Tuesday, December 22, 2009

Rudy Guede Appeal: And The Outcome Is A Reduction Of His Sentence From 30 To 16 Years

Posted by Peter Quennell

The decision is not yet announced. But it should be decided within two or three hours. The court is now in closed session.

Yesterday Guede’s two lawyers, court-appointed Walter Biscotti and Nicodemo Gentile, asked at the outset for his acquittal for their client.

Seemingly contradictorily to us, they also asked for the granting of the extenuating circumstances already granted to Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito.

They said their client is frank, young, not a liar, has not slandered anyone, and is the only one that has always told the same version of events.

As our posts below explain, this is not strictly correct. Guede in fact subtly backed off his claims of intimate relations with Meredith and of clearly having seen Sollecito.

The prosecution repeated their demand that Guede have his full term in prison affirmed, and the lawyer for Meredith’s family did likewise.

By the way, some of our emails, several quite passionately, argue for the innocence, partial or total, of Rudy Guede. There is a feeling that he was either set up or fully framed for the crime.

Though even he admits that he left Meredith to die, and that he never called an ambulance that might have saved her.

Update: As TJMK poster Commisario Montalbano had warned in his posts and comments below Rudy Guede stood to get his sentence reduced to about this amount. 

The extenuating circumstances extended to Knox and Sollecito are now taken into account. Also because Guede had selected a short-form trial he was eligible anyway for a sentence 1/3 less than that of Sollecito and Knox.

Fairly automatic in fact. We see nothing in this that should provide any comfort to Knox and Sollecito that their own verdicts will be overturned. 

Emailed for inclusion here by Commisario Montalbano.

The two appeals are totally independent. The judges are different too. The process for an appeal of an abbreviated trial are subject to the procedures of Art. 599 of the CPP, which are different from the full appeal of an appellate Court of Assizes, the tougher process that Knox and Sollecito must contend with.

This judge simply expected that Amanda and Raffaele will get their sentence confirmed in appeal, and he then acted accordingly. Basically he granted to Guede the same ‘attenuanti generiche’ applied to the two of them.

And then with the 1/3 auto-reduction for his short-form trial Guede got his sentence reduced to 16 years.

On the appeal of AK and RS anything can happen, but the most likely scenario is a confirmation of the sentence. The only way they’ll get out of it is if a majority of jurors see grounds for reasonable doubt based on ‘insufficient evidence’.

That’s not too likely, but possible.

The 16 years is arrived at because Knox and Sollecito each received 24 years for Meredith’s murder. Sollecito received an extra year, and Knox an extra two years, for the other crimes for which they were found guilty. 

Our legal advisers tell us that all three sentences seem to be light by American standards.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 12/22/09 at 03:19 PM in Trials 2008 & 2009Guede appeals

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Somehow he comes across a not too smart, but gentle person. No doubt he was interested in Meredith.

I have the feeling he was manipulated into having a date with Meredith and in the heat of the moment he obviously didn´t think and made horrible choices.

He is as guilty as Amanda and Raffaele are.

The reason why he will not change his story, in my opinion, is that any change that comes closer to the truth, only incriminates him more.

Posted by saskia on 12/22/09 at 04:42 PM | #

For me, the evidence that Rudy is not telling the whole truth is:

1) He is clearly lying about having a “date” and “consensual sex” with Meredith. She already had a boyfriend and would not have double-timed him this way. Plus, she told her friends she was going to study and go to bed early, and there was no corroboration of Rudy’s stories about meeting her at Halloween, flirting, etc.

2) Kokomani clearly places Rudy in the vicinity of the other two and the cottage, in some sort of pre-crime planning phase. Although it’s unclear how involved in the premeditation Rudy was, he was participating at some level. He could have run for the Polizia at that point but he didn’t. (I still think he wasn’t the main instigator.)

3) His footprints run directly out the door and he went dancing and never returned for the cleanup and staging. Therefore, he was clearly the “fall guy” for the other two. Which doesn’t excuse him, but it does probably mean that they were more “premeditating” about it than he was.

4) If his lawyers are telling the truth about the blood patterns (information I have no idea of), it would appear that her jeans were not removed until after death by Sollecito. Trying to put this as delicately as I can: the sexual assault, as brutal as it was, could have been more so (apparently). Although that is not mitigating in a legal sense, perhaps it is in a moral sense.

OK, that’s as far as I can go to defend the guy. From 9 p.m. (or whenever he met up with AK that night and knew something was afoot) until Meredith was dead, he did nothing—nada—zip—to protect her. He deserves whatever they give him.

By the way, juliet at http://perugiamurderfile.org has posted an interesting scenario today that I think comes as close as anything I’ve read to piecing together all the evidence to give a coherent story, especially regarding Rudy.

If her scenario is true, they locked up the victim and she was making the thuds Kokomani heard when he drove by. (Rudy explained those as a ‘birthday party’. Perhaps they had also turned on loud music at the house to try to cover the victim’s thrashing noises).

If this scenario is true, it might explain why Rudy will not tell the truth, because then he would be implicated in a kidnapping, which could add a lot of years to his sentence. Just a thought.

Posted by Earthling on 12/22/09 at 04:57 PM | #

BBC Breaking News: *Rudy Guede has his sentence for the murder of Meredith Kercher reduced from 30 to 16 years* No further news as yet

Posted by persephone on 12/22/09 at 06:54 PM | #

Hi Earthling… thanks for that post. Very interesting theory she has, and would also explain why Kokomani’s testimony seemed somewhat strange at the time (the “high on adrenaline” part), because he had some language problems or something, I recall, combined with his inability to explain why he was seeing what he was….

I also wonder, since he supposedly knew Guede, if RG hadn’t summoned him there earlier to do a drug deal, and that some of the fighting with the 3 that he described wasn’t related to that—RS and AK surprised he was there and wanting him gone, and Rudy, now stoned and caught up in the whole mess, wanting to get away from there.


Posted by nashvilletn on 12/22/09 at 07:20 PM | #

Despite the appeal confirming conviction, I believe Rudy is innocent of murder.  Let me explain why.  I know this is a deeply unfashionable opinion but it seems to me that the witness testimony from the trial of Amanda and Rafaele exonerates Rudy of the murder charge.

Firstly, we should ignore the testimony of Hekuran Kokomani as I think his motivation in making up that story was to gain notoriety and I believe this account has zero credibility.

However, there is very credible testimony by the witness Alessandra Formica that has Rudi leaving the cottage at between 2200 and 2230.  It was a memorable event because her partner was almost knocked over by the black guy running away.  There is no reason to doubt her word or her timing.

And later there are two witnesses 1) Nara Capezalli who hears screams at about 2300 and 2) Alessandra Monacchia who hears a long scream between 2300 and 2330.

Dead people do not scream.  I think these screams are the best indication of the time of Meredith’s murder.  So Meredith is clearly alive at 2300, half an hour after Rudy has left the cottage.

All this witness testimony is perfectly credible.  Rudy may be guity of sexual assault, he may even be guilty of wounding Meredith with a knife but he cannot be guilty of murder.

I think we should assume that he is telling the truth with his testimony of another man at the cottage that night.

Posted by audeguy on 12/22/09 at 07:29 PM | #

Hi audeguy…  I personally don’t think he killed her either.

I think regardless of who held the knife the initial wound was a result of the knife being held to her throat by a stoned drunken idiot while two other stoned drunken idiots held her, none of them believing she’d fight or thrash about, but Rudy also said that he held Meredith and tried to stop the bleeding, and that he had never seen so much blood.

If he left a half hour before the scream, that would have been tough. Do you think he is lying about that part?

Am I crazy, or was Kokomani an eastern european dope dealer that claimed to know Guede? I may have gotten him confused with someone else.

Posted by nashvilletn on 12/22/09 at 07:40 PM | #

Sky News seems to have the best English-language report.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 12/22/09 at 08:00 PM | #

Hi nashvilletn, My understanding is that Meredith was found with two towels and a pillow under her.  All with a lot of her blood on them.  So it may be that Rudy is telling the truth here and he put them there.

Posted by audeguy on 12/22/09 at 08:35 PM | #

audeguy: We absolutely know that Guede was there when she was murdered, because of blood evidence: shoeprints, fingerprints, etc.

Just today in the Guardian, it says:

“Police tracked Guede to Germany after finding his handprint in Kercher’s blood. After his arrest, Guede claimed he was at the murder scene but in the bathroom when a man entered the house and killed Kercher.”


I understand your problem with the timeline; I think many have had it. However, we just have to assume that some of those witnesses got their times wrong.

Rudy was there after the fatal blow by his own admission.

Posted by Earthling on 12/22/09 at 09:23 PM | #

Actually Rudy’s story is not totally far fetched. Although I find it a little hard to believe that Meredith would engage in any love or foreplay act with someone like Rudy, however we cannot categorically exclude that possibility. We are all human and we have our moments of weakness (ask Bill Clinton).

Let’s not forget that when he was arrested in Germany he had several cuts in his hands, which, according to several Italian media sources, were very visible in the German police photographs and also when he arrived in Italy. That also would be consistent with his claim that he tried to defend himself from the assailant (Sollecito?) armed with a knife.

Regarding the testimony of Ms. Formica, she couldn’t definitely confirm that the “man of color” who bumped onto them between 10 and 10:30 pm near the carpark, was Rudy. Perugia has a lot of African students and immigrants. Guede and Lumumba are not the only ones. Ms. Formica might have bumped into someone else.

I wonder if we’ll ever know the truth. However, even if his story were true, and he had not committed the murder, Rudy fully deserves the 16 years simply for failing to call medical help and the police when the incident happened. Fleeing the murder scene and not helping Mez, even if he were innocent of the murder, is a crime unto itself. Let him serve time in jail.

Posted by Commissario Montalbano on 12/22/09 at 09:30 PM | #

Agreed. Rudy, just like Amanda and Raf, has changed his story—perhaps not as much, but changed it nonetheless…That implies guilt.

Posted by nashvilletn on 12/22/09 at 09:57 PM | #

He and Amanda know each one something about the other about that night.

She accused Lumumba only to give Guede some extra time to disappear. Maybe with Meredith’s money.

If he wasn’t caught, she was safe.

On another hand, if he talks now, she will say what HE did too.

Am I wrong? Just trying to put things together…

Posted by Patou on 12/22/09 at 10:18 PM | #

No, you’re not wrong Patou. Fact is, Rudy’s sentenced was reduced. It’s done and over with. AK’s appeal has not happened yet so, if Rudy talks, it is possible if he is truthful, their sentence will be confirmed, no reduction? If AK talks, won’t do Rudy any harm…...

Posted by tigger34 on 12/22/09 at 10:45 PM | #

I’m right there with you Patou…

I’ve said before that I believe that each of them have some degree of blackout from hash and alcohol, and aren’t sure what each of the others remember leading up to the stabbing. Many don’t agree, but for me, it’s the only thing that would keep them from completely rolling over on one another—the fear that what they remember the others doing isn’t quite as bad as what the others remember them doing.

Guede can’t say “Meredith was stabbed accidentally by Amanda or Rafaele” without having to admit he doesn’t know which one because he was wasted and molesting her at the time, etc., so he just keeps trying to put them at the scene and hoping for the best…Amanda’s too deeply implicated to budge, and Rafaele, while he may very well be the actual killer, is the only one smart enough to distance himself from the other two…

I just don’t think any of them can put together a coherent account of the events, but each knows they’re guilty, so they just keep hoping the others will slip up first and worse.

Hopefully Rudy’s sentence reduction will begin to pi$$ off Amanda and Raf enough that they will start to sing.

Posted by nashvilletn on 12/22/09 at 10:51 PM | #

By his own admission, Rudy Guede was in the apartment when Meredith was stabbed. It does sound as if his story has an element of truth, but it is not the whole truth. (He may well have been in the bathroom, and this would account for why the toilet wasn’t flushed.) He may even have tried to fight off Raffael and Amanda, which would account for the cuts on his hands. Why he won’t tell the whole story is a mystery to me.

Increasingly, I think Amanda and Raffael are simply psychopaths. Perhaps they didn’t even know they were capable of such horror, but it was in them. Meeting each other and sharing their sick fantasies might have been a trigger for their psychopathic nature to be exposed. Note that Amanda said “remove this mask of a murderess” in court. This is a very strange thing to say for a normal person, but not for someone who has various “masks” for their true nature.

One thing keeps bothering me: the pillow under Meredith’s hips. Why would someone moving a body do this? Could it indicate that DNA evidence was planted in Meredith? The pillow would give a better angle. Perhaps this has been explained, but I can’t find any reference to this. (Please I don’t want to know any exact details, it just strikes me as being something odd.)

I am now curious what the despicable PR campaign of the Knox/Mellas family will make of the sentence reduction.

Posted by CarlosNL on 12/22/09 at 10:57 PM | #

Comment deleted.

Posted by audeguy on 12/23/09 at 12:22 AM | #

Commissario Montalbano writes:

“Regarding the testimony of Ms. Formica, she couldn’t definitely confirm that the “man of color” who bumped onto them between 10 and 10:30 pm near the carpark, was Rudy. Perugia has a lot of African students and immigrants. Guede and Lumumba are not the only ones. Ms. Formica might have bumped into someone else.”

The problem with that the person Ms Formica saw not being Rudy is that that brings forward another assailant that the police have to try and find.  That opens up the whole case again.  But by coincidence of time and place, the over-riding likelihood is that it was Rudy.  And he left, therefore, before Meredith received the fatal blow.

But I do agree with you, leaving her lying there bleeding profusely and not calling an ambulance is a crime in my book too.

Posted by audeguy on 12/23/09 at 12:41 AM | #

audeguy: I think you need to go back to the trial transcripts and re-acquaint yourself with the evidence. Rudy did not leave a bloody footprint on the bathmat, which was in the other bathroom anyway from where he did his “business.” Raffaele left that bloody footprint, according to trial testimony.

In general, you seem to be spinning fantasies about Rudy. I like to stick pretty close to the evidence.

I also don’t appreciate your language and would ask it be edited by the Editor of this site (Pete). Thank you.

Posted by Earthling on 12/23/09 at 01:18 AM | #

Earthling said: “I also don’t appreciate your language and would ask it be edited by the Editor of this site (Pete). Thank you.”.

I’d like to second that. It is highly offensive and just plain disgusting.

Posted by mortytoad on 12/23/09 at 01:40 AM | #

RE: audeguy comment

Earthling said: “I also don’t appreciate your language and would ask it be edited by the Editor of this site (Pete). Thank you.”

Disgusting and so disrespectful. I hope this comment will be removed soon.

Posted by cath on 12/23/09 at 01:45 AM | #

I know that I’m just speculating here, and spouting a hypothetical scenario, but my guts tell me that this started out as a drug deal between Guede, Knox and Sollecito and that Meredith happened to come home unexpectedly and perhaps caught them taking money from her room, causing an argument to ensue, and then the violence broke out.

I think there was already a lot of enmity between Meredith and Amanda, so it didn’t take much to become incendiary. My guts also tell me that Sollecito was the actual killer, and that it was Amanda’s idea to clean up and fake a burglary so as to protect Sollecito, leaving Guede’s evidence and thus make a scapegoat of him. 

Despite Guede being a drug dealer and thief, I do think he tried to help Meredith and I don’t get a sense that there is meanness in him. I do sense that Knox and Sollecito both are selfish, impulsive, conniving, deceitful and each have a mean streak, and that perhaps Sollecito slashed Guede’s hand in anger to prevent him from helping Meredith, as had she lived she would have been able to identify her attacker to the authorities.

I think that Sollecito felt that his family’s wealth and family connections would help to get him out of it, and that he and Knox would both get off if they both stuck to the same story.  Problem was that once they were interrogated separately and asked questions that they hadn’t planned answers for they began to get nervous and make errors so that their stories didn’t corroborate as planned. 

I’m hoping that once they realize they are likely to lose the appeal that perhaps Knox will decide to save her own skin by throwing Sollecito under the bus and bringing some truth out into the open in hopes of getting an acquittal or lighter sentence for herself. Like I said, it’s just a gut feeling, but I wanted to put it out there to see if anyone else is sensing the same thing.

Posted by Mo-in-Mass.,USA on 12/23/09 at 06:03 AM | #

Mo, I agree with a lot of your analysis and really hope that one of RS or AK talks but does anyone think that they will now hope for a similar reduction in their sentences on appeal, so will continue to repeat that they are innocent?

If they talk, they admit their guilt. Neither of them has come close to admitting it yet and I can’t imagine AK will, with her family’s aggressive PR campaign spinning everything to make her the centre of attention, an innocent suffering angel etc. They aren’t going to stop. If she admits she’s guilty, the PR gravy train is over, there’s no chance of making $$$ from it.

Posted by lilly on 12/23/09 at 09:58 AM | #

I think that once Knox realizes that her only way to reduce her sentence is to throw Sollecito under the bus that she will do so.  I don’t see her as a “stand by your man” kind of girl, except when she thought that spouting the same alibi would get her exonerated. 

To try to save face and appease her folks and the PR gravy train she will come up with some hairbrained BS story about why she didn’t originally tell the truth, like how she was so strung out on drugs that she couldn’t remember but “suddenly” has an epiphany of what really happened, or that she was afraid of reprisals by one of the others until she could be certain that they would be behind bars and not get off. 

As for the money issue, she could make even more money by writing a book about the actual details, as there are so many unanswered questions.  Even after paying her due to the Kercher family, she could net enough to repay her folks for the the money they spent in trying to get her exonerated.

Posted by Mo-in-Mass.,USA on 12/23/09 at 01:36 PM | #

Commissario - I totally agree. Rudy’s the only one out of the three to have shown remorse and regret, and to have also addressed Meredith’s family with his apologies. The other two are yet to show any kind of regret or sympathy for her family - which is further evidence of their meanness, as Mo-in-Mass had said.

Mo-In-Mass - Knox won’t talk. Lilly’s right; AK and her family have gone too far now to turn back. This whole PR campaign is not simply geared at freeing Amanda; it is also aimed at exonerating Knox’s family of the charge of having a murderer as a daughter and family-member. Knox and family know that they have the world watching them - they’ve dug their own hole, really, because they caused all this attention themselves. Now they need to do everything they can to exonerate her and their own name to “save face”. Not mentioning that her parents are close to bankruptcy because of the trial - Knox won’t even admit her guilt to them, I don’t think - no after all the money and running-around she’s made them do on her behalf.

Sollecito, on the other hand, and his family, seem to be keeping a lower profile. Family-name and “saving face” is equally important to them. For this reason, I don’t think he’ll talk either - he’ll just have to pursue the lie now no matter what because he’s gone too far too. But…. Sollecito is less transparent than Knox & you never know what he may have rolled under his sleeves.

Posted by Scooby on 12/23/09 at 03:25 PM | #

Agreed with Scooby. Eventhough it seems the only hope to know the truth would be to wait until AK or RS talk, they won’t.

Amanda and family cannot afford the truth anymore. Speak about saving face!

How would they admit they are taking $ from naive supporters, how would they admit they refused to contact the Kerchers (no matter if guilty or not, while Edda - with her unbearable Mater Dolorosa’s look - insists she will do so only when HER daughter is off the hook!), how would they bear their lives after having done such a big “casino” in the medias for ... an unbalanced and dangerous daughter of them?

My last hope is actually Raffaele. But it is thin…

Posted by Patou on 12/23/09 at 04:02 PM | #

I’m pinning my hopes on Rafaele too. Did anyone else think it was odd that following the convictions, Amanda was giving interviews to the media about her life in prison, while Rafaele only issued a statement saying that Amanda was a sweet, naive girl and was incapable or such a horrible crime? It sounded to me like a planned statement to zero the focus in even further on Amanda as being the sole defendant in preparation for the appeal, much as his defense did in closing arguments. Perhaps the strategy is that if his camp continues to speak of Amanda in positive tones, but as if she were the only one on trial, it will lay groundwork for whatever they plan unleash at the appeal?

Just a thought.

Posted by nashvilletn on 12/23/09 at 04:11 PM | #

Scooby - I agree with your analysis of the Knox clan, and would like to add that in addition to having dug themselves into a hole, I really think that on the flip side of that they are loving the attention, the celebrity status, the sudden importance they, the fact that every time they open their mouths, every word they say is repeated, hung onto - the clothes they wear commented on - just like “real” celebrities!

Having a daughter who is a criminal of the worst kind is hardly glamorous.

Having a daughter who is at the centre of world press attention is. And if she is freed, they will make buckets of cash from talk shows, book deals, TV shows.

They are addicted to it, to the headrush they get from it. They can’t face going back to the reality of their ordinary lives, more so as that involves bankruptcy and shame. Truth does not matter to them.

AK won’t talk. I doubt RS will. Rudy has probably been threatened - who knows?  We’ll never find out the truth of this crime, I fear.

Posted by lilly on 12/23/09 at 05:18 PM | #

The Knox/Mellas PR machine has turned this into some sort of hideous reality TV show.

I feel sickened that they are making money out of the murder of Meredith Kercher and basically conning people into giving them that money to fund their appeal.

Is there anyone who can put a stop to this before it becomes fashionable?

Posted by jhansigirl on 12/23/09 at 06:08 PM | #

re: “Did anyone else think it was odd that following the convictions, Amanda was giving interviews to the media about her life in prison, while Rafaele only issued a statement saying that Amanda was a sweet, naive girl and was incapable or such a horrible crime?”

Yes, I thought it was odd, too. I thought about in the terms you brought up, but also thought of it another way, that perhaps he was feeling guilty that she is in this because of the murder that HE committed, with her being an accessory.  I truly feel that it was Raffaele that did the knifework. 

I also keep thinking about the knife with Amanda’s DNA on the handle and Meredith’s on just the tip of the blade.  As they said this knife was too large to have made most of the stab wounds, isn’t it possible that it was only used by Amanda to taunt Meredith, just inserting it slightly like a pricking action, to scare Meredith and be mean?  Or maybe Raffaele used it and was wearing gloves, but Amanda bleached it clean without wearing gloves, leaving her DNA on the handle.

I have also thought that Amanda’s clothing would have become soiled with blood, but then I remembered that there were women’s clothes freshly washed, still in the washing machine.  I’m thinking that the supposed shower that Amanda took (where she said she saw a small amount of blood) was to get Meredith’s blood off of herself, and that’s how Meredith’s blood came to be mixed with Amanda’s DNA in the bathroom, and the clothing in the washer was most likely Amanda’s.  Just part of the overall cleanup that posed the instance of so little of her DNA being found in Meredith’s room…....I’m having stronger and stronger gut feelings about this.  I wonder if we’ll ever know the truth.  I am still hoping that little wussy-boy Raffaele spills the beans even if Amanda’s family has backed her too far into a corner to tell the truth after all the lengths they’ve gone to in extolling her innocence. 

Also, did I read somewhere that Raffaele claimed to be a virgin until he met Amanda?  If yes, isn’t that odd in itself for a young man in this day and age? He does seem to be somewhat “delicate” from what I hear of his state of mind since the verdict was announced.

Sorry to ramble, but these thoughts keep popping into my head, looking for answers.

Posted by Mo-in-Mass.,USA on 12/24/09 at 12:48 AM | #

I thought about the blood that should have soiled the clothing but, isn’t said that the murderers attacked Mez from behind? Therefore, it is possible that most of the blood splatters went the opposite way and did not do much damage on the clothing, could that be possible?

As for no DNA from Amanda in Meredith’s room, it is even weirder than if they had found some. My office chair is full of cats hair, that I bring on my clothing from home, while my cats never went there. Surely, on top of that, Amanda went in Meredith’s room, that would have been a normal thing until they started acting coldly. So, if there is no Amanda’s DNA at all, it is not normal!

Posted by Patou on 12/24/09 at 01:17 AM | #

It doesn’t really matter who delivered the fatal stab wound. If you hold a person while somebody else stabs them, you are just as guilty.

Posted by CarlosNL on 12/24/09 at 02:13 PM | #

Let’s assume that Rudy and Mez had a little flirt like he said and that after that he needs to go to the bathroom.

How can we beleive that he’ll listen to 3 musics on is Ipod sitting on the toilet? Three. This is a lot of time to spend in a toilet, and an awful place to listen to music, sitting on top of what he did (sorry for the image, but we know for sure he did something and did not flush).

It does not make sense, does it?

More likely, he went to the toilet and ran away in a hurry because something was happening in Mez’s room. Not after he had time to listen to 3 musics, which is absurd. Somehow, he then participated, even if not willingly, out of fear, because poor Mez woulds where too mumerous to have been done in a very short moment like he says.

Now, if I recall, when he was arrested, he said he could identify the man he had seen. Then he could not anymore. He can now identify Amanda, but not Raffaele. I wonder if he is not afraid of Raffaele’s family and connections.

Posted by Patou on 12/24/09 at 06:10 PM | #

In a post on 22nd Dec that has now been removed, I used a vulgar term for Meredith’s anatomy.  I offended a number of people by doing so.  I apologise unreservedly to everyone I offended.  Although I never knew her, I honor the memory of Meredith and one of the things I like about this site is that her images are with us on every page.

Posted by audeguy on 12/25/09 at 03:05 PM | #

“My guts also tell me that Sollecito was the actual killer, and that it was Amanda’s idea to clean up and fake a burglary so as to protect Sollecito, leaving Guede’s evidence and thus make a scapegoat of him…”

To respond to your question, I gave up speculating on the events leading up to Meredith’s murder because there were so many variables and so many possibilities. However, one thing that has always stuck with me is the sense that it was Sollecito who actually slashed Meredith’s throat and caused her death.

His fascination and familiarity with knives, addiction to violent pornography, and apparent detachment (it was noted over and over in the media how he calmly viewed all the gruesome evidence presented in court—which Knox did not do) leads me to believe that, more than Knox, he was capable of killing Meredith. 

Another thing that has stayed in my mind is something Knox is reported to have said, something like “I’m not sure of [whatever], but one thing I do know, I didn’t kill Meredith.” I took that to mean that she couldn’t disclose anything else about what happened, because it all implicates her in the crime, but she is confident in saying she didn’t deliver the fatal blow. But even is this is true, so what? 

I think Knox, a manipulative troublemaker seeking to act out her internal drama, ie. resentment of Meredith, was responsible for corralling the guys into play along with her revenge fantasy.

She wouldn’t have thought through the possible consequences of this any more than she thought through the consequences of whipping up a frenzy at her going-away party in Seattle. How fitting that this debacle was her send-off for a journey toward another, albeit far more tragic, disaster.

I don’t think Knox is in any position to “throw Sollecito under the bus.” Someone else with more knowledge of the legal parameters needs to weigh in here, but if Knox was instigator of and participant in the baiting game of terrorizing and torturing Meredith prior to the final blow (including stabbing her with the other, smaller knife), I don’t think that makes her any less guilty of her murder than Sollecito. Again, I am not sure of the legal considerations, but morally, she is just as guilty.

p.s. audeguy, i didn’t see the offending comment, but it clearly warranted a public apology. i appreciate and thank you for having the grace to do so “unreservedly.” we all make mistakes.

Posted by wayra on 12/25/09 at 11:14 PM | #

Being the one who actually delivers the fatal stab or being the one who holds the person being stabbed doesn’t make a difference in terms of being guilty. The crime of “concorso in omicidio volontario aggravato” (concurrent participation in aggravated voluntary homicide) would be applicable to both cases, and the penalties are the same. However judges may apply the “attenuating” circumstances or the “aggravating” circumstances differently to the various players and that might make some difference in the final number of years sentenced to jail.

Posted by Commissario Montalbano on 12/26/09 at 05:34 AM | #

Wayra and Commissario,

I didn’t in any way mean to absolve Knox of any guilt, as I agree that those who participated to any degree are equally guilty, as they are contributors to the outcome.  Perhaps I did not explain myself well enough, but my statement was my feelings on HOW I feel it happened.  I do feel, however, that the violence began with and was led by Sollecito, and I continue to HOPE that Knox, even if only in an effort to lessen her own sentence or unburden her conscience to some degree might “fess up” to some of the details of the truth.  I realize that her family has gone to great expense and a lot of public posturing and lip service, which would bring embarrassment and shame upon them to admit her guilt, but I feel that Knox’s narcissism may cause her to still put herself ahead of anyone else’s interests, if she thinks it will lessen the length of her incarceration.

Posted by Mo-in-Mass.,USA on 12/26/09 at 02:08 PM | #

Hello everyone! I’m new to this site for comments. I decided to register here because of the Knox supporters cruelty on other sites.

My feelings towards Mr. Guede, I think he has a role in this, however, I don’t think it is a greater role as Knox and Sollecito claims.

I personally think that Mr. Guede is terrified of telling the truth. Here’s why, he is a poor individual up against others that come from a more affluent background, also, he is black.

Here in the states, I have a friend that is black. Years ago, he had a passenger in his car. The passenger asked to go to the store to buy cigarettes. The friend waited in the car. The passenger went in the store to rob it. My friend who had no idea what happened until he was arrested as an assessory to robbery. My friend spent 8 years in prison. BTW, my friend had a good job and was attending school at the time, no prior arrests.

I could be wrong. But, I think that Mr. Guede probably was on the toilet when this happened. He got scared and ran. This doesn’t lessen his offense by not calling the ambulance. This doesn’t lessen his offense by fleeing the country.

However, did anyone bother to ask, or, look to see if any weapons were taken during this flight to get rid of the weapons? From what I’ve read, some of the weapons were not found.

Another thing that failed to gather attention, Mr. Elis Prenga, Albanian national. Mr. Prenga made allegations that Ms. Knox raped him (per Perugia Murder File). Mr. Sollecito was alleged to have been a virgin before meeting Ms. Knox. I could be wrong, but, I tend to remember the teachers here in the states arrested for having sex with their students. In addition, there have been cases here in the U.S. where females have been accused of sexual harassment on the job.

I believe Ms. Knox is guilty. I’ve always believed she was guilty. I hope she has to do her time without reduction - 26 years.

Posted by annjell on 12/27/09 at 12:55 AM | #

annjell: About the Knox “supporters”. There seems to be a small group of posters who post very similar posts again and again. They never tire of claiming 1) Rudy Guede was the sole murderer, 2) everyone except Amanda Knox is lying 3) Migneli is a criminal who accused Amanda of a “satanistic orgy” and 4) Amanda and Meredith were good friends (and so there was no possible motive).

The posts are too repetitive to be from genuine supporters. I suspect the posters are either paid for by the Knox campaign or are actually members of the Knox clan. It is still worth countering their claims because people who aren’t familiar with the case will hopefully do some googling and look on sites like this one. But yes, it can be very frustrating. They are absolutely despicable and, as far as I’m concerned, complete scum.

Please don’t let them get you down.

Posted by CarlosNL on 12/27/09 at 01:41 AM | #

It will be a travesty if Knox and Sollecito get their sentences reduced. I sincerely hope Italian Justice will stand firm in its decision and not bow down to the ridiculous Knox PR campaign.

Knox is the common link here, without her the other two would not have even been in the cottage. She has lied, lied and lied again. She cleaned up the crime scene. She accused an innocent man. Her stories are full of holes.

I also don’t believe Guede is as “innocent” as he makes out. His story doesn’t make sense to me.

1) At one point did he not mention that Knox and Meredith started arguing about money, when he was on the toilet?

For this to escalate to murder, it would have to be very loud (disturbing sounds or screams) and probably not quick, so how could he miss this and not intervene?

I think he probably had poor hygiene habits (or drug induced lapse?) and probably visited the toilet earlier that evening and just didn’t flush it. It seems to be red herring, where people assume it was the last thing he did before leaving the cottage and so didn’t flush (in the panic?). But if that is the case, why did his panic only set in when the killers were leaving? Surely the commotion would have been happening long before then, (in other words, in time for him to help Meredith). I don’t believe his toilet alibi.

2) Meredith’s death has been described as being slow, so if he reached her just after the killer was fleeing, possibly he could have even saved her by calling an ambulance? In which case she would be able to name the person who did it. Why would someone run (to another country!!!) if they were innocent?

Also, if he had done this, (assuming for the sake of this argument that he is telling the truth) he could even be a less likely suspect because the murder scene would be untouched (with all Knox / Sollecito evidence - no clean up / no frame up), plus he would be co-operating with police.

3) Was he constipated? (rhetorical question). His story surely requires that he was in there for a very long time.

4) It would seem very unlikely that Meredith would consent to anything with Guede. Reports of her character would suggest that she had good morality. The assault was probably dreamed up by Knox/Sollecito using Guede, who was possibly invited around for that purpose or maybe just became involved after being invited around for drinking / smoking (after bumping into him). So he is surely lying about this point.

5) Was there something wrong with his vision? Why could he only see silhouettes? He heard Knox and Meredith arguing, but only saw Knox’s silhouette leave?

Innocent people don’t need to lie or cover people’s backs. Being accused of murder is serious, whether or not Sollecito’s minions were to come after him, why be branded a murderer if you’re not one? If he told the truth, he could say he feared retaliation from Sollecito’s family and ask for protection. If anything happened to him after that, suspicion would fall one way.

He’s “smart” enough to figure out that if he has quick trial (with his right to silence), even with the obvious conviction, he can appeal later with Knox/Sollecito’s full story in front of him, just in case there is something damning in witness testimony. 

That said, I don’t believe he actually killed Meredith, but I believe he was there the whole time and only made a run for it when Meredith had been fatally struck, with Knox/Sollecito saying they’d pin it on him. It could be they all made a run for it together out of the cottage. Knox/Sollecito going to watch over the cottage (and come up with a plan - e.g. make it look like a break in) to make sure the coast was clear before they got to work, in the clean up, throughout the night.

Knox / Sollecito should have got life (30 years?) and Guede, 20 years (for the quick trial).

All three were guilty of something that night and together their actions caused the death of an innocent girl.

Posted by Poirot on 12/27/09 at 09:51 PM | #

CarlosNL, thanks for your words of encouragement. However, I have been fighting fiercely. Sometimes to the point of slightly changing the topic to throw them off base, or using anologies. Here’s an example of my fighting, at “Amanda Knox guilty but of what?” at telegraph uk - from Dec 7 - up to early this week.

Poirot, I kinda disagree with you. No argument here, I just slightly disagree with you. Here’s why, here in the states, for example, sometimes a cop, judge, doctor can be guilty of violating public trust, or other issues. Sometimes it takes years to get someone willing to investigate, or, for any action to be taken. But most of all, people would rather not get involved and hope it goes away. Sometimes this comes with the attitude, “well, he’ll be retiring soon, so we don’t have to deal with it.”

When you come from affluent backgrounds, most likely it will come with connections, and more money than most of us are accustomed to. Most minority groups can point out injustice(s) they receive at the hands of the more affluent. This could be in the form of the judicial system, education, employment…..

Again, Rudy is a poor, black, individual. I can’t say he is a naturalized citizen, because according to reports, he was informally adopted. He has no family, steady job…any formal ties/stability in Italy. Meanwhile, Mr. Sollecito, come from a wealthy background. His father is a prominent member of society, his sister is/was a police officer. Ms. Knox, her mother is a school teacher, and father is VP of finance at Macy’s department store - Ms. Knox, herself, she was in college.

No matter what part of the world you’re in, if you are not considered a productive member of society, more often than not, you don’t have a voice.

Mr. Guede is smarter than you think he is! If I were in his position, I think I would be smart enough not to just volunteer information. Just recently he was allegedly attacked in prison, right before the appeals trial. My gut tells me it was to send a message.

Posted by annjell on 12/28/09 at 12:59 AM | #

Mo-in-Mass: I understand. Many of us, it seems, are trying to think of ways that one of the three will finally come forward with some reasonable version of the truth of what happened that night.

Commissario Montalbano: I have also considered the possibility that Meredith agreed to see Guede after meeting him on Halloween. However, that means that, within the space of an hour and a half or so, before the assault, she would have had to willingly agree to some kind of genital contact with a virtual stranger. And that, I think, is really, really pushing it. She hadn’t been drinking and she wasn’t high. And she was, supposedly, home alone. Being that sexually available or that cavalier about personal safety (for which she criticized Knox because she brought men she barely knew into the house) just doesn’t sound consistent with who she was, and, in the end, I don’t believe her contact with Guede was consensual.

Posted by wayra on 12/29/09 at 03:23 AM | #

Wayra, I agree with you on this one. I can’t believe Meredith would meet with Mr. Guede. Meredith was so gorgeous, I’m sure she could have just about any man she wanted. Meredith appears to be a young lady who had class, and I just don’t see her sleeping around.

Now, this, I don’t know how important this is, or of this is just a RUMOR. But, at http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/12/end_of_an_affair a poster by the name of Joh, posted on 12-2-2007 @2:50 p.m. Apparently, he made a post (again, I can’t confirm if this is true or a lie) that in Seattle, Amanda ALLEGEDLY staged a prank with some friend wearing ski masks to scare her roommates by staging a break in and that the roommates would be attacked.

With this in mind, and the fact that Amanda can not account for her time. It does make me wonder if they were already in the house before Meredith arrived home. This is just my thoughts.

Posted by annjell on 12/29/09 at 10:27 AM | #

anjell, the skimask prank is a shining example of Knox’s sense of what constitutes “fun”. Why is noone laughing?

But speaking of rumour, what bugged me about the link in your comment was how the comment thread degenerated into a rant on religion. Knox is the opposite of Jewish (don’t know why this Issur character assumed she was), she made a blatantly anti-semitic comment to a coworker in the U-District.

Her sister, Deanna, captioned a shot of AK posing with a gatling gun, “the Nazi”. Her Grandmother, who may be the nicest lady in the world, I don’t know (no, I take that back, since there are on record no sympathetic words for Meredith having issued from her lips) is a German. I don’t know what AK was doing at Hillel events, either, except perhaps sizing up the enemy.

Misrepresentation has been rampant regarding “the real Amanda”, as we well know, but I am not alone in perceiving a racist undercurrent in the crime against Meredith, who was of “mixed race”, and therefore a “mudblood” . Not enough of a reason to take her out, but to someone as shallow and superficial (and superior of bloodline) as Knox, sufficient to make Meredith easier to dismiss as a person.

Haven’t met her (or can’t remember doing, though I have met some of her friends and family) but I have certainly met the type. To me, as well, Meredith was gorgeous, and Knox underdone (half-baked??) And the racist garbage that spewed on various comment threads immediately following the murder reinforced the idea that there are many who couldn’t care less how many people AK killed, she’s still “Miss America”.

I was born in the USA, and raised here for 2/3 of my 24 1/2 years, but I am still asked “what” I am. That does not ever happen in America to people who look like the Knox girls.

mimi khounsary

Posted by mimi on 01/01/10 at 04:49 AM | #

Rudy Guede didn’t kill Kercher…yeah OKAY.  Some of you think that he sexually assaulted her and then just left.  What about the fact that he confessed to holding her while she was bleeding to death? And what about the fact that the bloody handprint under the pillow was his? (which indicates she was bleeding while he was having sex with her).  Or…what about the fact that when he was first question told the police that AK and RS weren’t there?  If they were there, why would he only implicate himself?  Or…what about the fact that he told an inmate that he killed Kercher and that a person, unknown to the investigation, was there and helped him?  Why is it that only at his appeal does he say AK and RS were there, and then get a reduced sentence?  Why if he didn’t kill Kercher didn’t he call the cops when she was bleeding to death, why did he go to a club and party afterwards?  Why did he go to Germany?
Just to let you know, the prosecutor is corrupt. He is a witch hunter, he is obsessed with cults.  He has tried this sex orgy bit in court on 20 other people!! He was just convicted of making up evidence at trials (more than 3) and abusing his prosecutorial powers. I think that shows he wanted to make this case into something more.  there is no evidence to place AK or RS at the scene of the crime, only Rudy GUede.  Noone can clean up just their DNA and leave somebody else’s.

Posted by Mary_89 on 10/17/11 at 10:34 PM | #

Hi Mary. Guede was convicted for murder and we havent taken issue with that. That was his handprint for sure. He did not call for help when maybe he could have. All of them initially pointed the cops away from one another. Wait a few days and all of them had implicated each other. Guede’s reduced sentence was automatic for the short-form trial and not a deal or reward.

Mignini merely argued what he saw which was a sex crime or a staged sex crime, nothing more.  Rogue prosecutors dont happen in Italy when there are well respected co-prosecutors (Comodi) and so many magistrates to convince. Mignini’s provisional conviction (two appeals to come) was for controversially authorized wiretapping and not a big deal (no prison and no loss of job). He explains in interviews we have run.

We’d be curious to see proof of an obsession with cults or witches. Talk of a cult in the MOF case was out there years before he came along. A majority of the MOF books in Italy suspect some cult could have been involved. His caseload is pretty mundane.

Posted by Peter Quennell on 10/18/11 at 12:33 AM | #

Hi Mary,

If you want to be taken seriously on TJMK, I politely suggest that you start supporting your opinions with some actual proof. Where is your proof that Guede told an inmate that he had killed Meredith? I hope you’re not relying on the testimony of the convicted baby killer Mario Alessi who said that he didn’t know Tommaso Onofri and didn’t seem to be aware that he had been given a life sentence for his murder.

Incidentally, Rudy Guede first implicated Knox and Sollecito in Meredith’s murder in November 2007. It’s always a good idea to get your facts straight before commenting on the case.

Furthermore, Mignini has never been convicted of making up evidence at trials . The only thing you have proved is how ignorant and gullible you are.

Posted by The Machine on 10/18/11 at 04:25 AM | #

Mary, Mignini may have a somewhat theatrical presentation style, but it was not he who convicted Knox, nor he who determined her sentence. And it was Mignini, following proper protocols, who suspended the interview (in the wee hours, when Knox had volunteered her presence at the Questura and then, stupidly, volunteered her confessed “presence” at the cottage) for her own protection, because she transformed herself from witness to suspect.
Even Massei (who pronounced her guilt and dealt the sentence), was not fully in agreement with Mignini’s take on the events of that night. Have you taken any time to read his report, or do you consider it a waste of your time because he is obviously as corrupt as the rest of the Italian Judicial system? What about Micheli? What do you think of Hellman (The Nice Judge)‘s admission, post-acquittal, that “the REAL truth may be different—that perhaps AK and RS also know” what happened that night??
Since you may have access to the star witness (just a guess) why don’t you ask her why she was so"concerned about this knife of Raffaele’s”? And why she nearly collapsed into total freakout when the police asked her if any knives were missing from the kitchen drawer?

Posted by mimi on 10/18/11 at 05:17 AM | #

Mary, your post is so emblematic it should be framed. I love it. But it would be a more interesting discussion if you would come back with a step-by-step reconstruction of how Guede could have committed the crime, either by himself or with some mystery accomplice.

Posted by brmull on 10/18/11 at 05:57 AM | #

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