Wednesday, October 15, 2014
Knox, Tied In Knots By Her Own Tongue: Translation Of The 17 Dec 2007 Interview With Dr Mignini #3
Posted by Machiavelli, Catnip, Kristeva
Warden of Capanne Prison Bernardina di Mario (not present at Knox’s interview)
1. Getting Up To Speed On This Third Post
How much serious questioning was Knox subjected to prior to this voluntary interview six weeks after her arrest?
In fact, none. In the early days of November, after Meredith was found dead, she had several less-formal “recap/summary” sessions with investigators on possible leads (as did many others), which the defenses conceded without argument at trial were simply that and no more.
So these were the first serious questions put to Knox - politely, and Knox is essentially not argumentative throughout
The transcript was in the evidence pile and all judges except Hellmann seem to have studied it hard. This was also the first-ever interview of Knox by Dr Mignini, as prosecutor appointed to the case. He had seen her twice at the house and heard her at her strong insistence early on 6 November.
But they had never before really talked.
Prior to this, Knox had already emanated over a dozen differing versions of what she wanted to claim took place and the police and prosecutors and Supervising Magistrate Claudia Matteini had tried to make sense of those.
2. Our Translation Of Approximately The Third 40 Minutes
This is the third 40 minutes of the voluntary interview which lasted in total about three hours. For a full understanding it would really be best to read first our first post and comment thread and also our second post and comment thread.
Transcript of Interview 17 December 2007: Statement of Interview Of Ms Amanda Knox (cont)
[recording begins again at 01.35 pm]
PM Mignini: At 13.35 the recording resumes, so where were we, so you, I asked you if you looked inside the toilet, or not?
Knox: I didn’t look closely inside the toilet
Interpreter: Only from a distance
[55]
PM Mignini: And you saw the faeces, but this time you got worried, what did you think, because, we said that already, didn’t we? Have you seen them [faeces] other times in the house?
Knox: It’s there when I thought something was wrong
Interpreter: At that point she started to be worried and to think there was something wrong
Knox: I couldn’t imagine what it could be because the house was in order
Interpreter: But she was unable to imagine what it could be because the house was in order
Knox: First of all I didn’t know the phone number of the Police
Interpreter: She didn’t know the police number here in Italy
Knox: Second I didn’t know if it was necessary
Interpreter: She didn’t know if it was necessary
Knox: So what I decided to do, I was thinking about it, I thought what these things would mean put altogether
PM Mignini: What is “if it was necessary”, I’m sorry, I don’t understand”¦
Interpreter: To call the police, she thinks”¦ it didn’t seem to her it was necessary to call the police
PM Mignini: But, excuse me, you found the house door open, blood in the house, closed bedroom doors, and you did not try to”¦ they didn’t answer, you called and then you didn’t try to look inside the rooms, you found faeces in the bathroom, sign of the presence of a foreign person, and you didn’t feel the need to call the police or the Carabinieri?
[56]
Knox: No, because if you come into the house and nothing is missing it usually means that no foreign person has come in
Interpreter: No, because nothing was missing, and so it appeared to her that”¦
PM Mignini: I understand, but there was blood”¦
Knox: It was not much”¦
PM Mignini: Did you check if anything was missing?
Knox: I didn’t really check; there was my computer in my room, and that was a big clue that everything was ok in the rest of the house.
Interpreter: She saw the computer was still in her room, so this”¦
PM Mignini: But you didn’t look inside the other rooms
Knox: They seemed okay.
Interpreter: And for the rest everything seemed ok to her”¦
PM Mignini: The drawer with the money, did you look [there] where the money was supposed to be?
Knox: No, I didn’t think that a foreign person or a thief could have been there, and I didn’t even think about it
Interpreter: No, She didn’t think about a theft and she didn’t imagine”¦
PM Mignini: Ok, let’s go forward, then I’ll make”¦ so you went to Sollecito, how were you dressed?
Knox: I was wearing the white skirt, the blue t-shirt and tights
Interpreter: White skirt, the light blue t-shirt and tights
PM Mignini: Well, what was the time, what route did you walk? Was it the usual rout to walk to Sollecito’s”¦? At what time did you arrive?
Knox: I think around midday
Interpreter: Around midday
[57]
PM Mignini: What did you say to Sollecito? Who was there”¦ was there someone with him or was he alone?
Knox: He was alone, and when he opened the door he was in his underpants
Interpreter: Yes he was alone, and when he answered he was in his underpants
Knox: When I went to the house, I took the bucket and mop with me
Interpreter: So she said (same as before our pause) before returning back to Raffaele’s house, she picked up the bucket and mop she promised to bring him on the previous evening”¦
PM Mignini: What bucket? How was that? What colour?
Knox: Red
Interpreter: Red
PM Mignini: Red. So where did you take it from?
Knox: In the corridor, which is between my room and Meredith’s room, there is a wardrobe, it was in there
Interpreter: She picked it up from a wardrobe that is in the corridor between her room and Meredith’s [room]
PM Mignini: There was a cleaning rag or a”¦ a towel”¦ a rag?
Knox: It was a red bucket and the mop
Interpreter: She took, it was a set, a bucket, and a rag with stick [mop]”¦
PM Mignini: The mop
Lawyer: The bucket was red, the rag was not, the bucket was red
Interpreter: Yes, sorry
PM Mignini: And you picked this in the”¦? Where was this mop?
Interpreter: This bucket was in the wardrobe that is in the corridor
[58]
PM Mignini: So you arrived at Sollecito’s, and you found him in his underpants, and what did you tell him?
Knox: At the beginning I didn’t tell him anything because I didn’t know what to say to him, still I didn’t know if there was anything strange”¦
Interpreter: She didn’t speak immediately with him because she was not sure whether there was something strange or not
PM Mignini: What, you were not”¦ Excuse me.. excuse me but you just told me everything was strange
Interpreter: Yes
PM Mignini: I can’t [understand]”¦ I mean you, what were you thinking, please explain yourself because this is a version that honestly”¦
Knox: I was trying to understand what the whole could mean
Interpreter: She was trying to understand how the things could fit together
Knox: Because I knew it was strange
PM Mignini: Thus, understand it by asking Sollecito about it, didnt you?
Knox: At the beginning I didn’t tell that to Raffaele because I didn’t know if there was something really serious”¦ I understood there was something strange, but I didn’t understand if it was serious”¦
PM Mignini: Contradiction is noted [for the record] here [io le contesto = a legal formula by which a judge points out a contradiction] that you”¦. that you”¦
Interpreter: But the situation was not worrying…
PM Mignini: Because about this [point]”¦ in particular about this point you said contradictory things”¦ well because you said, at a certain point “blood, open front door, faeces, etcetera, I became worried”, now you are saying “I was not worried”
[59]
any more, I asked Raffaele if I should worry””¦ so honestly, explain yourself, because it’s not clear at all
Knox: It seemed strange to me but not worrying or alarming
Interpreter: It seemed strange to me but not so worrying, alarming
Knox: Because the house is exactly how it should have been, except for those small things
Interpreter: At her house, in Amanda’s house, everything was as it should have, except for those details
Knox: I had the idea that if someone entered the house and did something there should be visible chaos
Interpreter: Had some foreign person come in they would have made more mess
PM Mignini: Well so, did it happen other times that you saw blood in the house, open house door, faeces in the toilet?
Knox: No
PM Mignini: This one was the first time?
Knox: Yes
PM Mignini: And”¦ and Raffaele, when you asked him about it, what did he say to you?
Knox: I talked with him about it after we cleaned up the water”¦
Interpreter: She told him after they cleaned up”¦
PM Mignini: So before that you told him nothing
Knox: No
Interpreter: No
PM Mignini: You cleaned up”¦ but excuse me?... Let me understand, that was water”¦ was that the water that spilled on the previous evening? At what time did it spill? Around 21 hours?
[60]
Knox: I don’t know because I didn’t look at the watch”¦ it was after dinner”¦
Interpreter: Ehm”¦ after dinner
PM Mignini: Ok, what time could that be? When did the leakage occur? 21: 30?... 20: 30? Have no clue?
Knox: I think it was about 10: 30
Interpreter: More like half past ten
PM Mignini: Half past ten”¦ and so almost, about twelve hours”¦ had passed, if I’m not mistaken, well, but didn’t the water dry up?
Knox: No, there was a lot of it
Interpreter: No it was a lot of water
PM Mignini: But hey it’s twelve hours that had passed, I didn’t make the count now but anyway it’s many hours that had passed, so…
Interpreter: But there was still the water
PM Mignini: As if those hours hadn’t passed. And then, what did Raffaele tell you? When did you talk about it with him? After finishing drying up [the floor]”¦
Knox: While he was dressing up I dried up the floor and when he got dressed I had finished drying up, we started to have breakfast, and then I told him”¦
Interpreter: Amanda was drying up the water while Raffaele was getting dressed and then when they”¦
PM Mignini: So when you finished everything taking your time, you said “this happened”
Interpreter: After he had dressed and they had breakfast she talked with him about it
PM Mignini: Oh so he dressed up, you had breakfast, so like about an hour has passed”¦ how long?
[61]
Knox: Yes, I don’t think quite a whole hour”¦
Interpreter: Almost an hour yes”¦ about an hour”¦
PM Mignini: At that point you told him what had happened”¦ what you had seen
Knox: Yes I told him the door was open, that there was some blood in the bathroom and there was the shit in the other bathroom”¦ the first thing I told him was “look, hear about these strange things that happened to me this morning”
PM Mignini: And what did he say?
Interpreter: Yes she told him about these three elements that were in the house
PM Mignini: And what did he say? What did he say?
Knox: Yes it’s strange, you need to call your housemates”¦
Interpreter: He said “yes it’s strange, call your housemates”
PM Mignini: But excuse me, he didn’t say call the Police or the Carabinieri? Not even on that occasion?
Knox: No, he said to call the housemates, I didn’t think that someone entered the house but that something could have happened to the girls”¦ thus he said “you should call the housemates”
Interpreter: She was thinking something happened to her housemates, not that someone, a foreign person had entered, so he suggested to her to call the housemates
PM Mignini: And did you [plural, referred to both] call them immediately?
Knox: I called Filomena
Interpreter: She called Filomena
PM Mignini: And what did Filomena say to you?
[62]
Knox: She was more worried than me”¦
Interpreter: Filomena was more worried than her”¦
Knox: She said she spent the night with her boyfriend and Laura”¦
PM Mignini: Excuse me”¦ excuse me”¦ excuse me”¦ when you called, where did you call Filomena, from where did you call Filomena and when?
Knox: From Raffaele’s house
Interpreter: From Raffaele’s house
PM Mignini: After you talked with him
Interpreter: Yes
PM Mignini: Is that after?
Interpreter: Yes
PM Mignini: So, now I note a contradiction [for the record] from you, that Ms. Romanelli said she received a phone call from you, she reported that “you were very frightened”¦ you told her you were very frightened, and you were going to call Raffaele Sollecito”. Thus on these findings, you called Filomena before you talked with Mr. Sollecito. And she, Filomena, urged you to call Police or Carabinieri
Knox: I’m sorry, I didn’t understand well
Interpreter: I’m sorry, I didn’t understand well
PM Mignini: So from statements given by Ms. Romanelli on Dec. 3., it comes out that you, Amanda, you called Filomena, you told her you had slept at Raffaele’s house, that you had gone back to the cottage in the morning and you found the front door open and some blood in the bathroom, you told her you took a shower anyway, that you were scared and that you intended to call Raffaele Sollecito. Then the thing seemed strange [to] Ms. Romanelli, and she urged you to call immediately Police and Carabinieri….
[63]
...This is what Ms. Romanelli says, according to what Ms. Romanelli says, you called her before talking to Raffaele Sollecito.
Knox: What I remember about that morning, the first time I remember I called Filomena it was when I was at Raffaele’s home”¦ An interesting thing I didn’t remember about that morning is that I called my mother three times, but I had completely forgotten about it. So what could have happened is that I forgot I called Filomena or we failed to communicate because she doesn’t speak English very well and I don’t speak Italian well. So I may have forgotten about calling her before, or I could have talked with her with some difficulty”¦ but”¦ I remember the first time I called her it was at Raffaele’s home. I might be mistaken but the other thing I didn’t remember was I called my mother three times and I don’t even remember about it”¦
Interpreter: As for what concerns her, as for what Amanda remembers, she remembers she called Filomena the first time from Raffaele’s home. It may not be she called her before. She doesn’t remember about it because she also talked that morning three times [sic] with her mother, something about which she doesn’t remember. Or it could be that they didn’t understand each other very well, since Filomena doesn’t speak English well and Amanda doesn’t speak Italian well, so they didn’t understand each other well.
PM Mignini: How many times did you speak with Filomena that morning, how many?
Knox: I recall she called at least three times when I was at Raffaele’s. I called her and she told me to call Meredith. So I tried to call Meredith and then she called me again to ask me if Meredith answered and I told her no, she didn’t answer. I said “we must go home and check then” and while we were getting ready she called again asking if we had arrived at home yet.
[64]
Interpreter: She believes she spoke with Filomena three times because Filomena told her to call Meredith, something she did but she didn’t answer. After that Ms. Filomena wanted to know the answer, and then Amanda said she would go to her house again to see the situation, and then she called Filomena again.
PM Mignini: You alerted Filomena, let’s go forward with the”¦ then we’ll see”¦ So you talked with Filomena, then you went with Mr. Sollecito, you went to the house, didn’t you? At what time did you arrive?
At this point, we put in the record that, at 13.55, clerk of the court Daniela Severi leaves and [Carabinieri] officier Paciotti takes her place.
Knox: I think I’ve left at around half past twelve
Interpreter: She thinks about half past twelve
Knox: I know it seems strange, I realize I should have arrived at the house before that time, before twelve. Because I washed (? unintelligible)
Interpreter: She should have arrived at Raffaele’s house before twelve, earlier than she thought. Because she did”¦
PM Mignini: Did you look at the time? The time?
Knox: No
Interpreter: No
PM Mignini: Who was there when you arrived at the house?
(interruption of the recording)
PM Mignini: So we start again at 14.02
Lawyer: On a question by the lawyers, we ask if she was in possession of a watch
PM Mignini: Did you have a watch?
[65]
Interpreter: No
PM Mignini: Well, but the cell phone had a watch, you had the time
Knox: Yes but I didn’t think about looking at the time
Interpreter: Yes but she didn’t think about looking at the time
PM Mignini: Well, so there were”¦ what did you see inside the house when you came in?
Knox: It was there that we started to open the doors, I checked in Filomena’s room and there was some broken glass”¦
Interpreter: So she opened FIlomena’s room where she saw broken glass
Knox: Yes it was broken, on the floor and the window
Interpreter: On the floor and the window
PM Mignini: Did you enter the room?
Knox: No I just opened it [the door]
Interpreter: No she just opened the door
PM Mignini: Excuse me, just to understand better this point, the first time you saw the door closed you might even”¦ you didn’t open it? You only opened on your return visit?
Knox: The first time I didn’t open the door
Interpreter: The first time she didn’t open the door
PM Mignini: It was closed. Now why did you open the door this time?
Knox: Because Filomena was afraid there could have been a burglary, a theft, so I opened to check if everything was ok.
Interpreter: Amanda opened Filomena’s room door because Filomena feared there could have been a theft and so she wanted to verify
[66]
PM Mignini: So then why didn’t you check? Didn’t you check if anything was missing?
Knox: I don’t know exactly what Filomena has in her room, I saw the computer on the table so I was not so much worried. The computer was the most valuable thing
Interpreter: So she didnt know of all Filomena’s items, but she immediately saw that Filomena’s computer was on the table, and so she thought”¦
PM Mignini: Well, and the door? Meredith’s door?
Knox: I was unable to open it
Interpreter: She couldn’t open it, the door of Meredith’s room
PM Mignini: Did you try to open the door?
Knox: Yes, first I tried to open it but it was locked so I knocked to see if she was sleeping, since it was locked I imagined she could be inside so I knocked to see if she was asleep
Interpreter: Yes she did try”¦ yes she tried to open but the door was locked and so she knocked to see if she was inside, if she was sleeping”¦
PM Mignini: I go back for a moment”¦ did you entered Filomena’s room, or you didn’t?
Knox: No
Interpreter: No
PM Mignini: You should be precise about this
Knox: No
Interpreter: No
PM Mignini: You didn’t enter”¦ so, as you saw that”¦ you knocked at Meredith’s door you saw her door, her room”¦ her room door was locked, at that point, did you try to call her?
Interpreter: Do you mean calling by voice?
[67]
PM Mignini: No, I mean calling her cell phone
Knox: I had already tried to call her three times from Raffaele’s home. I thought it would be easier to wake her up by knocking at the door.
Interpreter: She had tried to call Meredith three times already, when she was at Raffaele’s home, so she wanted to wake her up by knocking at the door
PM Mignini: And then what happened? “¦ oh just a moment, [you mean] you went to look inside the bathroom on the right, from the entrance point of view, not in your bathroom, the other bathroom”¦
Knox: When I looked inside, after we tried to open her door and everything, we were in the kitchen, and he would call his sister [sic]. I went to check the bathroom, I didn’t do down to the bottom, I went into the anteroom and what I had previously seen it had slipped down. It was as if it [the toilet] had been cleaned.
Interpreter: Amanda came back into the larger bathroom while Raffaele was calling his sister, and from a distance she could see the faeces had slipped down, apparently it had been cleaned.
PM Mignini: But did you go to look?
Knox: I didn’t look inside, I checked from a distance
Interpreter: She didn’t get close to see, she saw that from a distance
PM Mignini: From a distance? It’s hardly understandable”¦ from a distance of how many meters?
Knox: From the anteroom where I had dried my hair, I looked very quickly and I didn’t see anything and I got scared, because the man or whoever left the faeces had been there.
Interpreter: From the area where she dried her hair she gave a quick glance and she saw it was no more like it was before, it was clean, the faeces had slipped down and…
[68]
... thus at this point she got worried because apparently someone”¦
PM Mignini: At the same distance you”¦ you saw that from the same distance?
Knox: Yes, I had gone a bit closer the first time
PM Mignini: It’s where you dried your hair?
Knox: In the bathroom anteroom in front of the mirror”¦
Interpreter: In front of the mirror, in the area in front of the mirror”¦
PM Mignini: At what distance is that from the toilet?
Knox: I don’t understand meters”¦
PM Mignini: You mean it was in the bathroom anteroom [apparently Mignini shows her a picture or a map, ed.]
Knox: From here”¦ maybe I was here”¦
PM Mignini: It’s a couple of meters
Knox: The second time I was not at the mirror [sic] I was in the door [sic], I entered this way here and”¦
PM Mignini: At the same distance, so…
Knox: No, not at the mirror, because when I entered the mirror is this way, but I entered”¦
Interpreter: The second time from a bit more far away
Knox: But only a little more far
PM Mignini: Excuse me, you couldn’t see anything from there”¦ there is the bathroom anteroom and the bathroom, where were you?
[69]
Knox: I was at the door, I mean I entered the anteroom yet I was very close to the door, that leads to the kitchen..
Interpreter: Between the bathroom anteroom and the bathroom. Yes she was in the anteroom
PM Mignini: From the anteroom, so I note a contradiction [for the record], that you can’t see anything from there, so you made a statement, you told Raffaele the faeces were not there anymore, despite that you didn’t see anything. Because you would not be able to”¦
Knox: Because the first time I also saw from a distance
PM Mignini: Ok, that’s ok”¦ I doubt that you could see from there anyway”¦ you didn’t go to check, you say “let’s see if the faeces are still there or not”?
Knox: No
Interpreter: No
PM Mignini: You remained outside [from the bathroom], you didn’t check, but you said to Raffaele “the faeces are not there anymore” in a worried fashion
Knox: I thought they were not there anymore
Interpreter: Because she thought they were not there
PM Mignini: Listen, so, then did you tell Romanelli about the break-in? about the broken glass? “¦ Filomena?
Knox: Yes I called her and she said she was coming
Interpreter: Yes she called her and she said she was coming too
PM Mignini: And what was Raffaele doing in that moment?
Knox: We decided to call his sister
Interpreter: They decided to call Raffaele’s sister
Knox: And she said, call the Carabinieri or the Police
Interpreter: And Raffaele’s sister told them to call the Carabinieri
[70]
PM Mignini: What time it was? “¦ excuse me I wanted, there’s another question I wanted to”¦ did you have any vaseline at home? Vaseline?
Interpreter: At their house?
PM Mignini: At their house, the apartment, Via della Pergola
Knox: No I don’t use it, the only thing I know about Vaseline is Meredith always looked for it and when we went in a store together she would always go to see if there was any Vaseline”¦ because she said it was very useful. I don’t think we had any, I don’t think, but I never use it
Interpreter: Amanda never used it, she only knows Meredith was always looking for it since she thought it was very useful, she [Knox] herself doesn’t know if there was any at home
PM Mignini: So you don’t know if Meredith had any?
Knox: I know she wanted it but I don’t know if she bought it
Interpreter: She knew she was going for it but she doesn’t know whether she bought it or found it
PM Mignini: Who arrived next?
Knox: After we called the police, I and Raffaele, we went outside because we felt very uncomfortable, two police men came”¦
Interpreter: After they called the police Amanda and Raffaele went outside and two police officers came
PM Mignini: So they called the police?
Interpreter: Yes
PM Mignini: At what time?
Knox: I don’t know because it was Raffaele who called them.. they came.
[71]
Interpreter: She doesn’t know if they called the Police or the Carabinieri because it was Raffaele who did it but two officers came, dressed in uniform…
PM Mignini: Yes, yes”¦ no, not in uniform
Interpreter: In plain clothes
PM Mignini: At what time did they arrive?
Knox: I didn’t look at the time
PM Mignini: I note the contradiction [for the record] that the calls to the Carabinieri were done after the arrival of the Provincial Police [sic]”¦ the Postal Police”¦
Knox: I did not call
Interpreter: Amanda didn’t call
PM Mignini: Well, did you see Raffaele calling?
Knox: Yes
Interpreter: Yes
PM Mignini: How many times did he call?
Knox: Once
Interpreter: Once
PM Mignini: Once? He called twice”¦
Lawyer: she doesn’t know
PM Mignini: So two officers of the Police came, did they identify themselves as such? [Did they say] “Polizia Postale”?
Knox: Yes, they showed us the badges
Interpreter: Yes, they did
[72]
PM Mignini: Well, but in the meanwhile, did two other young people arrive?
Knox: Yes after the police arrived, I led them into the house, because I thought they were those Raffaele had called, and I showed them that the door was locked and I showed them the window was broken and in the meanwhile Filomena and the boyfriend arrived”¦
Interpreter: Yes when the two police officers arrived, she thought they were those Raffaele had called and so she showed them”¦
Knox: And also two friends of hers [arrived]
Interpreter: “¦ Meredith’s locked room and Filomena’s room with the broken glass, with the broken window and then Filomena with her boyfriend arrived and also other two young people”¦
PM Mignini: Oh”¦ so you”¦ you entered, I ask you this once more, you didn’t enter Filomena’s room, did you enter the other rooms?
Knox: It’s not that I went to look around, but I opened Laura’s door, that was all ok, there the bed was done up. There was the computer, so it was all ok.
Interpreter: She opened Laura’s room and she saw it was all in order
PM Mignini: Did you enter the room?
Knox: Maybe one step but I didn’t go inside
Interpreter: Maybe she made a step but she didn’t go around much
PM Mignini: And in which other”¦ did you enter other rooms?
Knox: I entered my room, and I tried to open the door of Meredith’s room
[73]
Interpreter: She entered her room, and tried to enter Meredith’s room but it was locked
PM Mignini: And so what did you”¦ what happened at that point?
Knox: After Filomena arrived, she handled the talking with the police, and I stayed in the kitchen with Raffaele
Interpreter: After Filomena arrived, it was Filomena talking with the two officers and Amanda and Raffaele remained in the kitchen
PM Mignini: And so did you two see”¦ what happened next? You two, did you see?
Knox: I know the police opened Meredith’s room
Interpreter: She knows the police opened Meredith’s room
PM Mignini: You know that because they told you?
Knox: No, no, I was in the kitchen, and from there I could see they were beside Meredith’s room, but I was not there, I was in the kitchen
Interpreter: No, no, she saw that from the kitchen
PM Mignini: But you, what did you see of Meredith’s room?
Knox: I did not see inside the room
PM Mignini: You didn’t see anything”¦
Interpreter: She didn’t see down into the inside of the room
PM Mignini: So did you see the scene? Neither you nor Raffaele?
Interpreter: No
Knox: No we didn’t see
PM Mignini: Neither of you two, when they opened it, where were you?
Knox: In the kitchen
[74]
Interpreter: In the kitchen
PM Mignini: So you were a few meters away
Knox: Yes, yes
Interpreter: Yes
PM Mignini: In what area of the kitchen were you staying?
Knox: more or less near the entrance
Interpreter: In the.. near the [outside] entrance of the kitchen”¦
PM Mignini: About the entrance, you mean the house entrance, just beyond”¦ so you were”¦
Knox: Yes we were inside
Interpreter: Yes
PM Mignini: When they entered, then was the door immediately closed again?
Interpreter: With the officers?
PM Mignini: Meredith’s [room].
Knox: I don’t know, they just told me to get out of the house
Interpreter: She doesn’t know, because they told her to get out of the house
PM Mignini: The Carabinieri, at what time did they arrive? Did [some people] wearing black uniforms come? Other police officers?
Knox: The Carabinieri came”¦ at that point I was very frightened”¦ I don’t remember when they arrived, I’m sure that was after, when I went out, and I sat on the ground and I couldn’t understand what was going on”¦
Interpreter: The Carabinieri arrived afterwards when I was outside
PM Mignini: How long after the arrival of the two plain-clothed police officers?
[75]
Knox: I’ve already said in these instances it’s too difficult to define the time, because I only remember Filomena saying “A foot! A foot!” We were pushed out, there were police officers outside and I sat on the ground, I couldn’t”¦ I was under shock and couldn’t understand what happened”¦
Interpreter: What Amande remembers is that after Meredith’s door was opened, Filomena was screaming “A foot! A foot!” and Amanda was told to get out of the house and it’s hard to explain at this point, to tell if she was frightened..
PM MIgnini: When did the Carabinieri come? When? After the body had been discovered?
Knox: I saw the Carabinieri when I went out, I don’t know when they came”¦
Interpreter: She saw the Carabinieri when she got out of the house, she doesn’t know when they came
PM MIgnini: But the Carabinieri did not enter? You did not see them inside the house.
Knox: No I don’t think so”¦
Interpreter: No
PM MIgnini: So you saw them when you went out, so was that after a long time since the arrival of the Postal Police? After”¦ ten minutes, fifteen minutes?
Knox: Yes, maybe after some ten minutes, I was still in shock and I was scared so it’s difficult to tell at what time the various things happened”¦
Interpreter: It’s difficult for her to say how much time had passed because she was in shock but something like ten minutes must have passed
PM MIgnini: Oh well, I wanted to know this: did Raffaele tell you about what was in the room?
[76]
Knox: Before, he didn’t know himself what was inside the room
Interpreter: Before, he didn’t even know himself
Knox: But after, when they were all talking”¦ he found out yes”¦ After the police was there and we were all outside together I don’t know who told him but it must have been Filomena or I don’t know who else”¦ but someone explained him that it was not just a foot in the room but the body”¦ but what they saw of it was the foot”¦ So he explained to me that the body was in the room, but you could only see the foot.
Interpreter: When she was outside with Raffaele, to [sic] him, he understood that it was not just a foot but it was the body that had been found
PM MIgnini: But he told you, did he tell you textually “there was a girl’s body inside the wardrobe covered with a sheet, and the only thing you could see was a foot”. This, did Raffaele tell it to you?
(the interpreter, at this point translates the question asked by PM MIgnini this way: “did Raffaele tell you that in the room there was the body covered by a cover?)
Knox: Yes
Lawyer: She [the interpreter] did not say: in the wardrobe?
PM MIgnini: These are your statements. You declared on December 2”¦. on November 2. “¦ On November 2. 2007 at the first questioning when you were heard, the very first one, a few hours after the discovery of the body, you told, you said Raffaele told you that “in the wardrobe, there was the body of a girl covered by a sheet and the only thing you could see was a foot”. Is this true, that Raffaele told you this?
Lawyer: Please judge, could you read it to us?
[77]
PM MIgnini: So “in the wardrobe..” Excuse me, please translate this word by word to her”¦ “in the wardrobe there was the body of a girl covered with a sheet and the only thing that you could see was a foot”
Knox: As Raffaele said
Interpreter: This is as Raffaele told it to Amanda”¦
PM MIgnini: Yes, she said this in the first [2 November] questioning.
Knox: Yes, apparently, it seemed to me, he told me the body was in the wardrobe”¦ it’s this that he told me”¦ obviously he did not see himself inside the room, it was things that were told to him by someone else”¦
Interpreter: Yes, on November 2. she said so because it’s what Raffaele told her. Because not even what he thought he understood [sic “neanche quello che secondo lui ha capito”]... Since he did not see”¦ he did not see inside the room”¦. Raffaele told her that way
PM MIgnini: These are textual, precise words so? “¦ I may read them again to you”¦ You confirmed”¦
Lawyer: She confirmed that Raffaele heard other people saying that maybe this was the version, and he referred this version, referring to something he heard
PM MIgnini: I read them again, I can read them again”¦.
Lawyer: We’ve read it, you explained to us
PM MIgnini: So on November 2. you say, that means the first questioning at 15: 30, this is the first one, the most aseptic one let’s say, so: “I learned in that moment from my boyfriend that inside Meredith’s room in the wardrobe there was the body of a girl covered with a sheet and the only thing you could see was a foot”.
Knox: Yes
Interpreter: Yes
[76]
PM MIgnini: You confirm that he spoke to you this way
Knox: Yes
Interpreter: Yes
Lawyer: She pointed out to the previous question, the source from which Raffaele had this information
Interpreter: Raffaele did not see, so it was what it seemed to him
Lawyer: Raffaele collected this information from other people
Interpreter: From the people around, Carabinieri and other young people
PM MIgnini: But excuse me, excuse me, did Raffaele tell you this, did he tell you “this one told me, that one told me”, or instead Raffaele limited himself to just telling you this? What did Raffaele tell you?
Knox: I think it was Filomena’s friends who told him
Interpreter: She thinks it was Filomena’s [male] friend who told Raffaele
PM MIgnini: You think”¦
Knox: I don’t know who told him
PM MIgnini: Excuse me”¦
Interpreter: Yes she thinks but doesn’t know
PM MIgnini: Excuse me, the question was as follows, here’s the question”¦ Are you ready? “¦ So, Raffaele comes to you”¦
Knox: Yes
PM MIgnini: And what does he say? “There is the body of a girl in the wardrobe, covered with a sheet, and you can only see a foot”? Or did he say “someone told me that there is the body of a girl” and said who [told him]?
[79]
Knox: I understand”¦ I understand”¦ He said precisely “Apparently there is a girl, there is the body of a girl, in the wardrobe”¦ But the only thing that you can see is her foot”
Interpreter: He did not say who told him, he just said “it seems like”¦” and “apparently”¦”
PM MIgnini: He said so: “It seems like”¦” ?
Interpreter: Yes
PM MIgnini: The body is in the wardrobe covered with a sheet, and you only see a foot
Interpreter: Yes it seems like they say apparently
PM MIgnini: Oh, then when did you know, you, how Meredith died?
Lawyer: How Meredith was dead?
PM MIgnini: That she was dead, and about how she died
Knox: The police told me
PM MIgnini: When did they tell you?
Knox: At the beginning they didn’t tell us if was Meredith or not, Filomena said “Oh no, Meredith!” so I imagined it was her but I didn’t know”¦ So at the Questura when they were already questioning they told me then that it was Meredith. I don’t remember the exact moment when they told me but it was at the Questura”¦
Interpreter: She actually learned this when she was at the Questura, later, before she learned about the body of a girl and then she heard Filomena saying “Oh my god, its Meredith!” and hence”¦
[80]
PM Mignini: And about the way she was killed, when did you come to know that? Excuse me, I’ll give you an example, she could have been shot with a gun, with a stab, poisoned”¦ I mean”¦
Knox: I didn’t know how she was killed”¦ I thought that there was this foot in the room but didn’t know anything else”¦ The police…
Interpreter: The police told her
PM : When? Who told you from the police?
Knox: I don’t remember
Interpreter: She doesn’t remember
Lawyer: No, but she also said that she doesn’t know how she was killed”¦
PM Mignini: This is important: therefore you don’t know how she was killed?
Knox: No
Interpreter: No, she didn’t know
PM Mignini: You didn’t know how she was killed, what was it the police telling you?
Knox: The police told me that her throat had been cut”¦ and from what they told me I had pictured something horrible”¦
Interpreter: The police told her that her throat had been cut
PM Mignini: Who told you from the police?
Knox: I don’t remember
Interpreter: Eh, she doesn’t know who
PM Mignini: Well, a man, a woman”¦?
Knox: I don’t remember
Interpreter: I don’t remember
[81]
PM Mignini : And when were you told?
Knox: When I was at the questura, but I don’t remember. When they interrogated me the first time I remember that they said “we don’t even know if it’s Meredith” I don’t remember when they told me, I only remember that the police told me when I was in the Questura because I didn’t know what had happened”¦
Interpreter: She only remembers that she was in the questura when she came to know how
PM Mignini: At what time?
Knox: I don’t remember”¦
Interpreter: I don’t remember.
Continued in Part #4 at this address.
Posted by Machiavelli, Catnip, Kristeva on 10/15/14 at 10:50 PM in
Comments
Thank you so much, Yummi, Catnip, Kristeva for your tremendous work!
The tension is building up, Dr. Mignini is a fine (human) investigator, he is asking Knox what everybody here would have asked her!
Simply amazing how the felonette produces one “I don’t remember” after another.
Posted by Bjorn on 10/16/14 at 04:01 AM | #
Hi Bjorn
Tension and mistrust was presumably building in Knox’s lawyers too: Costas quit the team soon after, and Ghirga was rumored to be thinking of quitting during the trial.
In her book, Knox tries to make out that Mignini was being obtuse in response to her wonderfully logical answers, and her lawyers were edgy and leaping in to help her.
But in the book she gives zero description of the subjects covered, or how increasingly evasive and “forgetful” she became as more and more of her contradictions were formally noted.
Instead the book is riddled with false claims. There is no confirmation in the transcript of this claim Knox makes.
It bothered me that as I answered him as fully as I could through an interpreter, Mignini would usually repeat the question. I was afraid I wasn’t making myself clear. At first, Carlo, acting as a second interpreter, spoke in measured tones. He would interrupt and say, “What she is really saying is . . .†or “She’s already answered that question!â€
Or of this claim.
My lawyers listened intently to Mignini’s wording, to his repetitions, to the interpreter’s translation of his questions and my responses, and jumped up to object to suggestive phrasing and misinterpretations. They came prepared to protect me from what they’d warned me against: aggressive and insidious questioning by a prosecutor whose interest wasn’t to hear me out but to get me to say something incriminating.
Or of this claim.
After five and a half hours of standing and fielding questions, I was tired, but I thought everything was going okay.
In fact, there were numerous breaks, including one for lunch, and questioning was less than three hours, and it was held at her request, and Knox was sitting.
Three more of the dozens of false claims designed to make Knox look put upon. Buyers of the book should be allowed to get their money back.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/16/14 at 11:39 AM | #
This I had not seen. Standing!? Ridiculous. It is a lie. What comes out from this interview is that AK perfectly understood the prosecutor even without the interpreter. So she lies even there when she says the opposite. The last sentence, that the police told her the throat had been cut and she does not remember who told her, is an obvious lie, they never told her. Prosecutor knows how to interrogate, he asked how, where, who, and when ... the responses lock her obvious lie.
The best will be in part 4 !!
Posted by Popper on 10/16/14 at 03:18 PM | #
very well done to the translators
Posted by Popper on 10/16/14 at 03:22 PM | #
WOW! This is so excellent! Thank you again Yummi, Catnip, and Kristeva. And thank you Peter for your very relevant comments that further illuminate Knox’s pathological lies and deception. Looking forward to #4 and more if possible. It would be very interesting to read RS’s police/prison interviews if available. Molte grazie!
Posted by Johnny Yen on 10/16/14 at 03:42 PM | #
ANNOUNCEMENT: With the release of the Nencini Report the Knox Brigade has run around like a swarm of wasps without their nest.
Thanks to PMF member Patrizio, we now have an indexed, searchable PDF with Table of Contents for wide dissemination amongst the press, social media (that’s why there’s a campaign against ‘abuse’ directed at us) and the larger Meredith Kercher community.
It fully credits the translators at ORG and retains the original wording, but formatted to match the English page numbers with the Italian original, and addition of index and Table of Contents.
You can download it here http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=123591#p123591 , copies given to Peter and the Wiki for publishing as well, but, all are welcome to use.
Any suggestions would be welcomed. Just post here or the various forums and Patrizio will be happy to make necessary changes.
Posted by Ergon on 10/16/14 at 04:17 PM | #
Appreciated, Popper.
You have read the last part in the Italian (posting it for Yummi, Catnip and Kristeva tomorrow) and yes it sure has Knox floundering.
She isnt brought down by the sharp questioning of Dr Mignini so much as by her mounting inconsistencies.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/16/14 at 04:45 PM | #
Hi Johnny Yen
Yeah this is becoming remorseless. Coming translations dovetailing with this will be:
(1) the long statement of Sollecito to Judge Matteini on 8 November 2007; it is about 32 pages (there is a summary on the Wiki) of contradictions both with his other claims and with Knox’s.
(2) the report of the 2 November questionings; Knox above suggests hers was about 6 hours but there were many breaks and interruptions and also translation both ways slows exchanges by 50%.
Is is there that Knox above suggests that the interpreter D’Astolto told her of Meredith’s wounds. As Popper just observed above, this is impossible to believe; cops dont give out such information during questioning.
If it is not in the transcript she is (again) lying.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/16/14 at 04:57 PM | #
Appreciated, Ergon. Indexed version of the Nencini report is uploaded and available via the link in the box at the top here.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/16/14 at 05:45 PM | #
I find it shocking that AK uses the word ‘insidious’ about Mignini’s questionning. It is ‘logical questionning’ or perhaps ‘perceptive questionning’.
He seems to be attempting to make sense of her replies, and build a coherent narrative.
He says, ‘Please explain yourself’... And ‘I’m sorry I don’t understand’... and, ‘honestly, please explain, as it’s not clear at all’. He is asking for clarification.
Mignini also says, ‘excuse me..’ several times.
The only times I can see where he repeats a question - reasonable to begin with - is where she is stubbornly evasive, withholding an answer, or giving a ‘fudged’ one…e.g. ‘I don’t understand meters..’
His questionning is neutral - if adequate and reasonable explanations had been forthcoming, they also might have exonerated her. He was looking for the truth, that’s all.
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/16/14 at 06:39 PM | #
You’re welcome, Peter. There may be minor errors in the original translation that are being worked on but till then best to get out as soon as possible.
Note to ORG: Here’s a message from Jonny Yen, who noted an error in the original translation:
“Hello,
I just noticed there may be an error on page 47 near the bottom. It states “at the time of the events that are subject of this trial, the apartment located on the ground floor was inhabited by the victim, Meredith kercher,..”.
It then goes on to say that “several young men” inhabit the ground floor.
Kind regards,
Jonny”
McCall passed it on since he didn’t have access to his PMF account at the time he got the message. As I recall, the girl’s apartment was referred to elsewhere as the “ground floor”, and the boys as “the basement”?
Posted by Ergon on 10/16/14 at 06:43 PM | #
Contradictions galore!
From Knox Trial Testimony (answering Maresca):
AK: I heard that her throat was cut, and from what I saw in CSI [Crime Scene Investigation] of these things, these things are neither quick nor pleasant. So when they said “We hope she died quickly,” like I don’t know, in some other way, I said “But what are you saying, her throat was cut, good Lord, bleargh.” I had remained at that point, that brutality, this death that was really blechh, that made a horrible impression. That was what really struck me, that fact of having your throat cut. It seemed so gross, and I imagined that it was a very slow and terrifying death. So when they said “We hope it was like this,” I said “No, I think it was really gross, disgusting.”
——————
It’s logical to conclude that such an accurate description of Meredith’s murder came from a witness or the killer herself. Yet Knox deflects all questions onto others: Sollecito, the police officers, Filomena, and Filomena’s friends. Mignini isn’t duped and neither were the investigators.
Posted by Stilicho on 10/16/14 at 09:47 PM | #
To add to Peter’s list of false claims from the fictional “memoir” of Knox (Peter Quennell on 10/16/14 at 05:39 AM):
I stood near Carlo and Luciano with an interpreter, waiting for Mignini to give me permission to speak. That never came. Instead of asking what I had to say, he started firing questions at me immediately.
Then also, from her Trial Testimony, comes Knox’s claim that this very document is inaccurate:
GCM: Excuse me, first can you explain if you were able to evaluate the translation? Were you able to tell whether the translation was exact or not? Whether it corresponded?
AK: No. I was quite frustrated with her, because she would take something I said in a hundred words and say it in two, and then she used words that weren’t right, and then she forgot to tell me things that the pubblico ministero had said. There was a lot of confusion.
CDV: How long did that interrogation last? Do you remember?
AK: At least six or seven hours.
CDV: Do you remember that the recording of the interrogation was then translated by another person?
AK: I know it was translated, but I didn’t know it was translated by another person or the same one. I don’t know.
CDV: And do you remember that it was necessary to translate also the translator, the interpreter, this Giulia Clemish?
AK: [Laughing] Oh yes, true. Right.
CDV: So the interrogation that we have in the dossier is a translation of the interrogation, and also of the translation made by that interpreter.
AK: Yes.
CDV: Who was German-speaking.
AK: Yes. It was a big mess.
So her present position is that this transcript does not record the conversation with Mignini accurately—even though she essentially repeats it verbatim during the testimony itself.
Posted by Stilicho on 10/16/14 at 09:56 PM | #
A bit off topic:
Amanda Knox-Inspired Film Gets a Distributor - October 16th, 2014
http://movies.mxdwn.com/news/amanda-knox-inspired-film-gets-a-distributor/
So much for Ghirga’s lawsuit! Looks like this will be out in theaters just in time for the final conviction and extradition. :D
Posted by Johnny Yen on 10/17/14 at 05:42 AM | #
‘Fielding’ questions?
Is there no end to her combative non-co-operation?
Posted by SeekingUnderstanding on 10/17/14 at 08:21 AM | #
Hi Stilicho
Good catch from the trial. Because this transcript unusually includes the words of the interpreter, we can all see that the interpreter did just fine, the depth of detail is overall the same, and Knox is not recorded as showing any differences.
Dalla Vedova was acting irresponsibly here, leading her along, and missing out how Knox bombed out. And by Knox’s own choice (see next post) the questioning lasted less than three hours.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/17/14 at 01:18 PM | #
Hi Johnny Yen
Thanks on the movie, to which we gave a generally good review (it was put together in the legal limbo before the Florence appeal).
Only now do I realise how prominent Daniel Brühl and Cara Delevigne are. There’s a huge billboard showing Cara Delevigne (the Meredith clone) as a model in Manhattan, and Daniel Brühl (the fictional German documentary maker) was one of the two leads (Niki Lauda) in the terrific motor racing film “Rush”.
The main negative from Knox’s point of view is it doesnt much focus on her, and makes her pretty dull. Hard to see what Ghirga can do - similar threats happened at the time of the Lifetime TV movie and that really did show an aggressive, narcissistic, sharp-elbowed little “Knox”.
Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/17/14 at 01:29 PM | #
Michael Winterbottom’s Angel Face movie is opening at the London Film Festival October 18, at 8 PM (or is that 10 PM?)
If anyone gets to see it, would be interested in your impressions.
Posted by Ergon on 10/17/14 at 03:31 PM | #
She said, ‘there was not much blood’. But she saw a bloodied footprint!
Then she picks up the mop and bucket from the corridor, from a wardrobe which is between hers and Meredith’s room!
After all that she saw in the house she has more concern for a water spillage at Sollecito’s?
I’m very glad to read these translations! Thanks to all.
Posted by DavidB on 10/18/14 at 09:17 AM | #
DavidB - Ya, so right! Ridonculous. Also, did NASA ever figure out why H20 doesn’t evaporate at RS’ apt.? Gawd, the stupidity of that story, i.e. excuse for having mop & bucket at a murder scene when the cops show up the next a.m.
On the bowel movement of Guede at via del Pergola the night of Mez’ murder: hard drugs often give users a sudden urge & need to evacuate the bowels, i.e. cocaine & others. It fits the evidence & related info (defence lawyer saying RS wasn’t the one on coke during one court session & AK connections to the now-convicted coke dealers in Italy), & with no need to fabricate a bad kebob. Just a side-note. Apologies if this point is redundant.
Posted by all4justice on 10/22/14 at 05:31 PM | #
Could someone tell me when Mez’ missing $ & credit cards were identified & what discussion occurred at the orig. trial about it? The killers (AK & RS) claimed nothing was stolen, but there were the two cell phones (thankfully found right away!!), + Mez’ rent $, & I’ve seen reference to her credit cards also being missing.
What if: AK stole the $ from Mez after being told by Patrick there was no work for her that night & used it to buy blow (as seen in CCT vid), then returned to the house to do some lines w/ RG before the planned hazing (or even without hazing planned consciously), & if Mez’s bedroom light weren’t on (she was tired) or only the night table light were on, maybe AK wouldn’t have seen that Mez was home (her bedroom window facing the ravine, not the house front & street)... then loud Obknoxious & RG doing coke could’ve been surprised by Mez coming out to say ‘please keep it down’, whereby Mez saw the cocaine (hard drugs) & threatened to call the cops, that threat would have been enough to drive coked-out hateful AK to go ballistic w/ all her nurtured rage & jealousy of Mez, & fear of having her freedom curtailed & ‘the mask of a drug-user & thief forced upon her face.’ Drug charges, not theft would have ruined AK’s Freedom - to stay in Italy, to travel the world (to China chasing ex-boyfr.), to do all the drugs & men she likes, etc.
I was just thinking that this scenario, not uncommon in shared student accomodations) could explain why AK tortured & killed Mez that night, not that anything could ever truly explain a murderer’s actions & certainly never justify it.
Thoughts?
Posted by all4justice on 10/22/14 at 06:02 PM | #
@all4justice
Makes sense to me. AK was quite likely already primed to explode after the humiliation of being “left out” (in her mind) on Halloween. Then Meredith complaining about being woken/disturbed by the noise etc,... and the hard drugs. All that could well be the case.
Meredith represented Knox’s unacknowledged and projected “shadow side” i.e. the hard working and ambitious student. As Mrs Kercher said, she was everything that the directionless AK was not. It’s beyond grotesque for Knox to try and portray herself as the diligent student NOW, for PR purposes, after killing her flatmate for possessing that quality.
Posted by Odysseus on 10/22/14 at 06:56 PM | #
I totally agree, Odysseus! It is hypocritical and infuriating. She’s such a con artist, and worse.
Editorial note: Oops, I see that somehow a parenthetical aside I wrote ended up in the wrong place in a sentence. The CCT video of AK released in recent months was of a time showing she was near via del Pergola around the time Mez returned. I believe the timing showed AK left just before Meredith would have arrived home based on testimony from her friend about when they parted ways while walking to their homes after the get-together with their friends.
Posted by all4justice on 10/23/14 at 03:45 AM | #
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Or to previous entry Knox, Tied In Knots By Her Own Tongue: Translation Of The 17 Dec 2007 Interview With Dr Mignini #2