox appeal is denying defence requests to reopen debate on a number of points.
Posted by True North on 09/30/13 at 07:31 PM | #
Given how the hearing has gone, the outcome (today decision) looks rather predictable, at least very likely. The court will probably accept only the two requests shared by the prosecution, the only ones admissible. That is a new test on trace I of the knife, and to complete the hearing of Aviello’s testimony.
Posted by Yummi on 09/30/13 at 07:39 PM | #
It’s been a terrible day for the defence teams. The most important news is Judge Nencini’s decision to allow a new test on the remaining DNA on the blade of Sollecito’s kitchen knife. If it is Meredith’s DNA - and I think it is - it will be a game changer in more ways than one. It will be make it much easier to extradite Knox and it will change the media and public’s perception of the case in America.
I’m pleased that the Caribinieri RIS will be carrying out the new test. They are independent of the Scientific Police.
Posted by The Machine on 09/30/13 at 08:08 PM | #
“That is a new test on trace I of the knife, and to complete the hearing of Aviello’s testimony.”
Poor kids! They have to grow up all by themselves and PR is not helping.
Posted by chami on 09/30/13 at 08:09 PM | #
Wow incredible, I can’t wait to see what the US Media distorts about all this.
I’m a bit confused - what if this knife 3rd DNA trace is attributable to RS or AK which just means they used it in the kitchen? How will that be useful? Or it might be attributable to his cleaning lady or someone else. It’s only going to help if it is actually MK’s.
Also how would they prove Aviello was bribed, as he is a known liar and killer so how can his testimony be believed by either side?
Why would they not request retest poor Meredith’s clothing to see if other DNA traces are there on the sweatshirt, along with the pillow? Seems a good idea. There must be other traces of DNA somewhere.
Posted by believing on 09/30/13 at 08:40 PM | #
Hi believing,
Sollecito’s kitchen knife was used to stab Meredith, so I think it’s her DNA on the blade, especially as this trace is in close proximity to where Meredith’s DNA was found by Dr. Stefanoni. I doubt whether Knox and Sollecito actually touched the blade.
Posted by The Machine on 09/30/13 at 09:01 PM | #
...“He meant like many of the young ones here they wonder why they would do it.”
It is very difficult to comprehend that it would have been possible if one is thinking from the point of view of a reasoning, conscious mind.
That is precisely why one could argue that psychology DOES have a role to play in this case, especially the psychology that examines the deep unconscious mind, and the very early influences upon it - the first 2 , non-verbal, years in particular.
An unconscious motive, by definition, would have been hidden from the conscious mind of the perpetrator(s) - and could indeed have taken themselves by surprise too.
The strength of unconscious envy and rage, hidden from ‘normal’ view, should not be underestimated.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 09/30/13 at 09:33 PM | #
AMANDA KNOX RETRIAL: JUDGE ALLOWS NEW DNA TEST ON ALLEGED MURDER WEAPON
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/30/amanda-knox-retrial-dna-test-murder-weapon
Posted by True North on 09/30/13 at 09:57 PM | #
Further the requests from both defence lawyers was a lot. They wanted to recall Quintavalle, and friend of Meridith Amy Frost and throw out the bra clasp dna evidence, the pillow reexamined, reexamine Raffy’s computer and Meredith’s phone records for a couple of calls not completed around 10pm. The Maori wanted to reexamine the neighbourhood CCTV and recall Aviello.
The Judges have reserved the decision on the staged breakin and the knife
Posted by Mason2. on 09/30/13 at 10:18 PM | #
Excellent onsite reporting Mason2!
Thank you for this.
Posted by True North on 09/30/13 at 10:42 PM | #
Hi Mason2,
I’d like to echo what others have said above and add that you are a bright, shining star for Meredith Kercher in the courtroom; the fact you are so knowledgeable about this case and have chosen to do this is quite awesome. You have many “virtual” friends out here who look forward to your reports on Twitter and here at TJMK.
Keep up the great work and a HUGE thanks to you.
Tara
Posted by Tara on 09/30/13 at 11:36 PM | #
The Guardian today:
“Earlier in the day, Giulia Bongiorno, Sollecito’s defence lawyer, told the court there was “not a trace” of Knox in the room in which Kercher was found dead.
“How is it possible to find enormous quantities of traces of Guede and not a trace of Amanda?” she asked the court.”
Answer: Somebody wiped Amanda’s traces away.
As previously commented, if Knox’s lamp was in Meredith’s room, but there was “...not a trace of Amanda…” on that lamp, then that lamp must have been effectively wiped-clean by someone, consistent with the selective clean-ups elsewhere in the murder-scene.
Posted by Cardiol MD on 09/30/13 at 11:45 PM | #
Hi cardiol
I thought that there was no prints in the room since it had been wiped down.Am I wrong here? or what? If I’m right then that is also admission of guilt.
Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 10/01/13 at 12:14 AM | #
Today feels like a real turning point, strongs words from Patrick, they ring so true, great work Mason. Thoughts very much with the Kercher family today, what they have had to endure over the last 6 years is beyond comprehension, justice for Meredith and her family is on the way.
Posted by Urbanist on 10/01/13 at 12:27 AM | #
Hi, Graham,
I’m with you. The Fact of the clean-ups is a Key-Fact; Guede is a most implausible cleaner-upper of the selective degree undertaken!
After the clean-ups only Guede’s “traces” remain?
Methinks Bongiorno doth protest too much!
Who is left to execute such a selective, but flawed, clean-up?
Posted by Cardiol MD on 10/01/13 at 12:46 AM | #
Guede left no hairs, no saliva, no sweat, no blood, and no other bodily fluid anywhere at the scene of the crime except in the bathroom by the front door. His footprints headed straight out the front door.
Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito left plenty of DNA evidence and footprints all over the crime scene. Here is one of the really big problems for Bongiorno and her client, along with the bra clasp.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/01/13 at 01:49 AM | #
JOURNALIST ANDREA VOGT’S COMPREHENSIVE UPDATE REPORTING FROM FLORENCE COURTROOM TODAY!
http://thefreelancedesk.com/front_featured/amanda-knox-appeal-2/
Posted by True North on 10/01/13 at 02:02 AM | #
Thanks to Mason2 for on-the-spot tweeting and news updates. It’s fantastic to have one of our posters right their as the appeal develops.
I hope you will be back on Friday for mafioso Aviello’s appearance. Please keep an eye on Bongiorno!
Posted by Kermit on 10/01/13 at 02:26 AM | #
@Peter Quennell and Mason2, thanks for updates and reports from the courtroom, the culmination of years of following this case. Just WOW! you got to interview Mignini. He came so close to getting Amanda to confess, as Peter reminds us. I’m glad Mignini is happy about the knife re-test. Surely it will only vindicate Stefanoni.
@Mason2, I feel the same way you do about Dr. Sollecito: a good man who has a foolish son causing him grief. Happens all the time.
Aviello on Friday in center ring. The circus continues.
Raffaele talked slow as molasses on Today Show interview with Ms. Guthrie. When asked if he agreed with and understood Amanda’s decision not to appear at her appeal, he didn’t sound happy. He avoided agreeing with her, claimed it was her decision.
I wonder if Raffaele isn’t avoiding the courtroom in Florence now in case at the last minute he decides to drop Amanda in it by changing his plea at the last second to guilty. I don’t think he could do it with Amanda in the room. He couldn’t be sure if his lying girlfriend would attend the appeal or not, so he played it safe by staying away himself.
Amanda keeps harping on how she learned from his book (another lie, she knew long before the book because Raf said from the beginning to Perugia police that she had ASKED him to lie for her) that he was offered a deal to free himself or get lesser charges in exchange for giving her up.
She compliments and commends him for that in a ploy to keep his loyalty. She repeats it a lot lately in interviews, telling Raf: “that says a lot about a person”. That’s Amanda’s way of making a loud clear cry for mercy begging Raffaele to keep covering for her to the end, playing to his pride and “honour”. She is such a manipulator, but so is he for his own ends. He wants to be used, well, he did at first.
He is now feeling the price of keeping his word to her. He didn’t seem to mind as long as daddy did all the paying, but now it’s coming out of his pocket and Amanda’s not the broke little gal he once longed to bedazzle with family money and rescue, nor his jail buddy like she was before. The tide has turned, and now his family is broke while the Knox family is sitting on big dollars that they refuse to pay to Lumumba after ruining him. Must gall Raf to realize he is less lucky than Lumumba, who was also scalded by trying to “help” Amanda, but escaped by a minor miracle.
A recent photo taken as this appeal began showed Amanda wearing a black jacket with colorful slashes on it in Seattle rain. She had on her intellectual eyeglasses. Above was a headline, The Smiling Assassin. Reminded me of crisscrossed lines white on black which opened the old TV show, “Thriller”, the lines streaking across her black jacket.
The only thrill is the thought of the truth finally winning (Knox says she thinks she’s going to win) and Meredith’s killers being escorted back to serve time where they belong. I hope the knife reveals unequivocal proof if it was used in the killing. As the Kerchers say clearly, they want the truth.
Stephanie’s heartfelt letter to the court explaining her parents’ weak health and their absence from Florence at this time showed the Kercher wisdom and discretion once again.
Posted by Hopeful on 10/01/13 at 04:02 AM | #
I looked up contumaci in my Google translate and it gave me contumacious.
I wrote to my Italian based friend [fluent Italian] and she confirmed the Italian word meant absence but did not go further, nor less.
My Mac dictionary has this for contumacious:
contumacious |ËŒkänt(y)əˈmÄ sh É™s|
adjective archaic or Law
(esp. of a defendant’s behavior) stubbornly or willfully disobedient to authority.
DERIVATIVES
contumaciously adverb
ORIGIN late 16th cent.: from Latin contumax, contumac- (perhaps from con- ‘with’ + tumere ‘to swell’ ) + -ious .
By my reckoning, it does not mean :defendant[s] but is a description of the act of not being there in defiance.
If the defiance part is so, then that explains the Judge’s attitude about contempt.
If that is so, then AK and RS have got off to a poor start. Yet against that is the letter of the law which allows them to do this.
Posted by James Higham on 10/01/13 at 06:32 AM | #
Am disgusted this morning to go online and read the news from the USA. Fox news reporter had the best spot of the media in court and she was dismissive of me when i said hello and asked where she was from and she asked me the same. When i said am from True Justice she looked me up and down and turned around in her swivel chair.
Now on Fox news is a most distorted report on the background of the case and Judge Hearvey on live tv saying Amanda has served 4 years careful not to say for criminal lying and then says its a farce and fraud and fiction. And how her life is destroyed.
He claims to the american viewers that the government would never extradite Amanda. Having been in court yesterday to hear such a report is an outrage.
The Knox clan is extremely dangerous and i hope the contributors here are right and that Raf might come back home and together with his father go to the police and get it off his chest and move forward with the healing process. Not only for himself but for the family of Meredith.
I can see now that the Knox clan will go hell for leather in the media to whip up public opinion to fight extradition. All this will make sure Amanda will live in a mental wilderness for as long as she denies her responsibility.
Posted by Mason2. on 10/01/13 at 06:47 AM | #
On the judge wanting to see the photo of RS’s fingernails as regards the bra clasp:
My interpretation of this is that he wants to determine contamination or not of the DNA on the bra clasp. It does seem a strange way to determine it.
If this is so, then it could mean some strange decisions along the way. Might be a bumpy ride.
Then again, it might be nothing. Letter of the law etc.
Posted by James Higham on 10/01/13 at 06:55 AM | #
Mason2 - just missed your comment - from many people, thanks for what you are doing there.
Posted by James Higham on 10/01/13 at 06:57 AM | #
Mason2, thanks for being there and for your detailed and informative reporting! Enjoy Florence!
And Pete, your description of motive in Update #10 seems to come the closest of any I’ve ever read to the truth.
All for Meredith!
Posted by Earthling on 10/01/13 at 09:10 AM | #
Mason2
May I add my thanks also. I’m sorry you had to have the experience meeting the Fox journalist…it is very disappointing.
The architecture of Bramante and Brunelleschi in Florence are among my favourite in the world.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/01/13 at 11:48 AM | #
Re: Andrea Vogt article and
“Sollecito’s lawyers had argued that since he bites his nails very short it would have been difficult to manage the bra clasp where his DNA was found”
.....which, to me, is a possible reason for cutting the clasp off.
Hold the clasp firmly in one hand and cut the clasp off using a sharp pocket knife with the other hand. The clasp would have to have been held quite firmly.
Posted by Miles on 10/01/13 at 12:26 PM | #
Aviello, Sfarzo, RS, Guede, ....
Explosive!
Posted by Helder Licht on 10/01/13 at 12:30 PM | #
@Miles
Personally I see it as a non-argument. I have to keep my nails very short for playing the piano, and it makes zero difference to my dexterity. Also, it is documented that the bra clasp was removed later. This would have made a difference.
Perhaps the short bitten nails even explain why so much of the DNA, presumably from the fingertips?, did arrive on the bra clasp.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/01/13 at 12:34 PM | #
@SeekingUnderstanding
Especially, if he had returned to the cottage! One imagines much gnashing of teeth and biting of fingernails prior to the return.
Posted by starsdad on 10/01/13 at 02:09 PM | #
Two of the defense hypocrisies in court yesterday rebutted in these comments now inserted at the end of Update #1 (Mason2’s first report).
******
Dear Ms Bongiorno, the only reason it took 46 days was because Dr Stefanoni and her people were waiting for the defenses to arrange to come along. They delayed and delayed - and now you complain about her?!!
Dear Dr Dalla Vedova: the only reason the process is taking so long is because defense lawyers played dirty tricks to get the terrific Judge Chiari replaced by the incompetent Judge Hellmann who bent the annulled appeal.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/01/13 at 04:02 PM | #
@Mason2,
Don’t feel bad. The Fox reporter has acted the way she was expected to act. Is it really surprising?
The Knox clan is acting the same way a mob behaves. The mob thinks it is invincible and takes no responsibility for its action and behaves as if it is above the law. You take out the individuals one at a time and you will get a different picture. The collective behavior is VERY dangerous.
Italian parents are fundamentally more protective of their children by nature. I do not think Konx’s parents are acting in the same way- they are more worried about the damage to their super ego. Of course this is my personal opinion. They are not really trying to AK, they are just trying to protect themselves (looks funny, right?).
I think the start is good. Enjoy Florence (I have never been but have an invitation pending for long time)- and the nice weather.
Posted by chami on 10/01/13 at 05:32 PM | #
@Peter
If the boy cum kid is a habitual nail biter, that makes more sense for easy DNA transfer. Saliva is an excellent and copious source of DNA and much might get transferred to finger tips.
Just touching some random object with your hand won’t likely transfer any DNA (unless there is considerable friction and skin rubbing) but if you drink a cup of cappuccino, you will leave a lot of DNA on cup rims. The same way RS left his DNA on the cigarette butts.
The defense is actually very helpful, just my personal opinion.
Posted by chami on 10/01/13 at 06:05 PM | #
..that’s what I thought ,chami. The skin would probably be disturbed and softened with saliva at the fingertips.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/01/13 at 06:33 PM | #
Hi Mason2,
Who was the Fox News reporter? I’ll check to see how balanced and accurate her reports are.
Posted by The Machine on 10/01/13 at 07:32 PM | #
Update.
The publicity agent for Sollecito is now saying that the “congressional” briefing is cancelled. She’s instead promoting media interviews with the pro-defense “experts.”
Before any politician speaks out on this case, I encourage them to read the underlying court documents to understand the full scope of the evidence against the defendants. Because this is a situation where only one side (pro-defense allies) are giving interviews in the U.S., the reporting has tended to be lopsided.
Fortunately, many Americans are paying close attention to the case through careful scrutiny of the court documents and court testimony. Given this, it would be a mistake for anyone less informed about the case to wade in without having done the work to understand why legal experts, including Alan Dershowitz of Harvard, have said the evidence to support a guilty verdict is strong.
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/Tips_For_The_Media_1_Getting_Up_To_Speed_/
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/Tips_For_The_Media_2_in_fact_knox_extradition/
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/Tips_For_The_Media_3_in_fact_theres_far_more_evidence/
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/tips_for_the_media_4_in_fact_guede_absolutely_couldnt/
Posted by Media Watcher on 10/01/13 at 08:30 PM | #
Journalist Barbie Nadeau summarizes day 1 of the Appellate Court proceeding:
http://www.cnn.com/2013/10/01/opinion/italy-knox-day-one-latza-nadeau/
Posted by Media Watcher on 10/01/13 at 08:59 PM | #
Hang tough, Mason2. That Fox reporter jerk missed a great opportunity to pick your brains for the facts. What a wealth of info you could have imparted. Her loss. Keep your chin up, because chami is right, the press pack mentality and the Mellox mob mentality are fully at work. Protect yourself, form alliances, use super discernment before approaching anybody to talk if they seem to have a gang with them. Protect yourself at night especially, and emotionally too. One thing my family did learn from Seventh Day Adventist school my daughter attended: never go with a mob to do evil. Never attach yourself to a mob (even for positive events). It destroys individual restraint and tends toward chaos.
HLN show with Dr. Drew and his “Behavior Bureau” took a flying leap at Knox last night. His eyes for lies expert tried to kick a little sense into the too-kind Dr. Drew who felt Knox wasn’t given any breaks and said he had sympathy for her. His expert on lies and body language analyzed Knox’s gulp and long delay in answering loaded questions. This expert on liars said she saw definite signs of duplicity in Knox’s Diane Sawyer interview. She recalled the question about “is there something you’re not telling police?” and of course the head-nod Yes when asked if Amanda had something to do with Kercher’s death. (of course Knox’s mouth was saying a quivering “no” to that question but it was a lie, her nerves are fried. In fact, Dr. Drew and the behavior bureau cautioned that Knox might be fragile enough to commit suicide.)
The show’s sympathy was based mostly on seeing Knox as an underfed dog with a broken spirit in a few bleak interviews where she sat on a rock by the sea and talked to a female reporter about how she cried so hard and was so sad and so angry when she first returned home to Seattle, how she wanted to be the old Amanda that her parents wanted but wasn’t as “chirpy”. For truth’s sake it was good that one speaker on Dr. Drew’s panel cautioned them against bleeding heart syndrome when she brought them back to reality about the callous cartwheel behavior and smooching in police station. The program ended in a draw, nothing was determined.
Mason2, chin up. Thank you for attending for TJMK.
Posted by Hopeful on 10/01/13 at 09:07 PM | #
Contributing legal analyst to CNN Paul Callan clearly articulates why the U.S. SHOULD honor its extradition treaty with Italy in the Knox case. Video is available from Nadeau link above.
Here’s his bio: http://www.ckbblaw.com/att_pcallan.html
Posted by Media Watcher on 10/01/13 at 09:08 PM | #
Apologies for returning to this again…but how many women ‘unclasp their bra’ with their fingernails? I don’t , - in fact they’d get in the way.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/01/13 at 09:18 PM | #
I don’t use nails. Not possible. Two hands using thumbs too.
P.s. I bite my nails. They’re short.
Posted by TruthWillOut on 10/01/13 at 09:41 PM | #
Thank you, mason2, for your dedication in reporting. I envy you having spoken face to face both with Patrick and Dr Mignini.
Posted by Stilicho on 10/01/13 at 10:21 PM | #
Nothing like a bit of regulation Fox BS to put a dampner on your day….having said that, media miracles do happen, the Dail Fail finally published one of my comments stating the pair are ‘both GUILTY’. Public response most pleasing with the majority of readers agreeing, keep those green arrows coming people. Back to my debate with the clueless Ms.Moore, who is still blabbering on that the PR campaign doesn’t exist. Roll on Friday.
Posted by Urbanist on 10/01/13 at 11:34 PM | #
@Media Watcher
Yes, Paul Callan is impressive. Intelligent, level-headed, not playing to the gallery and carefully not pre-empting the sovereign decision of the Italian court. “Urbane” comes to mind (look it up Curt, Edda, Chris, Bruce, et al…)
Why is he so alone? For example why is this level of intelligence so very difficult for the dribbling, Neanderthal,low-IQ numbskulls who constitute the Knox entourage? It seems some of them are happy to denigrate a whole country and withhold their filthy lucre (as if these low-lifes ever had any) by refusing to travel to Italy in the future.To which of course the Italian reply can only be, “can we have that promise in writing”?
Posted by Odysseus on 10/01/13 at 11:42 PM | #
@ Mason2 : WOW ! THANK YOU very much for the updates from the Courthouse in Florence !
@ Peter and Posters : THANK YOU ALL for the updates here ... very much appreciate it !
Posted by MissMarple on 10/02/13 at 01:04 AM | #
@ Mason2 :
“Am disgusted this morning to go online and read the news from the USA. Fox news reporter had the best spot of the media in court and she was dismissive of me when i said hello and asked where she was from and she asked me the same. When i said am from True Justice she looked me up and down and turned around in her swivel chair.”
Oh Mason2, that was absolutely RUDE of that reporter ! But I am not surprised by the despicable behavior of the US news media ... they absolutely disgust me as well !
I am PROUD of everyone here at TRUE JUSTICE FOR MEREDITH KERCHER !
And, I am PROUD to be here !
And TRUE JUSTICE for MEREDITH is just around the corner !
Posted by MissMarple on 10/02/13 at 01:11 AM | #
Thank you so much everyone. More to come. the us media has the attention span of an insect anyway.
Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 10/02/13 at 01:51 AM | #
@ The Machine. Am enjoying Florence and the weather is nice. About the Fox news reporter she did not give her name just said am from fox news. She was with someone. She spoke italian.
I also said hello to another journalist and asked him where he was from and he said the Daily Telegraph. I said yes i read that online sometimes. Then i said its a pity no one is doing any investigative journalism these days and he turned away.
Dr Vittoriana Abate from Porta Porta was very kind and i had the sense she believes Amanda and Raff are guilty.
To me the few reporters who i did speak with the young ones have doubts and said so and the others are just do a job. They have no passion and don’t give a damn about Meredith or the details of the case.
I don’t care if people don’t like me i am not doing this for ratings or money or popularity i am doing it because i believe in it.
If it’s true Amanda’s lawyers have arranged for many interviews via skype and satellite talk programmes in Italy and the UK to saturate the media with her mantra of i was wrongfully convicted and served 4 years. I just wish just one reporter would break out and ask her why she has not paid Patrick.
She claims to have paid everyone her parents her lawyers her co author her beautician etc.,
Posted by Mason2. on 10/02/13 at 10:45 AM | #
@mason2
Thankyou again, for standing up for principle and honesty, and also for Meredith and her memory.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/02/13 at 11:14 AM | #
@Mason2.
Thank you once again.Looking forward to your reports. Thankfully the court has focused on clearing up the unfinished business with Aviello.He is a weird charcacter. Are there any witness statements from his prison pals that can confirm that he was bribed to lie to the court?
I have been reading here about Aviello..Peter has posted that the fallout from his being induced to lie can cause serious damage to the credibility of the defence. It seems that Mignini & Comodi interviewed him..He is under protection (I think) so the video of this video is not available.However is there any transcript.? Could that interview be relevant evidence? Will Aviello be on the stand for cross examination.
Thank you and the best of luck.
Posted by Olliebear on 10/02/13 at 12:22 PM | #
I just don’t get the finger-photo significance. It can’t possibly be an attempt to prove anything about the bra clasp. Every woman who wears one knows you don’t use fingernails to unhook one.
I could understand the prosecution using this to show he tried unsuccessfully to unhook it and that’s why it was cut, but the defence?
Posted by Eodril on 10/02/13 at 12:57 PM | #
Links to good tips for any media staffers looking for facts to back up a rethink are added to Media Watcher’s post on 10/01/13 at 01:30 PM.
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/Tips_For_The_Media_1_Getting_Up_To_Speed_/
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/Tips_For_The_Media_2_in_fact_knox_extradition/
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/Tips_For_The_Media_3_in_fact_theres_far_more_evidence/
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/tips_for_the_media_4_in_fact_guede_absolutely_couldnt/
Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/02/13 at 02:33 PM | #
Hi Mason2,
I am a little late but thank you for going to court on our behalf. Will you be there on Friday and for the other appeal dates?
Interesting outcomes. I do wonder whether Aviello will be any help to anyone though.
I really hope that the extra trace on the knife proves to be Meredith’s blood as that should settle things once and for all. I wonder when the tests will be done and how soon the results will be released.
Posted by thundering on 10/02/13 at 03:51 PM | #
I have often wondered about the significance of the bra clasp being cut off. How many real rapists cut off a bra with a knife? Could that be something that was in one of RS porn books? Don’t you think it is a bit odd? Especially if done after the fact.
Posted by believing on 10/02/13 at 08:45 PM | #
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