Knox Interrogation Hoax #10: Why Prosecution And Defenses Never Believed Knox’s Version #1

Comments

Selene Nelson has written a brilliant article about the PR campaign for The Huffington Post:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/selene-nelson/amanda-knox-pr_b_5694432.html

Please tweet and retweet. Thanks.

Well done Selene. She’s taking CNN and Huffington Post by storm and has another piece in the works. Breaking News box at top.

Knox has only seen her Italian lawyers once since Judge Hellmann set her free late in 2011.

The Interrogation Hoax goes way back. We can date when it starts: when she wrote a note to her lawyers on 9 November 2007, the day after meeting with her lawyers for the first time, in front of Judge Matteini, who wrote the report we quoted in the previous post.

Knox attempted to perpetuate the hoax in court in July 2009. No cigar.  Then Knox attempted to perpetuate the hoax at the Hellmann appeal. No cigar. For the false framing of Patrick, she served three years.

For the false framing of the cops who were there on 5-6 Nov she has served nothing yet, though calunnia charges were filed against her and her parents long ago..

The first time that all of this meant anything in Italy (the hoax was kept below the radar there) was in mid 2013, when Knox gave Oggi an interview, claiming the cops manipulated her. Investigation of that claim goes on.

Italy has not yet turned to examining the guts of her 2013 book. If she is finally convicted, and heads back without a huge row over extradition, our guess is they just might not.

Knox’s lawyers did finally did catch up with her late in 2013 just before the Nencini appeal . They met face to face with her for a week in Seattle.  What happened then?

We now suspect (no hard proof) that they wanted her to come back to Florence, and make nice to the judge, and tell the truth, or as much as might help her in some way.

Of course, instead, she sat on her hands in Seattle, and fired off an insulting email from afar.

Its these two items the post talks about that could have given her cold feet, made her refuse to go. Knock the props out from under this hoax, as these items really do, and all the PR hoaxes collapse.

So there is a lot riding on this.

Hi, all. You may have seen people referring to Professor Peter Gill’s book, “Misleading DNA Evidence, Reasons For Miscarriages Of Justice” by Elsevier Books. I’ve been posting a series of critiques on PMF Net and Twitter, as well as carry on some running battles with the Friends Of Amanda Knox, who, instead of acknowledging Gill’s many errors of fact, chose to make personal attacks.

I promised to write a full report on the book that will be available later in the fall. In the mean time, here’s a summary of my findings, in case any one wants to have a look or use in any online debate. http://www.perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?p=122565#p122565

It is really embarrassing that a person of his stature should so easily be caught out in errors about the case but also, his views on the DNA evidence of the case.

On North American TV there is a show called Forensic Files. On the show last night and during repeats there was a profile of Christine Paolilla who with her boyfriend Chris Snider who killed Rachael Koloroutis and Tiffany Rowell and their boyfriends. 

Paolilla and Snider killed them even though the two girls had befriended Paolilla who was consumed with obsessiveness and jealousy and needed drugs. The killings were done with such brutality that police concluded there was deep seated hatred and sexual envy. After the shooting Paolilla realized that Koloroutis was still alive
and bashed her friends head in as with a pistol butt while she choked upon her own blood. 

The two girls were the only source of money with which to buy drugs that the two perps knew of.

Sound Familiar?

Christine Paolilla was bullied in high school since she wore wigs to hide the fact she was bald which she had been since childhood and the two girls took her under their wing and showed her how to use makeup so that in the end Paolilla was voted ‘Miss irresistible’ by her class mates

The parallel between Knox, Sollecito and Paolilla and Snider is obvious. Jealousy, The need to get money to buy drugs, vicious desire to control, and deep feelings of intellectual inferiority, and the desire to control men through sex.

Paolilla has been sentenced to 40 years in jail, while Snider committed suicide.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/never-see-them-again-m-william-phelps/1103264828?ean=9780786024865

On another note while reading some of the FOA blogs it is more than apparent that they, without exception, are driven by emotion rather than logic. With the exception of Steve Moore and Bruce Fischer plus Curt Knox/Chis Mellas who are in it for the money anyway, the others are such a rabid lot who refuse to even acknowledge any information contrary to their beliefs of innocence.

Heavey is a prime example who, just like George Barlow with Jodi Arias are blinded by a weakness in their logic. Heavy of course because his daughter went to the same school. The hysteria in the FOA is best exhibited by Michelle Moore of course. There are others who hide behind their names and switch them from time to time in order to try to convince others that there is more of them than the diminishing bunch.

In conclusion I can see a huge turn around because the news services could care less about guilt or innocence just a good story. Of course there will be fight concerning extradition but in the end Knox will be quietly whisked away before too many people hear about it.

Comment on Selene Wilson’s article on Huffington Post

Naseer Ahmad ·  Top commenter · Works at Around the world, really.

“I was in Rome last year to attend the Supreme Court hearings. Coming back on a Trastavere street car one night, with hordes of drunk, high, AMERICAN students talking about the parties they went to the previous night and the party they’re going to the next night, you really want to pull back commentary just a little bit. Long time Rome residents are tired of the behavior of American students cutting loose from parental supervision, though judging from their behavior, they probably weren’t supervised all that well back home either.

Right on the anniversary of Meredith’s murder, three years ago, an American student high on drugs pulled out a knife and stabbed his room mate several times. Thankfully, no PR to absolve him by blaming the host country.

If you can’t guarantee your little darlings won’t abuse the laws of whatever country they go to, keep them at home.”

Come on and join the debate, the water’s fine, no sharks here (though lots of minnows)

Hi Ergon

Great list. Should the Carabinieri lab findings be there too? They were scathing on C&V and found the sample they tested in an unlocked kitchen-type fridge. .

There is some investigation of C&V and Hampikian prompted by the Supreme Court. Gill sure was daft to turn up during that - or was he enticed in unwittingly to aid them in a tough time?

@Graham Rhodes

The people supporting Knox on various sites are almost without exception totally and congenitally stupid. They are best avoided, seriously.

As Mark Twain said,“never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

Hi, Peter, Gill doesn’t even refer to the Carabinieri report because he focuses on trace 36-B of the knife. However I will be mentioning the problems with C&V as well in my report.

Serendipitously, had a query from one of our members: “This may sound silly but was C&V’s report actually officially discredited via a scholastic essay or scientific report?”

My reply:

“Hi, friend, specific to your question and to my knowledge, no. C&V and Stefanoni are competing scientific reports, and both now end up in the courts, where a judge must compare the two and adjudicate which has the greater merit.

It is not a question that can be answered by an outside expert who has not testified or been cross examined. Even experts make errors, and only a rigorous examination under oath can determine that.

Therefore, since the question of competing merit can only be judged by a court, the honest way to determine which side is correct is read the judge’s report as how the evidence was collected and analyzed. That Gill failed to do that is shocking and unprofessional.

PS: You need to read the specific criticisms of C&V in the Supreme Court report. It is damning. Essentially saying they are idiots, incompetent.”

Hi Ergon

American students cause deaths in Italy almost every year. We have reposted reports on several of them.

We have also posted a finding that average alcohol intake jumps, and the Italian theory that some students are overmedicated for ADS etc before they arrive and when they go off their meds bad things can result.

I have long suspected Knox headed to Perugia almost exclusively for the drugs and her study such as it was didnt matter a damn. Her parents okayed this and have long been given a free pass.

Very true I flew into Rome Leonardo da Vinci airport a couple of years ago. On the ground transportation into Rome were a group of American Students. The most foul mouthed loud bunch of idiots you can imagine. Talk about embarrassing. everybody else just ignored them.

Hi Ergon and Grahame

Interesting. Italians are prone to a good time but what some US students do is on another plane.You have seen these maybe?

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/report_students_studying_abroad_on_average_double_or_triple_their_alco/
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/destructive_partying_of_american_kids_leaving_italians_seriously_baffl/
http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/an_american_student_kills_62_years_old_retired_bankteller/

Here’s one of the latest reports; not a murder but lots of alcohol and in this case an American died:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/01/rome-s-deadly-pub-crawls-kill-american-college-student.html

Many more resources were put into fighting drugs in Perugia after Meredith died. Easy risk-free drugs there are long gone.

******

On the Paolilla/Snider murders Grahame describes, Paoililla was said to have in effect sexually mutilated both women victims because of jealousy.

All the foolish profilers (Saul Kassin, John Douglas, Jim Clemente) working to get Knox off say the crime fitted the profile of Guede. But it didnt.

Not one of them have a REAL description of the crime against Meredith, which included 15 minutes of torture, sexual humiliation, and removal of her phones and locking of door.

No way that fits the crime of a burglar caught in the act, as with Paolilla it was maniac jealousy and hatred - in fact, the profile fits the suspected mindframe of Knox to a tee.

Not that people take this profiling too seriously; none of it is taken as main evidence in court. Kassin, Douglas and Clemente try to hide that.

Hello,
I’ve been following this case right form the start and every now and then check in here to see what’s up; I have also posted a few times.
I am quite convinced of AK’s guilt, especially due to her tying herself up in knots with her lies the first few days.
What I have never understood, though, is the lack of her DNA in the murder room. Is there any plausible explanation for this?
Keep up the good work!
Lamaha

Hi, lamaha. DNA is not easily found in any environment, even at a murder scene, which to be factual, is not just Meredith’s room, but, the cottage. The main sources are blood, semen, saliva, sperm, skin cells. Unless Knox and Sollecito bled in the room, it is unlikely to be found, but, his DNA was found on Meredith’s bra, and she bled in several places around the cottage.

If Guede climbed through the window, how come none of his DNA was found in Filomena’s room?

Still, there was no ‘selective cleaning’ of DNA. But there was a clean up of blood, and, suspiciously, very few fingerprints were found in the cottage.

“Knox” bled in several places.

Another underlying theme in this case is race, and the reporting on this case, American media in particular is affected by it.

Still, here’s an interesting article in The Root:

http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2012/02/white_women_and_blame_a_black_man_syndrome.html

White Women and ‘Blame a Black Man’ Syndrome

The tradition of white women falsely blaming black men for their own crimes must end.

By: Nsenga K. Burton, Ph.D. : Feb. 1 2012

“Amanda Knox blamed a black man when she was accused by Italian police of killing her roommate. Her false accusations left the falsely accused Diya “Patrick” Lumumba, a local business owner, ostensibly bankrupt.”

Selene Nelson did a great job on her HuffPo article. She is excellent. The comments section is full of Knox nutcases.

No worry, the nuts are roundly trounced and put in their place by the deft hand and cheerful personality of a top commenter named Naseer Ahmad. He is a master of the solid and unexcitable argument. Witty but firm. Great style, like Selene Nelson’s in a way. He keeps his cool at all times when responding to the most outlandish comments.

Bruce Fischer throws out a few lame taunts at him and all things pro-Meredith. Joseph Bishop is there in all his nuttiness. Michelle Moore dishes her odd threats of libel.

Selene, please don’t listen to criticism from people blinded by the Marriott spray paint.

@Ergon

Totally agree with your posts above, especially with regard to racism.

Overall, one has to ask, what’s really going on, how come this is not seen as a total bloody farce? (answers on a postcard please)

I hope and believe that everyone with any sense will realise that a great crime was committed, courtesy of the totally lost, incredibly juvenile and quite pathetic little girl (aka American “beauty”)and her equally pathetic little nut case boy friend with a predilection for animal porn. What a couple of creeps.

Even more scary is the way that your average American doesn’t get to hear all this. This is probably the deep story here. “Amerika”, you couldn’t make it up (except in nightmares). The poor dears, on some level they really ache for some historical roots while demanding the freedom to make up the “news”, lay waste to the world, grab the natural resources ,while pretending to spread democracy. Devilishly clever.

“America is a mistake, admittedly a gigantic mistake, but a mistake nevertheless”. Sigmund Freud.

Well…a big well done to Pete, and all the other Americans here, who have selflessly and consistently worked to counter-act and rectify the inclinations of the unthinking masses.

We thank you for holding out for justice for our lovely British girl.

True. I hope and believe that Pete and other Americans here are intelligent enough to understand that when I speak about “America”, I mean a certain state of mind which is exemplified by their reflexive news censorship. I have American friends who frankly acknowledge this - without fuss.

Naturally, I wouldn’t want to upset America per se (heaven forbid). Not without taking cover anyway.

Hi lamaha

About the DNA found or not found in Meredith’s room. Just to add a key fact in support of Ergon’s explanation: Meredith’s room per se was not tested for DNA, merely some items in it.

The choice had to be made whether to test for DNA or fingerprints, and fingerprints was chosen - resulting as Ergon said in none at all found in the room including Knox’s lamp and few elsewhere including none in Knox’s own room. (PMF dot Org has been discussing the few prints and there are some charts there.)

So the frequent claim that there was an absence of Knox or RS DNA in Meredith’s room is wrong; in truth nobody knows.

Hi Odysseus

There’s no censorship per se that I can see. Its more complicated than that. Here you go:

1) A certain level of national paranoia has been “normal” since Pearl Harbor, the cold war and McCarthy & some spies, UFOs being “invented” to hide secret development of advanced planes, assassination of JFK, the forced draft for Vietnam, Reagan etc demonizing the government, a high murder rate and drugs, and of course 9/11 (“we really do have enemies among us”).

2) Lack of growth-sharing for most people and real poverty in much of the US as all new growth results are grabbed by people at the very top, some of whom then manipulate the politics to make it seem this is the government’s fault so all governments are suspect. (Many FOA who dont gave fast-track careers buy this.)

3) All media increasingly struggling to keep market share and cable news networks only just keeping afloat. News desks around the world closed down for budget reasons including in Italy. An increasing tendency by media to use fright to grab eyeballs; see the Michael Moore documentary “Bowling for Columbine” for a powerful presentation on this and why people buy guns.

4) In Italy’s case the mafia movies (“Godfather”) and TV series (“Sopranos”) most involving Italian Americans like Scorsese, Coppola, and Di Nero caused no end of harm even though the US mafia is pretty well gone, suppressed in part by other Italian Americans like Giuliani. (Ironically, though its murky several Italian mafia fellow-travelers happy to see Italian justice in discomfort have roles here on the AK/RS side.) 

5) Especially important US TV normally taking the VICTIM’s side but mostly not here because of a vacuum of counterbalancing info from official Italy to go up against the rabid PR which found it could say anything it wanted. Nancy Grace and the other legal commentators almost always come down on the victim’s side - she did here, twice, as did more than 40 other reporters and talking heads.

6) Few here realise that the Hellmann court really was bent. Many think Knox really did get off fairly and then got roped back in unfairly. In Italy it is quite plain that court was bent - people spoke out about it - and initially Hellmann was pushed into retirement and the bent verdict referred to Cassation and the Florence court to correct. Marriott claimed the Hellmann verdict was HIS doing but other than maybe knowing how the court was bent it was nothing of the sort.

7) And most important THE FINAL VERDICT IS NOT IN. After that, the legal constraints will be all gone. We are already seeing some US media jubilant that Knox is getting a few in the eye from Sollecito and the drug-dealer tales. Books are in the works on Knox psychology.

Finally for the poor Kerchers as much as anyone this thing should end up with justice being done and seen to be done, and official US having a role in that.

So we made the challenge in the post at the top too easy? We need bigger prizes? Or what?!

The two items are right there in Hoax Posts #2 to #4 especially, to narrow it down, though you may have to connect up some dots to see what dangerous sleepers for Knox they are.

Neither is in Knox’s book, if that helps. We’ll quote what she did claim and in light of those items you’ll see how absurd that was.

Hi Peter

Thanks for that. I take your point that it’s not the kind of overt or conscious censorship exercised by totalitarian states: as you say, official US may well actually have a role in seeing that justice is done in this case.

On one level it’s a kind of self-censorship. It’s dispiriting (to me) how generally misinformed the public seem to be in America about what is really going on elsewhere in the world, and I don’t see any clamour for that to change. There doesn’t seem to be much interest basically,  sufficient numbers having apparently bought that “it’s the economy stupid” and everything else can go to hell in a handcart. This is of course a generalisation and I’m aware there are very many with high ideals who aren’t so determinedly materialistic.

Anyway, moving right along as they say, roll on justice for the victim, of course.

Hi Odysseus

Its a systemic thing. Nobody means harm. Apart from the anti-science crowd which might be of real concern nobody diverts or switches the information flow off. Small countries where the level of English is high seem to me to be most global (Scandinavians and especially Netherlands; Hong Kong; Singapore). 

I’d say that at the professional/postgraduate level most people follow global trends as much as any similar group in the world. Certainly on the east and west coasts. There is a big advantage in having things in English, in most countries (Italy included) the news is more sparse because every word has to go through translation.

The US internally generates as much news as Europe and to chomp your way through that can be hard work. Then theres the various national sports which can grab peoples’ attention a lot. And most people get only very short vacation time, on average only 1/2 that of Europe. 

I was invited in at federal level (by congress) to help guide the development of rolling planning by the federal departments specifically because so few Americans had experience of that. The US muddled its way to high growth for many years - and so I necessarily talk to large groups about how many other countries do it, and while many Americans might have said years ago “Huh! What relevance is that model to us?” I never hear that said now. Japan’s former “supergrowth” opened many economic and business eyes.

The next logical step in world progress would be for groups of countries to network on better systems for growth (though not on the lines of the EC!). When you say “its the economy stupid” it really is - higher-plane economies have resources to do things like phase out coal and educate everyone more and revive cities. They consume scarce resources less. The US is pressing hard on fuel efficiency and emissions and recycling, and acid rain is a thing of the past. Cigarette smoking is way down now.

And in our Perugia case wait and see what happens when the verdict comes in. On Knox media really have cooled. Despite the Hate Italy crowd, for most people Italy is still a great brand.

@ergon,

This comment is with reference to Peter Gill’s book- no, I have not purchased the book nor plan to read the 100 odd pages. Just out of curiosity, I looked up on scopus and he has an impressive list of publications (that simply means more than mine) on the subject. His work is consistent and systematic (unlike our Idaho Professor) and I shall blindly accept his opinion on the DNA evidence.

On the other hand, I believe he is no expert on contamination and what I see on the amazon site product description (This book reviews high-profile and somewhat contentious cases to illustrate these points, including the death of Meredith Kercher. It examines crucial topics such as characterization of errors and determination of error rates, reporting DNA profiles and the source and sub-source levels, and the essentials of statement writing). I believe the product description is provided by the author himself.

Does he explicitly deny that the DNA sample present on the bra clasp is from Sollecito? Does he similarly say that the DNA sample found on the knife is from Meredith? Or, is he simply insisting that the samples found on the bra clasp or the knife arrived from elsewhere?

In the later case, we must give credit to the PR agency. I am just curious to see the acknowledgements page of his book- who fed him the information.

Thanks, Ergon. I accept that explanation.

Chelsea Hoffman just published a good supporting article for Selene Nelson:

Is the Amanda Knox PR machine misleading Americans?

August 24, 2014

http://www.examiner.com/article/is-the-amanda-knox-pr-machine-misleading-americans

@Pete : ‘what are these items?’

Maybe we’re scared of getting it wrong!
I’ve re-read #2-4, and thought of several things - but they seem too obvious.

Hi SeekingUnderstanding

See next post today. Yes they are obvious if one reads that testimony (“hiding in plain sight”).

However few here had done so before we posted the translation. They also conclusive as the defenses always knew.

Hi, chami, maybe it was a typo, but I wouldn’t ‘blindly accept Gill’s DNA evidence’ without actually reading the book, just saying 😊

Nor does his ‘characterization of errors and determination of error rates, reporting DNA profiles and the source and sub-source levels’ address the question of guilt or innocence.

Anyhow, his sources are the Conti-Vecchiotti Report and the Hellmann Motivations Report, which he quotes approvingly without referring to the Supreme Court Report which disputed their reasoning.

The idea for the book arose from his attendance at a meeting in Rome organized by Vincenzo Pascali in 2012, entitled “the hidden side of DNA profiles” (Pascali used to be Sollecito’s DNA expert until he quit, because of disputes with the legal team) so I doubt his source was a PR agency, but if so, then more shame him.

He agrees that RS DNA is on the bra clasp, but suggests it may have been transferred there by the action of RS grabbing the outside door knob
and the Scientific Police touching that, then transferring it by handling the bra clasp. That is tertiary, not secondary transfer.

He disputes Massei’s characterization of Meredith’s DNA being there as a consequence of stabbing, and claims it more likely was there because of ‘contamination’. That is, he says, because it was transported in a ‘shoe box’ which may have been contaminated. Clearly he hasn’t really read Massei’s Report or Inspector Finzi or Gubbiotti’s evidence on the box and how the knife was transported.

Yet in three specific instances, including the title, he calls the Meredith Kercher murder case “a miscarriage of justice” without proving it.

His conclusion: “in the Death Of Meredith Kercher, where the investigator retrieves DNA profiles from a premises; assumes it to be from a perpetrator. Confirmation bias takes over and the association fallacy is used to construct an illogical chain of events that are prosecution biased”.

I don’t know how he could conclude that, he doesn’t seem to have read Stefanoni’s Scientific Police Report.

@ergon

I read differently.

“He agrees that RS DNA is on the bra clasp, but suggests it may have been transferred there by the action of RS grabbing the outside door knob”- the suggestion is his personal opinion but the first 10 words come from the scientist.

“... and claims it more likely was there because of ‘contamination’”- so he does not deny that Meredith’s DNA is on the knife, right? How it got there is not the business of a DNA specialist.

Anyway, I am just curious to know whether he provided any explanation on HOW he arrived at this conclusion? I am talking about the transfer of DNA from RS hand to the bra clasp. If he is suggesting a route via the door knob, then perhaps he should tell us how a tiny sample survived for so long on the door knob as perhaps dozens of people must have touched the door knob in the meantime.

Perhaps he will admit the mistake of shoe box. But I want to make a distinction between the DNA expert and the contamination expert.

But I like “in the Death Of Meredith Kercher, where the investigator retrieves DNA profiles from a premises; assumes it to be from a perpetrator. Confirmation bias takes over and the association fallacy is used to construct an illogical chain of events that are prosecution biased” - he is no more talking like a scientist. It has nothing to do with DNA and perhaps he should have restricted his comments to his area of specialization!!

Where next:

Or to next entry False Claims By Amanda Knox & The Book Team May End Up Costing Them Millions

Or to previous entry Italian Reporting Of Prolonged Knox/Cocaine-Dealer Connection; Media Digging