Monday, January 06, 2014
Curious Parallels Between Scott Peterson And Amanda “I Am Not A Psychopath” Knox
Posted by giustizia
[Above: Laci Peterson and Meredith Kercher, the victims in the two cruel crimes]
1. The Violent Deaths Of Laci Peterson and Meredith Kercher
Laci Peterson was soon to give birth in California in December of 2002. On Christmas Eve, her husband Scott reported her missing. In April of the following year, her body and the body of her unborn son Connor were discovered in the San Francisco Bay.
Five years later, in Italy, on 2 November 2007, foreign study student Amanda Knox was at her rental home with her Italian lover Raffaele Sollecito in Perugia, Italy, when the postal police arrived early one morning to return some cell phones traced to her flatmates; the phones had been found dumped in a nearby garden.
Shortly after, the shocking discovery was made that her flat mate Meredith Kercher had been murdered.
2. Parallels Between Knox and Peterson In Their Personalities, Crimes And Court Cases
There is a number of striking parallels between the behaviors of Amanda Knox and Scott Peterson and their alleged crimes and convictions.
The horrific murders of two beautiful young women (one almost at the end of the full-term pregnancy of her first child) unleashed in each case a maelstrom of publicity rarely seen in search of the murderer.
When arrests were made, there also came the stunning revelation in each case that the accused was well-known to the victim ““ in Laci’s case, it was her husband, Scott Peterson; in Meredith’s case, it was her roommate, Amanda Knox.
Ultimately, three people were arrested for the murder of Meredith (as we know, the fourth person arrested, Patrick Lumumba, falsely accused by Knox as Meredith’s murderer, was released when his solid alibi was proven). Of the three people arrested for the murder of Meredith Kercher, evidence suggested to prosecutors that Amanda Knox was the instigator of the crime.
In each trial, the defendant presented a seemingly normal and middle-class appearance. Neither defendant had a significant history of violence or widely-obvious mental illness. Their families insist on their innocence.
Yet both were convicted of brutal murders (and both now fight their convictions on appeal).
Knox and Peterson were each described by casual acquaintances, neighbors and friends as nice, regular people.
Ann Bird, Peterson’s half-sister, described him as being “charismatic, charming, courteous, polite.” On Dateline NBC television, a friend of Amanda Knox described her as being “generous, kind, genuine, optimistic, bubbly. Pretty much all the good words that you can find in a dictionary, she was.”
But they proved superficial assessments that in fact really only scratched the surface.
3. Reckless Odd Behavior And Lies By Amanda Knox
Amanda Knox had been cited and she had received a fine (a sentence which could have been more severe) for disturbing the peace and throwing rocks at a party in Seattle shortly before her departure to Italy.
Knox abruptly and without clear reason dropped a much-sought-after internship in Berlin, Germany, before arriving in Italy.
She posted a vignette on Facebook about a sexual liaison she had with a stranger, a middle-aged man, while on a train in Italy.
Her roommate Meredith had become increasingly disenchanted with the American flatmate who brought home different men without warning. “So she’s [Meredith] waking up in the morning and there’s someone making tea. And it’s, who are you again?” commented Meredith’s friend Brittany Murphy on the subject of Meredith’s unease at the strangers Knox brought to their rented Italian home.
Richard Owen, the Italy correspondent of the London Times in Italy, who has written multiple stories on the case, stated that Knox brought home “people who Meredith Kercher distrusted. Didn’t like the look of. It got to the point where she actually confronted Amanda about this.”
And Amanda Knox’s behavior after the Meredith’s murdered body was found in their rental home was more than atypical for someone who had their flatmate killed in such a horrific fashion in such close proximity.
- “As she put them on she swiveled her hips, pulled a face and said ‘hop la’ - I thought it was very unusual behavior and my suspicions against her were raised.” (Edgardo Giobbi, a police forensic scientist, testifying in court, describing Knox’s behavior just hours after the murder, after he handed Knox a pair of shoe-covers to prevent contaminating the evidence during a search of the house. Sky News, UK, May 30, 2009.)
- “While I was [at the police station] I found Amanda’s behavior very strange. She had no emotion while everyone else was upset. I remember one thing that really upset me. [Meredith’s friend] Natalie said, ‘I hope she wasn’t in too much pain.’ Amanda said, ‘What do you think? She fucking bled to death.’ At that point no one had told us how Meredith died.” (Robyn Butterworth, a friend of Kercher’s, testifying in court. London Evening Standard, Feb. 13, 2009.)
- “Their behavior at the police station seemed to me really inappropriate ... They sat opposite each other, Amanda put her feet up on Raffaele’s legs and made faces at him. Everyone cried except Amanda and Raffaele. I never saw them crying. They were kissing each other.” (Amy Frost, a friend of Meredith’s and a student at the University for Foreigners in Perugia at the time, testifying in court. The Independent, London, Feb. 14, 2009.)
- “My daughter was a Leeds student with Meredith in Perugia. They went out together on Halloween. When Amanda Knox was asked how she felt on 2 November, she said: “Shit happens”, which contrasts rather sharply with the contrived way she addressed the Italian court about “my friend Meredith”. (Marc Rivalland, in a letter to the editor of the Observer commenting on the Knox case. The Guardian, UK, 12/13/2009.)
- “They came into the shop at about 7 p.m. and were there for about 20 minutes. She bought a camisole and G-string. I heard her tell him that “˜Afterwards I’m going to take you home and put this on so we can have wild sex together.” (Store owner Carlo Maria Scotto di Rinaldi’s testimony in court about Knox and Sollecito’s behavior in his store, taped on closed-circuit TV.)
- “Knox and Sollecito were seen laughing as they hold up various G-strings. In one still shot taken from the footage, Raffaele is standing behind Amanda with his hands on her hips and his groin pressed into her. It was the same day as the candle light vigil memorial for Meredith, a few days after her murder.” (Excerpt from the book Angel Face by Barbie Nadeau.)
Perhaps the most controversial claim in the Knox trial was Knox’s accusation of Patrick Lumumba as the murderer of Meredith Kercher. Lumumba was placed under arrest and jailed for two weeks, until his solid alibi set him free.
Knox, who said nothing to help him during the two weeks Lumumba was incarcerated, changed her story after he was freed. She then claimed she was coerced by the police into making confusing statements. Knox’s entourage have made charges of human rights violations and anti-Americanism against the Italian justice system, though to date the U.S. government has refused to become involved.
- “He’s bad. He did it. He killed her”¦It was him, it was him, he was crazy, he killed her.” (Amanda Knox’s statements, according to police at the police station, accusing Patrick Lumumba of murdering Meredith Kercher. The Daily Telegraph, UK, March 6, March 21, 2009)
- “She was angry I was firing her and wanted revenge. By the end, she hated me. But I don’t even think she’s evil. To be evil you have to have a soul. Amanda doesn’t. She’s empty, dead inside. She’s the ultimate actress, able to switch her emotions on and off in an instant. I don’t believe a word she says. Everything that comes out of her mouth is a lie. But those lies have stained me forever.” (Patrick Lumumba, bar owner in Perugia and Knox’s boss. Daily Mail, UK, November 25, 2007)
4. Reckless Odd Behavior And Lies By Scott Petersen
Scott Peterson had all the appearances of an upwardly mobile middle-class white-collar worker. He was a salesman with a pretty wife and a baby on the way, and they owned a nice home in Modesto, California.
His friends and family described him as charismatic and friendly. But under the surface was a lifestyle filled with lies and mistresses.
Scott Peterson had hooked up with a mistress, Amber Frey, in November of 2002, leaving his pregnant wife home alone during the holiday season to see Amber Frey, with excuses of business meetings.
Peterson told Amber Frey that he was a widow, and also that he was traveling in France when he was actually in California - two of many false claims Peterson made to her.
- “I’m near the Eiffel Tower. The New Year’s celebration is unreal. The crowd is huge.” (Scott Peterson, from a taped telephone conversation to his mistress Amber Frey, telling her he is in Paris, when he is really in Modesto, California, about to attend a candle-light vigil for his missing wife. Dateline, NBC, 1/4/2005)
Shortly after Laci Peterson was reported missing, that candle light vigil was held for Laci. It was on New Year’s Eve.
- ”˜Three witnesses testified that Peterson’s behavior at the candle-light vigil seemed inappropriate for a worried husband. One woman said that he showed no emotion during the service and was grinning as he “socialized” with friends afterwards.’ (From The Murder of Laci Peterson, TrueTV.com)
The jurors were shown a photo of the grinning Peterson at the vigil at the trial as evidence. He called his mistress before and after the vigil ceremony, while Laci’s distraught family members tried to cope with the situation of their missing relative.
- “Scott came in with a great big smile on his face, laughing, it was just another day in paradise for Scott, another day that he had to go through the motions,” said one juror, Mike Belmessieri. “Scott had no emotion on his face. Scott was being Scott.” (Juror of the Scott Peterson Trial, commenting on his unusually cool demeanor in court. New York Times, March 17. 2005)
Shades of Amanda…
- “The cartwheels? This is Amanda just being Amanda. As her friends would say, it’s an Amanda thing.” (Edda Mellas, commenting on Knox turning cartwheels at the police station. The Guardian, UK, June 27. 2009)
- “I couldn’t help but think how cool and calm Amanda was. Meredith’s other friends were devastated and I was upset, but Amanda was as cool as anything and completely emotionless. Her eyes didn’t seem to show any sadness, and I remember wondering if she could have been involved.” (Giacomo Silenzi, Meredith’s Italian boyfriend who lived in the apartment downstairs from the murder. Metro.co.uk, November 18, 2007)
5. Parallels In Forensic Evidence
In both cases, there were no eye witnesses or “smoking gun.”
In Scott Peterson’s case, the ONLY piece of hard evidence was a single strand of Laci’s hair, found on pliers in Scott’s boat, which the defense charged as being contaminated evidence.
This and all rest of the evidence at his trial was circumstantial. Nobody witnessed any deed.
Both the circumstantial and forensic evidence in the Knox trial were more considerable. Key items of hard evidence included the knife found in Sollecito’s apartment that had Meredith’s DNA on the tip and Knox’s DNA on the handle, and it was accepted at trial as one of the murder weapons.
A bloody footprint, the size of Knox’s foot, was found on a pillow underneath Meredith’s body. Mixed DNA material of both Knox and Meredith were found in several spots in the house where the murder occurred.
6. Parallels In Strange Coincidences
Laci and Connor’s bodies were found in the water in the bay area of San Francisco. Scott Peterson happened to own a boat and liked to fish ““ in fact, he said he went fishing on Christmas Eve, the day Laci disappeared, at a location where later the bodies turned up only about 3 miles away.
Meredith was sexually molested, strangled, and ultimately killed by knife stabs. Raffaele Sollecito has a fascination with knives and he owns a large collection. Amanda Knox created and posted a fictitious story about a violent rape on the Internet.
Sollecito posted a photo of himself on the Internet swathed in bandages and holding a large meat cleaver and a jug of a chemical-looking liquid. Knox and Sollecito were the only ones at the house on the day when the police showed up and later discovered Meredith’s body.
The juries in both trials concluded that these factors were more than mere coincidences, and represented incriminating evidence of guilt of the crime.
7. Parallels In How The Families Supported Their Children
Not all convicted murderers have a history of mental disturbance or violence. If there were any red flags regarding Knox’s and Peterson’s behavior, one would not know it from the descriptions provided by their families:
- ”˜Lee Peterson said his son never posed a discipline problem, did not rebel as a teenager and was a perfect baby. He was said even to lose golf games because he did not want to hurt the feelings of his opponents. ‘‘He woke up smiling and went to bed smiling.’’ (Scott Peterson’s father of his son, testifying to the jury after Scott’s guilty verdict but before sentencing. New York Times, December 2, 2004)
- “She was an incredible easy-going kid even from a baby. She was so mellow”¦She loved being read-to, she loved books. As she got a little older she always wanted to be outside - building camps, playing soccer. She never watched a lot of TV - she still doesn’t. She was an excellent student.” (Edda Mellas, commenting on Amanda Knox’s character the week of her guilty verdict. The Sun, UK, December 5, 2009)
8. Parallels In Family And Groupie Websites
Peterson and Knox’s families insist on their innocence. There are family and groupie websites for each convicted murderer. They each proclaim innocence for the guilty, make charges of police incompetence, and make requests for money for the defense cause and legal expenses:
- “Scott Peterson Family Mission Statement: “˜This web-site is a combined effort of our family and our support system. We know Scott is innocent and that he has been unjustly convicted. Our pursuit of justice for Laci, Conner and Scott remains steadfast. We want to keep you informed as to the specifics of the case, the appeal, and related topics. We also want you to know how grateful we are for your prayers and support.’ (From: http://scottpetersonappeal.org/)
- “Amanda Knox - A heartfelt thanks for your support. On behalf of Amanda and her family, we want to thank everyone who has contacted FOA to express their concern and to offer help in the wake of an unjust and unsupportable guilty verdict. We are developing a strategy to raise public awareness of this case and help bring about a reversal of the verdicts against both Amanda and Raffaele. Once it is in place, we will welcome all the help we can get, and we will be in touch with you.” (From http://www.friendsofamanda.org/home_eng.htmleartfelt)
Scott Peterson of course has never managed to get online. Amanda Knox of course runs a jubilant, taunting blog which trashes the memory of the victim and harasses her family - a first in global crime history and a foolish move given the current cold, remorseless rejection of her appeal.. Knox’s blog has a following among others also seemingly unable to succeed in normal ways.
9. Parallels In The Verdicts Jurors Delivered: Guilty As Charged
The jurors in each trial fitted together all the pieces of the puzzle: timelines, witness testimony, cell-phone records, forensic evidence, lack of solid alibis, incriminating lies, and odd behavior of the defendants.
They each concluded after lengthy deliberation that the defendants were guilty of murder.
10. And The NON-Parallels In How The US Media Has Reported Both Cases
Of these two cases, not many people have questioned the jury’s decision in the Scott Peterson trial. He has been sentenced to death via lethal injection, and he is currently incarcerated in San Quentin prison in California.
There are no repeated media interviews of Peterson’s mother in tears, insisting on his innocence and his release from prison. There are no angry declarations from Peterson family that the police, prosecution and legal system abused, railroaded and framed Scott Peterson.
If such media coverage were to exist, it would be widely considered in the US to be extremely upsetting and insulting to Laci’s parents and family and to the memory of the victims Laci and Connor.
Peterson’s media coverage, thankfully, has dissipated. He still pursues an appeals process, possibly to be heard next year by the California Supreme Court.
Amanda Knox’s story plays out very differently. After her arrest, her family hired a public relations team that puts forth a determined effort to change Knox’s image of wild child and murderer and to keep her in the news.
They obviously do not consider their repeated loud public outcries for release of their daughter distressing to Meredith’s parents and family, and they don’t perceive their actions as being disrespectful to the victim, Meredith.
Or of course, as many people suspect, perhaps Knox’s relatives do realize it but they simply don’t care.
11. Parallels In Future Legal Prospects
Imprisoned in Italy, Knox has been sentenced to 26 years in prison. She is now appealing that verdict and sentence for the second time after the first appeal was corrupted. In 2012 Scott Petersen’s lawyers filed the automatic appeal against his death sentence to which he is entitled by California law. He may end up serving life.
Knox’s prospects seemed considerably brighter than Peterson’s when the now-annulled Hellmann appeal of 2011 set her free. Now under the worst scenario she loses her new appeal and may end up serving life.
12. Epilogue ““ Master Manipulators
It is curious that the fervent supporters of Amanda Knox do not crusade for the release of Scott Peterson as well. After all, he was convicted on LESS direct evidence, and also in the midst of a maelstrom of publicity. CNN.com had called the Peterson prosecution case so weak and “unimpressive” that they speculated that he could end up with a “Not Guilty” verdict.
But with the exception of his own family, no one has picked up beating the drum to overturn the jury’s conviction of Peterson. Perhaps it is because Peterson doesn’t fit well the damsel in distress role? More likely, it is because the American public trusted the jury’s assessment of the evidence and trial, as they and the American media usually do, and they feel that the jury delivered a just verdict, and justice to Laci and Connor Peterson.
How is it possible that two “regular” people like Knox and Peterson ended up in jail for horrendous murders? Below is a condensed version from an AP article about the type of personality attributed to Scott Peterson:
It is interesting to note that life transitions are tremendous stresses to a psychopath. Psychopaths also wear “false faces” and are master manipulators. They are the ultimate con artists and they are able to fool even those closest to them.
Peterson’s closest friends “never suspected there was a monster inside Scott’s psyche.
Motive still a question in Peterson case
By the Associated Press
Tuesday, December 21, 2004
REDWOOD CITY, Calif. (AP)””Of all the questions surrounding the Laci Peterson murder case, the one that seemed to be running through practically everyone’s mind was this: If Scott Peterson was so unhappy in his marriage, why didn’t he just get a divorce?Experts on the criminal mind say the answer may lie in what lurked beneath Scott Peterson’s charming veneer “”a psychopathic personality.
“When you say you’re going to get a divorce, everyone knows that it’s a long, tedious process. The psychopath wants the short-term solution,” said San Diego forensic psychologist Reid Meloy.
Peterson, 32, was convicted earlier this month of murdering his eight-months-pregnant wife and the fetus she was carrying, and the jury decided he deserves the death penalty.
Criminal psychologists say Peterson appeared to be a master manipulator who lacked the capacity to feel remorse or consider consequences “”some of the same psychopathic characteristics exhibited by serial killers Ted Bundy and John Wayne Gacy.
Psychopaths “tend to con people very well and they wear false faces,” said former FBI profiler Robert Ressler. “They tend to be able to fool everyone from their families to their friends to society, schools, their community.”
At Peterson’s trial, prosecutors portrayed him as a callous liar who continued to carry on an extramarital affair even as police searched for his wife. They said he killed her to escape marriage and impending fatherhood for the freewheeling single life.
Whether Laci’s pregnancy was the catalyst for Peterson’s plan may never be known. But experts said pregnancy can lead to seismic changes within a relationship.
Pregnancy “represents commitment, fatherhood, another dependent, a lifelong bond ... and all of those things are strongly despised by the psychopath,” Meloy said”¦ pregnancy represents a life transition, and there are stresses around that transition.”
Peterson’s case was made all the more perplexing by the lack of signs that the couple’s marriage was in trouble. Although Peterson had cheated on Laci at least three times, according to defense attorney Mark Geragos, he appeared to family and friends to be a doting husband and father-to-be after Laci became pregnant.
Those closest to the couple said they never suspected there was a monster inside.
Heather Richardson, the maid of honor at the Petersons’ wedding, is still hoping for a plausible explanation to emerge. Perhaps, she said, Peterson suffers from a disorder that has yet to be revealed.
“It would be at least comforting. Then I would realize that the person I knew and loved dearly was there. He was that person and the other person, too,” Richardson said. “So at least part of him was not a lie.”
Here is Amanda Knox in her own words talking about masks “” while taking the stand for the final time at her trial in Italy (CNN, Dec. 3, 2009): “They say that I am calm. I am not calm ... I fear to lose myself, to have the mask of the assassin forced upon me.”
This is an update of my post of 24 July 2010
Posted by giustizia on 01/06/14 at 08:46 PM in Various hypotheses, Various scenarios, Pondering motive, The psychology, Defendants in court, Amanda Knox, The legal followups, US etc related
Comments
Great post. A lot of hard work. As “psychopath” and “sociopath” are generics that are often used, not always too scientifically, to describe a wide array of syndromes, this post by counsellor Seeking Understanding helps to narrow things down with regard to Knox:
All our other psychology and motive posts can be found here: http://www.truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/C698/ We already know that professional books are on the way that will probe further the psyches at work.
Dr Mignini (despite all the demonizing) has said that he always believes the attack on Meredith spiraled out of control, with group dynamics and drugs and grudges playing a big part. In early days there was a certain trusting relationship between himself and Knox which might have led in due course to a limited-responsibility charge.
But the demonizing of Dr Mignini and other professionals by the parents and especially the lawyer Dalla Vedova (as described in Knox’s book) soon took over, Knox’s not-so-latent paranoia came to the fore as we saw on the stand mid 2009, and the requested prison charge became life.
Psychological tests in Capanne in mid 2008 concluded that RS and AK were both bad news and should not be out on the streets. Now our own psychologists and others all seem to suspect that Knox’s mental condition whatever it is is getting decidely worse.
Thanks to foolish and grossly irresponsible parents sending a loose canon to Europe, very bad legal management, and a screwball bandwagon of unqualified wannabes almost from Day One.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 01/07/14 at 05:59 AM | #
Thank you giustizia, a very interesting post.
I wonder if Knox’s dropping of the internship in Berlin and her apparent reluctance to study in Perugia was due to the same psychopathic hatred of commitment as exhibited by Peterson?
My guess is that her continuing studies in Seattle are just for PR, just a mask. If (heaven forbid) she is ever acquitted I think it’s likely she will drop them like a hot brick.
Posted by Odysseus on 01/07/14 at 09:59 AM | #
An interesting article and the parallels between Knox and Petersen are striking.
It is becoming more apparent with time that normal people are now seeing Knox for what she is - a cruel and calculating killer and obviously mentally ill.
The family of Knox must have been covering up this illness since she was a child by dismissing her behaviour as “quirky” and “Amanda being Amanda”. It is irresponsible at best and extremely poor parenting.
How can anyone seeing things in “flashes of blurred images” like she stated she did when she witnessed Patrick Lumumba murder Meredith and throwing her head back and bursting out into sudden loud song while out dining with Meredith and her friends, be regarded as “quirky” or “Amanda being Amanda”?
Maybe the latter is true but only in the context that one knows Amanda is mentally ill and of course there are many other instances of extremely odd behaviour by Amanda Knox that couldn’t escape being noticed by people.
Today and now she is out amongst the general public again, her family cannot supervise her and pull her strings 24hrs a day 7 days a week - she is free to run her mouth and her cold being is being laid bare in the cruelty she is showing with the campaign she is now running against the Kercher family.
Her personal blog is testament to this. Quite frankly and personally I find her blog disgusting on every level.
I am only comforted in the fact that it can only harm Knox herself and dig her in even deeper. Not satisfied to only display a trophy image of Meredith on her blog she then goes on to solicit funds in Merediths name.
Thankfully after having intitially at point blank refused the Kercher family legal representative’s request to remove the donate link (posting that she neither recognised nor trusted him and demanding the Kercher family contact her directly) it has now been removed.
However in a taunting fashion, she has refused to take down the trophy photograph of her victim Meredith.
Alas, the request (and I would wager a legal warning)from the Kercher family lawyer doesn’t seem to have had any other effect on Knox it seems, as she has since stated (in response to a poster who complained that the treatment of the Kercher family on her blog is atrocious) that “the Kercher family are not above criticism”.
This is diabolical coming from someone who is currently appealing a guilty of murder conviction for the murder of their beloved daughter and sister. The public displays of cruelty from Amanda Knox towards the Kercher family will hopefully stop when justice will be done in two weeks time.
Posted by DF2K on 01/07/14 at 10:31 AM | #
Thanks, Giustizia, for this post. The parallels between the two cases are striking.
I agree with you and Odysseus that Knox’s walking out on the job in Berlin is an incident that should have set alarm bells ringing, particularly following on from the fine from the Seattle police. Her behavior in Italy prior to the murder should also have indicated that this was an overseas adventure that was unlikely to end well. If they were paying any attention to her at all,
Knox’s family must have been seriously worried about where she was heading - and no wonder that her mother was panicked to receive an unexpected phone call from her, even one designed to say that nothing is wrong. (Followed half an hour later by a call to say, actually, turns out somebody got murdered.)
It’s clear that Knox was immature, irresponsible and self-centred, although those aren’t qualities that automatically lead to murder. It was when she met up with Sollecito, repressed and depressed, collector of knives, prone to violent sexual fantasies, that Knox’s Perugia sojourn went from bad to worse, with disastrous consequences for her poor roommate.
Peterson sounds like Knox and Sollecito rolled into one psychopathic package.
Posted by FinnMacCool on 01/07/14 at 10:41 AM | #
Thank you guistizia. Also to Pete, above.
It is good to remember, at this point in time, the seriousness of the abnormality underlying this exceptionally cruel crime.
I found this post of relevant interest too - the original is well down in the scrolling! It also has some very perceptive comments - which were made before we had the annulment of the appeal earlier in the year, as well as before ‘the book’ came out.
Insightful comment, Odysseus . Lack of ability to commit also ties in with an inability to delay gratification. Without this ability, (which is true self control), we are unable to settle down to any meaningful learning or study.
@DF2K. I am shocked by your report of AK’s statement re ‘the Kercher family is…..’
If she is unaware of the cruelty of that statement, that is a massive psychological problem; if she is aware of the cruelty within it, this is beyond appalling.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/07/14 at 10:57 AM | #
PS. I also think AK likes to shock. It would be part of the same profile, and there have been indications of this propensity in the past.
In fact she has almost let things out, indiscreetly, because of this - what appears to be taking pleasure in shocking others.
If there ever is to be a confession of the true circumstances of the event, I suspect it will contain an element of revealing because of wanting to shock.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/07/14 at 11:12 AM | #
Hi SeekingUnderstanding,
Unfortunately she did actually state that.
She was also blabbering on about the Kercher family lawyer, so I think she ties what she thinks of him in with the Kerchers.
In other words they are as bad as him because he accuses me of nasty things when I am innocent, honest..
Those stupid Kerchers have been taken in by Maresca’s lies when really they should believe in my innocence is what she is saying (I think).
It is not the first time the Kerchers have been attacked in this way as this has been said on the groupie sites too.
I don’t know if it is still there as I checked before Christmas to see if the donate link had been taken down when I stumbled upon this outrage.
I am surprised nothing has been said in condemnation of this so maybe she has removed it but I am loathe to check as I don’t want to go to her god awful blog.
Posted by DF2K on 01/07/14 at 11:50 AM | #
@DF2K
She should be quiet.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/07/14 at 12:10 PM | #
@ FinnMacool
i find the dynamic between the spiteful Knox and deranged Sollecito very interesting. Is it you opinion that the two meeting caused some kind of catalyst for murderous brutality. Do you believe that had they not met, this may not have occurred. very very interesting.
Thank you
Posted by mollythecat on 01/07/14 at 01:13 PM | #
There is yet something else which I found telling, and that is the constant playing of one chord over and over on the guitar by Knox. This is tantamount to being so self absorbed that she (and others like her) have no clue as even to the existence of anyone else.
Sollecito and Knox are a toxic pair each feeding off each others psychosis. This is why Knox flitted from one sex partner to the other because in her mind they and everyone else, is just placed upon the planet for their own gratification.
I am reminded of convicted killer Jody Arias who said that she couldn’t understand why her prosecutor ‘Juan Martinez’ Did not love her? Then in the same breath wanted him killed.
Psychopaths do not see themselves as being evil because in their sickness others just don’t exist. That is why as soon as it was convenient she chucked Sollicito and moved on to yet another partner.
Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/07/14 at 04:59 PM | #
Hi Molly. Of course it is impossible to know what would have happened in our own or anybody’s life if certain other events had not happened.
But Amanda Knox’s accounts of her own behavior in the weeks and months leading up to the murder make her sound very self-destructive. Her account of walking out on the job in Berlin, together with her contempt for those relatives who had arranged the post for her, shows that something was very seriously wrong with her at that point.
Sollecito also describes himself as a very damaged young man, blaming his family for his mother’s death and refusing to allow them to attend her funeral. He is a loner, collects knives and immerses himself in violent manga. It is a profile that does seem consistent with a solitary potential killer.
It is the combination of the two that created - within a week of their meeting - the situation that would have such disastrous consequences for Meredith Kercher.
Posted by FinnMacCool on 01/07/14 at 05:15 PM | #
Latest from Andrea Vogt Twitter:
” New 2014 court schedule in the #amndaknox case: Sollecito defense Jan 9, rebuttals Jan 16, verdict Jan. 20. “
Posted by True North on 01/07/14 at 05:51 PM | #
Regarding the repetition of one chord in music :In making or composing music there is a guiding rule that the notes have to be going somewhere.
That is, each note is in relationship to the previous and the next, and much of the meaning of the sound comes from our anticipation…‘where is the next note going?’ one might say. The notes are leading us….on a journey, emotional or associative, into a personal meaning.
If they are not going anywhere,(if there is too much repetition), there can be a feeling of being blocked, of stasis, of not finding. It is sad, to say the least, if someone has to impose this monotony onto the hapless listeners.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/07/14 at 06:38 PM | #
seekingUnderstanding
Exactly. You nailed it. Consider someone sitting there hour after hour strumming one chord mindlessly over and over. Mental institutions are full of people who just look at walls which is in the same ball park.
Then along comes Meredith who had talent and was interested in learning and being intelligent and was popular and beautiful. Everything that Knox aspired too but could never be and when faced with this was consumed with jealousy.
Posted by Grahame Rhodes on 01/07/14 at 06:58 PM | #
Fascinating read - it really puts it in perspective, doesn’t it? I think, as Grahame wrote - you’ve nailed it.
Posted by James Higham on 01/07/14 at 07:13 PM | #
@Grahame Rhodes
It is on my mind at the moment as over the holiday I have been composing a piece (on the piano) in memory of my sister, who died still fairly young.
It is quite something to make music that is reflective without being boring! Perhaps if I manage it, I can offer it on here for lost sisters in general…
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/07/14 at 07:33 PM | #
Our mistake is that we are trying to apply ideas, principles and theories that have been developed for normal people under normal conditions. These ideas are alien for these outliers.
They normally wear a mask but sometimes it comes off and we can see their true self. Normally this happens for a very short time but sometimes people notice and are left wondering.
SeekingUnderstanding has said this very nicely. They are feeling blocked, of statis, of not finding. The only outlet is violence.
Their love of music is rather superficial. Both are looking for a outlet of their inner violent self.
I do not know whether I am able to convey properly or not. They are always in a prison- of their own making- and the tragic thing is that they know it.
Posted by chami on 01/07/14 at 07:43 PM | #
Thanks giustizia, and Pete,
Re Pete’s Comment on Knox’s-mental-condition-whatever-it-is:
Pete draws attention to a central distraction in the international dialogue re “mental conditionsâ€.
This dialogue is crudely directed towards a conclusion that Knox’s behaviour is not Knox’s Fault, and that Society should give her “Helpâ€.
IMO, while the name of her “mental condition†is of curiosity value, focusing on it distracts from the fact that society ought to protect itself from people who act as Knox acts.
In the end Mother Nature is the one who allows such people to evolve, and to escape natural de-selection.
Meanwhile, can we afford to permit the Knox’s of our world to remain at liberty?
Posted by Cardiol MD on 01/07/14 at 08:50 PM | #
Yes, you do make a lot of sense, chami, I agree.
Part of the therapeutic process involves looking at our own anger, and aggression and other primal impulses, often long buried in the subconscious, or in the past. It takes courage.
Repression, with denial, will only ever cause these to erupt in another way.
I have always thought that art and music can be used in two ways - either to indulge an (immature) ego, or to attempt to transcend the ego and to find a broader mind, and a better (more mature) Self.
I am a little bemused by the modern tendency to talk of ‘art therapy’ or ‘healing music’....as, in my education, that’s what art and music was! i.e. music was healing, or else it wasn’t really music. More like (childish) self-expression.
Some young people make the mistake of thinking merely self-expression is the same as being creative, - but actually true creative work is Work, and so needs discipline, and study, and effort etc.
There is a lovely saying - I don’t know where it comes from - that says : ‘Discipline is found in freedom, but Freedom is found in discipline.’
Hence if people try to pursue only Freedom, without limits or restraints, (“I am a ‘free spirit’ “), things are bound to become unbalanced or worse. So life can become a prison of their own making.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/07/14 at 09:04 PM | #
@Cardiol
Knox’s behaviour may or may not be her own ‘Fault’ - but the real distraction (which I agree with you is not desirable) is the idea that somehow she doesn’t have to take responsibility for her behaviour, speech and actions.
Of course she does. We all do. That should be unequivocal. And if her family and friends have any conscience or morality they would wish it too.
Whether she can, should, or will receive ‘Help’ is actually another question.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/07/14 at 09:13 PM | #
@chami
As you say, they are outliers at the far end of the distribution.
It seems they have some sort of radar that allows them to home in on, and exploit, our typical, civilised tendency to give others the benefit of the doubt. I suspect this potential vulnerability is exacerbated on an individual level by any lurking insecurity we each may have which leads to a displacement of self-acceptance onto acceptance by others.
Maybe our first impressions actually do raise the red flag when these people come within our orbit but too often cultural and personal factors inhibit full awareness and leave us open for exploitation?
In some strange way perhaps these extreme aliens bring a message to us all. Part of a proper response to the message should certainly be “no mercy when we catch you”. The other part might be to check we’re not too vulnerable. I’ve found there’s nothing like a good cold stare sometimes, even when parts of me say I “should” be more friendly to this strange, ingratiating and over-familiar person.
Posted by Odysseus on 01/07/14 at 09:18 PM | #
@ Grahame,
Good point actually and one that I picked up on. As a long time guitarist myself I was always aware when learning (I am still learning after nearly 30 years of playing) the guitar.
I was I could describe now as shy - with other people in the room. I was frightened that they would hear me and think I was crap! simple as - and even after learning a few ropes I would be in the company a lot of the time with a lot of people a lot more capable of me and I wouldn’t even dare pick up the guitar after they had played, after a while I overcame this of course after someone told me that I have to get myself heard.
Regarding Knox, I have said this before but I cant help thinking of the slick and professionally made music video Meredith appeared in and then contrast that with Amanda Knox inanely strumming a single chord over and over again. It is telling in my opinion of what could possibly be going in the mind of Knox.
Posted by DF2K on 01/07/14 at 09:18 PM | #
Sorry, read that as almost 40 years… and sorry about the having to be heard bit…
Posted by DF2K on 01/07/14 at 09:31 PM | #
@SeekingUnderstanding:
So we agree.
I rest my case.
Amen!
Roll on Jan. 20th!
Posted by Cardiol MD on 01/07/14 at 09:32 PM | #
@Odysseus
Very true. Back to saying (to oneself) “Mu..” again…?
That is, more than anything, to extricate oneself from involvement, or engagement.
When my antennae pick up on an over- familiar, (as you say), manipulative move…I think to myself, “No, I’m not playing. I don’t play games.”
But we do need to learn to protect ourselves when vulnerable (or tired etc).
That’s why, I feel, our home should be a sanctuary, and why I feel so deeply sad, and outraged on Meredith’s behalf, that she wasn’t safe in her own home.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/07/14 at 09:37 PM | #
Thank you. I follow everything here.
Posted by Bettina on 01/07/14 at 10:11 PM | #
@SeekingUnderstanding
Agreed. It is definitely very sad given the importance that Meredith obviously placed on home - the highly symbolic place where you can feel safe and just “be”. (Her flat mate apparently just wanted a transient crash pad to return to at whim while she acted out her madness).
Posted by Odysseus on 01/07/14 at 10:41 PM | #
@DF2K
...you are probably worth hearing then….if you’re still learning!
Smiley, if I knew how to do them…..
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/07/14 at 10:50 PM | #
Just been looking at the Manson murders and the pretty-pretty in them, Leslie van Houten. Found this quite chilling and uncanny:
***
Van Houten did not participate in the Tate killings but went along the next night when the La Biancas were slain in their home. During the penalty phase of her trial she confessed to joining in stabbing Mrs.La Bianca after she was dead.
Asked to explain her actions, she said, “I feel that at that point I had really lost my humanity and I can’t know how far I would have gone. I had no regard for life and no measurement of my limitations.”..
Throughout the [proceedings], Susan and Leslie laughed. All three girls requested and were granted a continuance before entering pleas.
As the trial progressed the girls seemed disinterested. Van Houten spent time drawing, giggling, sometimes making faces at the jury, or as in the case of the youngest male member of the jury, sometimes flirting.
Posted by James Higham on 01/07/14 at 11:00 PM | #
@Cardiol
“Meanwhile, can we afford to permit the Knox’s of our world to remain at liberty?”
Definitely not - so let’s stop this cultural over-indulgence with those who prey on us and get her behind bars asap, before any offspring can wreak havoc!
Posted by Odysseus on 01/07/14 at 11:03 PM | #
@James Higham
She reminds me of someone, give me a moment…it’ll come to me.
Posted by Odysseus on 01/07/14 at 11:09 PM | #
Oh wow, have just read further - look at this, both for parallels and for one huge difference between the two cases:
***
Beginning in the late 1970s Leslie began to come before the parole board to be reviewed for release. In 1979 and 1980 she was reviewed by the board and denied parole.
A group of supporters of Van Houten called “Friends of Leslie” began to campaign for her release. They wrote letters, collected signatures on petitions and appeared on TV, radio and in print to plea for her release.
In a 1980 Los Angeles Times article three members of “Friends of Leslie” were interviewed. One of the comments made during that interview was:
“Her involvement (in the murders) was minimal. When she realized what was happening she ran screaming.”
This statement is ludicrous. In no way, shape or form did Van Houten run “screaming” from the Manson Family.
She knew they were going out to kill the night of the Labianca murder and she made it known she wanted to go.
Once in the house, not only did she stab Mrs. Labianca, but she tried to hide evidence while in the Labianca home, and afterwards at the ranch. She stayed with the Family until she was arrested.
Another statement made by the group during that same interview was: “Her involvement (in the murders) was something she couldn’t prevent or deal with.”
Leslie Van Houten absolutely could have prevented her involvement in these murders.
Doris Tate had told Steven Kay that if he ever needed her help to let her know. In the early 80’s Kay learned that Van Houten’s supporters had been able to collect 900 letters in support of her release.
Kay called Mrs. Tate and advised her of Leslie’s support letters and asked did she think they could do better than that. Doris responded “Honey, you bet we can.”
Mrs. Tate was able to obtain over 350,000 letters against the release of Van Houten or any other member of the Manson Family.
This experience is what convinced Mrs. Tate to become active in the Victim’s Rights movement. She worked tirelessly for many years, until her death, on behalf of not only her daughter and the other victims of the Manson Family but all victims of violent crime.
The group Friends of Leslie were set back by these developments.
Posted by James Higham on 01/07/14 at 11:47 PM | #
giustizia, thank you for this powerful assessment. You compiled a huge amount of information with a deft hand, bringing forward the most pertinent points complete with quotations. It’s a major exposing of the masks of Amanda Knox and Scott Peterson.
There’s a new novel out based on Amanda Knox. The title is “Cartwheel” by Jennifer DuBois. It was released on September 24, 2013 by Random House. There’s a book review of it at http://www.ew.com/ew/article or you can search under terms “Cartwheel” and book.
I awoke this morning wondering what the varied reactions to the January 20th verdict will be when the biggest headlines say KNOX GUILTY!
Will Vedova screech in private and pull his hair, vowing to return to his Saudi money cases and never touch a defense again for a drugged up American?
Posted by Hopeful on 01/08/14 at 02:46 AM | #
Our society views men as ATM machines and to beat up other man at the slightest provocation. And to put other men down to make a woman happy.
With that being the case it is no wonder Peterson can be seen as normal. The fact he wasn’t seen as abnormal says a lot for our society as in fact we view men that have empathy as somehow not masculine in some circles.
I disagree. I know some see the bible as sexist especially the Jewish bible but God trusted men to have position that required wisdom and empathy.
Didn’t he come from a divorced family as well. Did his own father have something terrible happen to him in a marriage that somehow this caused some twisted view on marriage that he would view his wife being pregnant as something bad.
But the most disturbing aspect is that people he was just “normal” which if our society didn’t have such an awful view of men in the first place it would be obvious to most women and most men that there is something off about this guy just as it is obvious to anyone there is something very off about Amanda Knox.
Posted by adamk on 01/08/14 at 02:51 AM | #
@adamk
When you say ‘our society’ do you mean in the USA, or a part of the USA? I have never been to USA.
In England it is no longer the case - especially within the educated or middle classes - that it is ‘not done’ for men to have or show empathy, that somehow that is not masculine nor acceptable.
Some might even say that the ‘new men’ have become quite ‘soft’. Personally, as mentioned before, I believe we still have a long way to go to develop true empathy, within both sexes.
Unfortunately, it is a conspicuous feature of severe personality disorder that those with it (of both genders) are often duplicitous and deceive many people. Even those close to them can be and are taken in, as they can be extremely manipulative, and charming, and make a bee line for others’ weaknesses or vulnerability.
As Odysseus said, most people are trusting and have a tendency to give the benefit of the doubt. There is no easy answer…but discussion of the characteristics of personality disorder is helpful. It is good if we can become better at recognizing it, promptly, or at the least develop caution.
I would like to see elementary psychology taught within schools. I think it might help adolescents with their early relationships.
All the Italian men I have known personally have had emotional intelligence and empathy without losing their masculinity - I would even say this is a feature of their culture, from my experience.
But perhaps also, as Italians tend to be quite expressive with their emotions, it is easier to see what people are about - so maybe I have naturally steered away from any unsavory characters.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/08/14 at 06:49 AM | #
An error does not become truth by reason of multiplied propagation, nor does truth become error because nobody sees it.
- Gandhi
Knox’s parents realise she is guilty, their public disbelief must be double edged.
I am very interested in why her parents are not being honest. If my child committed this heinous crime, I feel sure I would council him/her to tell the truth and reveal all facts.
in my opinion their parents are as guilty and them, in many ways the parents lack of empathy, sympathy, love and compassion for the Kercher family is even more of an atrocity than the actions of their offspring.
I would appreciate any comments form my learned friends here on TJMK
Posted by mollythecat on 01/08/14 at 02:26 PM | #
@mollythecat
My thought for what it’s worth:
I suspect they daren’t think the unthinkable, so their reflexive action is just to defend their own.
Curt engaged a PR firm with indecent haste. That’s what corporations do (and he was/is a corporation man) in times of crisis. Get the senior executives into Media training as soon as possible to field the awkward press questions and maintain the company image. In the meantime, behind the scenes, look urgently into the causes of the crisis.
Unfortunately even corporations behave more honestly than the Knox family has. Imagine an airline facing a crisis when one of their planes goes down. Even though Crisis Management comes into play immediately, behind the scenes there are urgent enquiries (not just by the airline but by government bodies) as to who is responsible, what was the cause of the disaster and what can be done to prevent future occurrences.
The Knox family have seemingly been fixated on image control. To stretch the analogy they won’t even admit that their aircraft was involved. Fortunately a government body could shortly concentrate their minds:-)
Posted by Odysseus on 01/08/14 at 05:55 PM | #
Hello molly,
It is a lovely quote you have found from Gandhi, and a strong one.
He lived according to his own principles too, not an easy thing to do - not to cave in to peer pressure or expediency.
Perhaps why the defence’s families have supported their children so much is both complex and simple.
Basic or simple because of the primal desire to defend the family, as a survival instinct, really. However, this unconscious urge may often, in truth, just be defending the family ego, or the family neurosis, and not, actually, the family honour.
And complex because people, their psychology, and their morals and behaviour are complex.
For whatever reason, it has been painful to witness.. truly an example of “man’s inhumanity to man”. The insensitivity and apparent callousness has been shocking and shameful. Can one say they are ‘as guilty’ in the sense of a legally defined crime?
Unfortunately, moral law and judicial law do not always concur - we have the difficulty of burden of proof - although the sound people in the judiciary do their best,(which is usually very good).
I see Knox’s parents behaviour, in particular, as an extension of the same crime. Her father has anger management issues, and this has come out. But the insidious behaviour has mostly been from Knox’s mother - and I cannot help but wonder if it is not just an extension of how she DIDN’T correct her daughter’s behaviour and lies much, much, earlier on?
‘Tough love’ is sometimes needed for children, as any conscientious parent will tell.
I pray, most of all for the Kerchers sake, that it all soon comes to an end, and we hear no more of them all.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/08/14 at 06:14 PM | #
Hi Cardiol
Re your important observation at 02:50 PM yesterday about where society needs to come down with regard to dangerous sociopaths.
For sure I am with you and all or most others here: locking up for the protection of society seems the only wise, cautious choice for full-blown sociopathia. Italian prisons are humane places and if any treatment at all is available they will be offered it.
However, I suggest to you that in Knox’s case there are two factors which have complicated things.
(1) Though Knox was not remorseful (maybe cannot ever really be) she seemed to Mignini late 2007 to “know” she had overstepped some mark (as she had done earlier over the Berlin incident after which she mimicked regret) and was maybe starting to mimic “good behavior”. Mignini believes she may have come clean or at least headed closer to the truth than when she implicated Patrick, had Edda and Curt and Dalla Vedova not worked very hard to make her more hard-line. (We didnt know how hard till she described it herself in her book.)
(2) Italian justice officials are maybe just too damned kind! Especially with bambinos. The classic example is Judge Massei hanging the initiation of the attack on Guede - who was safe from further blame and punishment. Does anyone really believe Guede inititiated it? By doing that Massei took pressure off Knox, made her more hard-line, enabled the anti-Guede faction, opened the way to Hellmann going even softer on Knox (and harder on Guede), and even complicated the appeal in Florence.
Both (1) and (2) may have meant that Knox, who may have been only a small way down the slope to full-blown sociopathia late in 2007, may have ended up fully down the slope by mid 2010.
Gee thanks Curt & Edda and Judge Massei. (Just kidding.)
Posted by Peter Quennell on 01/08/14 at 07:14 PM | #
@SeekingUnderstanding
I liked your idea “I would like to see elementary psychology taught within schools. I think it might help adolescents with their early relationships”.
All communication (interpersonal) has three components: transmitter, the medium and the receiver. For a reliable communication, both sides must be equipped with reliable transmitters and receivers.
Everytime we receive some communication, we discuss, analyze, interpret and process not only the message but the background, the motive or reason and the expected impact on the receiver. In many cases, the message changes or affects the receiver and these are simply called control messages.
Some messages, perhaps most non-verbal communications, tend to control or modify the receiver. And some of these can be irreversible.
Communication is a very powerful thing. Many communications lose much power or effect when translated and this shows the role of the medium in communication. Communication is not only the words, but the associated gestures, intonations and other paraphernalia.
I feel that the PR campaign has been mostly successful as far as Amanda is concerned, whether or not it could sway the justice. But the fan-base is convinced and that matters.
Many, if not most, of us are quite irrational and decide things not by the brain but by the heart (or gut, take your pick). Of course I am not suggesting that you should ignore your own heart but it should not dominate in critical matters. But then who decides critical matters?
I sometimes think that we are not as good as we should be. We are simply not trying hard enough.
Posted by chami on 01/08/14 at 07:35 PM | #
I forgot to mention philosophy. What you think about teaching philosophy to school students? We are all individuals, not a nameless and faceless mass. The philosophy makes us better individuals.
Posted by chami on 01/08/14 at 07:38 PM | #
Hi Chami.
I do agree. Economic growth is iffy or slowing worldwide and future problems mounting (not only in applying justice) because of a few things that could be taught in schools in a few months.
Your suggestion (and SeekingUnderstanding’s) fits well with group process management which is needed if any large change is to work.
On TV we are unfortunately in the age of the superhero many of whom (the BBC and NBC Sherlock Holmeses, for example, and House MD) deviate along the autism spectrum. Creative geniuses may be somewhere on that spectrum.
But for entire countries to upgrade themselves and avoid future peril, the friendly collaborative efforts of millions and even billions are needed much more.
The other two great requirements are for (1) people to “see” value and (2) people to “see” purposeful systems. These are quite easily taught even to illiterates and could get millions out of dead-end careers (and out of abusing others on the internet.)
Posted by Peter Quennell on 01/08/14 at 07:59 PM | #
@chami
Yes, philosophy definitely. Or psychology taught and discussed in a philosophical manner.
There are great moral quandaries of which probably all of us will face at least one sometime in our future. I think most teenagers are remarkably aware of these, even though obviously they lack the maturity to deal with them that can only come from experience.
Younger people are often sensitive to ‘existential angst’ as well. I believe the more these issues could be introduced and discussed in a safe environment, the better they would be able to steer themselves through life.
Role play in practising being politely assertive might be helpful too. It’s a skill we are all going to need.
I liked your ‘transmitter, medium, and receiver ’ analogy, too.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 01/08/14 at 08:14 PM | #
Many of those who are defending Amanda both male and female are of the same ilk that don’t want to believe a woman could do this to another woman and want to believe a man (especially a black man) did this to Meridith. This agrees with their biases and prejudices which are society train people to believe and many woman want men to believe as well.
That being the case if this was a man doing this to her of a different nationality the man being a American and the woman British and happening in Italy I see no reason that many defend this man as they would be accused of sexism among other things although this mentality of course supports the psychopath woman over the normal woman.
It is just crazy how far along this has gone as even normal people have succumb to doing terrible things but they have remorse in the end.
And I’ll say it again. I don’t know if Meridith Kercher is an angel but she was 21 years old she was never able to become much of an adult as adulthood really doesn’t start till 18 or 21 and that is the tragedy. Amanda talks about wanting to have a family but Ms. Kercher can never have a family which to me is the biggest tragedy. She never really lived for many years as an adult.
Posted by adamk on 01/10/14 at 04:09 AM | #
@ Peter Quennell on 01/08/14 at 01:14 PM:
Pete, you open a whole new perspective! – Massei facilitated H/Z by hanging the initiation of the attack on Guede, and even complicated the appeal in Florence.
I agree with you – and if Massei can confuse an issue, who can’t?
Posted by Cardiol MD on 01/11/14 at 08:30 PM | #
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