Boiling Frustration Leads Many To Kill: The Possible Parallels Of The Lord Lucan Case

Comments

Sharp eye Odysseus who first referred us to this famous UK case under a post by SeekingUnderstanding saying we must learn to pick dangerous traits.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/the_case_for_more_observation_and_firmer_action/

Poor functionality and a slow dive amid chaos all around. $10 million burned through. And a killer groupie to make the psychological parallel almost complete

http://www.lordlucan.com/lucan_story.htm

Interesting that Odysseus picked the Caravaggio version of the many paintings of Narcissus for his post!

An amazing painter who was immensely influential in the years after his death for the three-dimensional renderings of his figures and his stark darks and lights. Titian, Bellini, Rembrandt…

NYC and Washington DC have large collections of Italian art but not a lot of Caravaggio’s work ever made it out of Italy (I wonder why?!) and I think there are none in DC and only a couple in NYC.

Caravaggio by the way followed an arc not unlike Lucan’s: after killing someone in one of his many fights he took off in a hurry to Malta. He returned to Italy’s west coast, and was on a voyage to receive a pardon in Rome in exchange for several paintings when suddenly not yet 40 he died.

His madness may have come from the lead in his paint. He was not the only painter to end up decidedly a bit odd - the US only banned lead in paint in the 1970s.

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2013/11/how-important-is-lead-poisoning-to-becoming-a-legendary-artist/281734/

Pete

Sandra Rivett and Meredith do seem similar in many ways. Meredith was perhaps from a more middle-class background but both were clearly attractive and <u>uncomplicated</u> young women who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time -  and both have mostly been forsaken by the ever venal media.

Very sad.

With Reference to Knox it’s called ‘Disassociation from Reality’ This is of course the true symptom of the true sociopath who sincerely believe that

(1) They are alone in world and therefore able to do whatever they wish without having to answer to anybody for their actions. and

(2) Everybody else of no consequence since they are only there to provide supporting roles and therefore to be used until the next convenient person comes along.

Consider all of Knox dealings with anyone else including Sollecito who was the flavor (sic) of the moment. This includes Patrick Lamumba, Guede and especially Meredith Kercher not to mention everyone else in the house.

Consider the comment by Knox that she (in essence) could allow any of the girls to have any of the boys downstairs since, if she wanted, she could have them all. Consider the various strangers she brought back to the apartment for sex which must have, at the least, annoyed everyone living there even to the point of everyone in the house wanting her to leave.

Convenient therefore that she picked Sollecito because I believe that was about ot happen.  In other words she picked Sollecito so she would have somewhere to stay. After all he was just another sex partner in a long series of sex partners who was to be used until she found someone better. Then there is the drug dealer who she had sex with elsewhere possibly in payment for drugs or the others on the train who she had sex with because she could.

This is how sociopaths operate since they are incapable of admitting to themselves that anything of a negative incident took place at all. Knox in court wearing ‘All you need is love’ means that she fully expected to walk out of the court a free woman since that kind of behavior had always worked for her before. After all she had given the cops a list of people and therefore she was off ‘Scott Free’. (see picture above)

Consider how she flirted with officers of the court refusing to believe that such a thing as Meredith being murdered was a serious matter but one to taken as a joke. Since she was high when she killed Meredith being sober meant there was a psychological gap between the murder and the court proceedings so dissociation for her was easy which incidentally it always has been. It was only later that anything really sunk in.

Even then it became of no consequence since she refused to associate with any of the other girls in Capanne. The tears at the airport upon her return to the US were for her audience after all and I have no doubt she will become a very good writer of fiction during her 28 and a half years since she lives in a dream world of her own making.

Grahame was professionally up against deranged and fanatical people more than most of us. He has a major piece coming up in the New Year on what drives groupthink and the groupies.

We have long noted that at least some of Knox’s groupies tend to have similar psychological traits (and brushes with the law, and inability to hold good jobs) in common.

So we tend to presume, probably rightly, that they are going to battle for someone who they see as one of their own. They have a fear of being looked on as potential murderers.

In this case though the opposite happened.

http://truejustice.org/ee/index.php?/tjmk/comments/a_case_in_which_the_accuseds_team_used_a_psychological_condition/

Whereas a mental condition formed no part of Knox’s defense, and the use of drugs only a small part, Durst’s lawyers got him off for dismembering a neighbor in Texas specifically because he was/is autistic.

That did not go over at all well with others who had self-diagnosed that they might have the same condition. The fear of being looked on as potential murderers.

So there is a huge vested interest, quite possibly among many thousands, in not ever conceding that Knox was in any way not normal.

Curt Knox who has issues of his own skipped anger counseling recommended by the Superior Court judge when Edda took him to court for not paying child maintenance. 

He bitterly denies that anything is wrong with Knox, and said on her return to Seattle that any counseling was quite out of the question.

SeekingUnderstanding suspects that the Knox mentaility is maybe too far gone now for her ever to pull back to normality. Instead of titilating herself via drugs etc, she is now titilating herself by making the groupies slobber over her.

One advantage to her spending time in a US prison rather than an Italian prison is that she would not have easy access to the media.

She had massive access to the media in Capanne (Sollecito even blogged from there) and had a constant stream of visitors like MP Rocco Girlanda who headed out and rhapsodised about her.

But of course Italian prisons try to correct mental conditions, whereas US prisons hardly have that reputation.

Lord Lucan disappeared into obscurity. Will that be Amanda Knox’s fate?

@ Serendipity; the current NEJM has a Review:
“Conduct Disorder and Callous–Unemotional Traits in Youth”

The term “conduct problems” refers to a pattern of repetitive rule-breaking behavior, aggression, and disregard for others…...

Youth conduct problems are predictive of an increased risk of substance abuse, criminal behavior, and educational disruption; they also incur a considerable societal burden from interpersonal suffering and financial costs…...

{It may begin by 2 years of age, and may be established by 10 years of age; Think Knox & RS - folie a deux?}

Current research on conduct problems focuses heavily on psychopathic traits, labeled as “callous–unemotional” when referring to such traits in youth, which include reduced guilt, callousness, uncaring behavior, and reduced empathy…...

.... Callous–unemotional traits, which occur in fewer than half of young persons with conduct disorder, identify a subgroup with distinctive clinical features and neurocognitive perturbations. As compared with youth with conduct disorder who show remorse, empathy, and concern about school performance, those with callous–unemotional traits have a poorer prognosis and treatment response…

For children with long-term behavioral problems, signs of conduct disorder often arise by early school age, but few children meet the full criteria for the disorder before 10 years of age. These early signs involve aggressive tendencies, impulsivity, and failure to comply with requests, which are features of attention deficit–hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) and oppositional–defiant disorder (see the Glossary)

.....Like ADHD and oppositional–defiant disorder, callous–unemotional traits are expressed early. Such traits have been identified in children as young as 2 years of age, and among young children with conduct problems, they predict a particularly early onset of a severe, persistent variant of conduct problems.

Once the diagnosis of conduct disorder is established, the prognosis is usually considered to be poor, though the outcome varies. Antisocial personality disorder, which has a particularly poor prognosis, develops in slightly less than 50% of patients with conduct disorder; however, youth with conduct disorder in whom antisocial personality disorder does not develop typically have other long-term problems. Thus, persistent psychopathology is the rule, though its nature can vary. Considerable stability is seen in callous–unemotional traits, with stability coefficients of 0.5 to 0.7 among children followed over a period of 4 to 9 years. The outcome may be particularly poor if the behavioral problems begin before 10 years of age. Some research suggests that such an early onset predicts stronger biologic correlates and greater persistence into adulthood than the later-onset variant…..

Empathy influences behavior at many levels. Persons who have high levels of empathy for a victim, relative to those with low levels of empathy, may show lower levels of aggressive response and higher levels of altruism toward the victim. Developmentally, empathy is critical for socialization. Caregivers typically respond to transgressions that harm others by focusing on the victim’s distress. Children learn to refrain from harming others in order to prevent these associated aversive feelings.
Deficient empathy shows a particularly selective association with conduct disorder accompanied by callous–unemotional traits. This deficiency is manifested in patients’ reports of minimal emotional responses and an impaired ability to recognize distress in peers or respond physiologically to it. In youth with conduct disorder, the presence of callous–unemotional traits predicts a poor response to typical socialization practices….
Deficient Decision Making
Persons who fail to learn how to make choices that lead to rewards rather than punishments are at high risk for impulsivity, frustration, and reactive aggression. Patients with conduct disorder exhibit such difficulties when performing tasks that require flexible responses to changing task contingencies.

GLOSSARY:
.....Callous–unemotional traits:
This term refers to patterns of callousness, uncaring behavior, reduced guilt, and reduced empathy. When such traits accompany mental disorders, they typically occur in children with conduct disorder. Nevertheless, fewer than half of all patients with conduct disorder manifest callous–unemotional traits, though this relatively small group of children has a particularly high risk of ASPD and other adverse outcomes…..

I haven’t been following the case for a couple of months and was wondering what’s happening next.  I always feel like there is a piece of this story that none of us knows.  I looked for news and read this story and listened to the tape of Rudy’s telephone call for the first time.  It’s translated into English text.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/crime/op-ed-negligent-computer-analysis-revealed-in-amanda-knox-case/article/416847

It struck me that either he made up and memorized a hugely detailed story for his friend, which seems difficult to do but possible, or else he is telling the truth.  It isn’t like he says a small summary of what happened.

I can believe that it would be possible that he ran off in fear and shock and that is why he went to the nightclub, to establish an alibi, and why he ran off to Germany.  It seems fairly credible.  I suppose his story of meeting Meredith at the “Spanish kids” house must have been verified??  I only heard of him being with her at the Le Chic, not the Shamrock and this other party, if true.

The male person he describes in his story to his friend with the knife could have been Sollecito.  He didn’t know him yet.  Maybe he didn’t see Amanda because she was in the kitchen already?  He doesn’t say how the two of them left the house however.  Just that he himself tried to save Meredith from the wound. 

Could Sollecito have been the main one to kill Meredith, to avenge his girlfriend being insulted for being accused of stealing the money, while Amanda was in the kitchen as she described in her own story, and Rudy in the bathroom??  I mean he was a kick boxer and much bigger than Meredith.  It remains such a strange story.
 
How about that teacher in Abu Dhabi who was killed this week by the lady in the burqa with a large kitchen knife?  That was terrible.  Apparently she just brought in the knife looking for someone to kill, an American or ex-pat.  And nobody even came into a mall bathroom during the assault which must have only taken a short time then.

This latest from Andrea Vogt Twitter:

” Honoured to be among the six female foreign correspondents in #Italy featured in ‘F’ on newsstands this week! N Pg 69 -72!”

Congratulations Andrea!

Just to enlarge upon what I wrote concerning some people in my experience hiding their true self through alcohol or drugs. It works this way.
Not all people who get drunk or take drugs in order to hide their true feeling are always criminals or sociopaths of course. That line of country belongs to individuals who fear that their true self will be taken advantage of so they invent a persona which is exceptable to their immediate family, hence the saying that “A man has three faces.
(1)“One to show to all the world.”
(2)“One to show to his/her special friends.” and
(3)“The real one which he/she keeps well hidden.” 
This works well until drugs (In Knox case) destroys the fear of people finding out who she really is since at this point she does not care. That is why I am convinced she was high from when she first landed in Italy after throwing the good job she had in Germany.

In my experience though escapism belongs to soldiers who can’t take the horror of combat, such is unsuspected PTSD which arise years later. For example such a sight as seeing 32 babies nailed to a wall as a joke as in 32 bottles of beer will have different effects upon people. Such is the trauma of rape as well. Some soldiers in my experience have used all manner of escape mechanisms rather than face the horror of the sight (and more important the smell) of death which will last long after the visual image has faded.

What I wrote about is Amanda Knox and others who commit murder and then distance themselves from the event itself by taking drugs is just another form of escapism. In Knox situation she was high when she killed Meredith so therefore she is able to psychologically distance herself from the murder through denial when she started to sober up.

As to the notion that Knox was in the kitchen while Sollecito killed Meredith does not wash since the continuous string of evasiveness from Knox discounts such a scenario. People make the mistake of judging others through the lens of sanity. or through the lens of judging others by their own standard of behavior. Such is the view of the Knox supporters who find it inconceivable that such an event could ever take place. In other words they judge Knox from their own
experiences not hers.

Hi believing

Welcome back. You might be better served by updating here than via that foolish article by Fischer who is by now years out of date. Sallyoo went far deeper recently in 2 posts on the computer interactions and showed that what Fischer claims proved nothing. Unquestionably Meredith’s death occurred later and his own “incompetent” lawyers (“Incompetent” is a term the incompetent Fischer throws around a lot) did not prove otherwise.

Just below here was a link to a huge post on a new page which really is essential reading. It lists much of the evidence that the trial court heard which Fischer never mentions and is utterly unable to account for. We also posted a huge spreadsheet itemizing all the DNA.

We have several posts coming up on Guede. That only Knox had the motive for the attack and the cleanup and delivered the final blow was accepted by Judges Micheli and Nencini. Judge Massei accepted that Knox delivered the final blow but came up with a fatuous scenario for how the attack started.

Extensive evidence on Meredith and in the room accepted by Judge Massei, much of it in closed session, showed that there were three parties to the attack on her. It is impossible to explain all the them all with less.

The knife attack on the teacher was in Abu Dhabi and not Dubai so we amended the mention. The efficient Abu Dhabi police tracked the attacker very quickly via CCTV in various locations.

This GLOSSARY from the NEMJ may help some readers:

Antisocial personality disorder (ASPD):

Like other personality disorders, ASPD refers to a long-standing pattern of behavior, typically manifesting in adults, which broadly interferes with functioning. ASPD differs from other personality disorders on the basis of its associated high levels of persistent aggression and rule-violating behavior. Nearly all persons with ASPD will have had conduct disorder in childhood, and many of them will also have exhibited callous–unemotional traits. A minority of children with conduct disordefr go on to have ASPD as adults, and those who do are more likely to have had callous–unemotional features than those who do not.

Anxiety disorder:

The term refers to a family of mental disorders that involve excessive fear and anxiety. Although fear and anxiety are features of normal development, in anxiety disorders excessive fear and anxiety usually impair functioning through the avoidance of feared objects or scenarios. Anxiety disorders are extremely common during childhood. Typically, in clinical settings, approximately half of all children with an anxiety disorder have a behavioral disorder, such as conduct disorder, oppositional–defiant disorder, or attention deficit–hyperactivity disorder, and approximately half of all children seen for one of these behavioral disorders have an anxiety disorder.
The term refers to a family of mental disorders that involve excessive fear and anxiety. Although fear and anxiety are features of normal development, in anxiety disorders excessive fear and anxiety usually impair functioning through the avoidance of feared objects or scenarios. Anxiety disorders are extremely common during childhood. Typically, in clinical settings, approximately half of all children with an anxiety disorder have a behavioral disorder, such as conduct disorder, oppositional–defiant disorder, or attention deficit–hyperactivity disorder, and approximately half of all children seen for one of these behavioral disorders have an anxiety disorder.

Attention deficit–hyperactivity disorder (ADHD):

ADHD is one of the most common reasons why families seek mental health services for their children. This mental disorder is characterized by high levels of inattention, hyperactivity, and excessive impulsivity. The condition typically arises by school age and predicts a high risk of other behavioral problems, such as oppositional–defiant disorder and conduct disorder. In clinical settings, about half of children with ADHD have an anxiety disorder, and an even greater proportion have one of two behavioral disorders: conduct disorder and oppositional–defiant disorder. Conversely, most children for whom treatment for these behavioral disorders is sought

Callous–unemotional traits:

This term refers to patterns of callousness, uncaring behavior, reduced guilt, and reduced empathy. When such traits accompany mental disorders, they typically occur in children with conduct disorder. Nevertheless, fewer than half of all patients with conduct disorder manifest callous–unemotional traits, though this relatively small group of children has a particularly high risk of ASPD

Conduct disorder:

Conduct disorder is a mental disorder arising in childhood that is less common than anxiety disorders or ADHD. The syndrome involves high levels of aggression and rule-violating behavior. In clinical settings, conduct disorder usually occurs in children with a history of ADHD and oppositional–defiant disorder. Particularly when it is accompanied by callous–unemotional traits, conduct disorder predicts a high risk of chronic behavioral problems, which can be expressed as ASPD in adulthood; however, fewer than half of patients with conduct disorder will go on to have ASPD.

Oppositional–defiant disorder (ODD):

This mental disorder arises in childhood and is characterized by persistent angry, irritable, and argumentative behaviors. Although such behaviors are common in children, in ODD the behaviors occur at particularly high levels in ways that interfere with functioning. In clinical settings, ODD usually occurs in children with a history of ADHD, and over time a substantial minority of such children will have conduct disorder.

@Ergon

“Lord Lucan disappeared into obscurity.” I agree, he did a runner - probably overseas and almost certainly with the help of his wealthy pals.

Lady Lucan seems to think he committed suicide shortly after the murder. That could just be wishful thinking on her part. Others say it is possible because aristocrats have been known to do “the decent thing” in such a fix!

As you say, AK might also be contemplating fleeing but I doubt it somehow - she won’t have the same mega-wealthy friends surely? As for the other way out, she must be even less likely to do that than Lucan.

Odysseus, I remember earlier reports Lord Lucan may have gone to what was then known as Rhodesia (till 1979). After that, very likely he’d have gone to SA. Sir James Goldsmith had extensive interests both countries.

Both he and Amanda Knox do not appear to be the type to kill themselves, since, in their eyes, they did nothing wrong. The amount of self justification is quite clear in both cases. Their psychology seems very alike, right down to the ‘thrill seeking’.

Raffaele Sollecito too, though he’s the Myra Hindley to Knox’s Ian Brady IMO. But he’s the one most likely to be a runner; he did go to London in 2013 and Austria 2014 just before the court cases went against him.

Thank you for this article, Odysseus . It is really impressive, insightful, and clearly written, and succinctly draws the parallels and similarities with Meredith’s case.

Sorry I’ve been tied up recently, with not much time.

With regard to what was called his ‘Attachment’ problem -during the War, as a child - this speaks also of Borderline Personality Disorder, where these people cannot tolerate separation, being left, or anything that Is read as rejection of their incomplete or faint Self.
They also have a strongly established link with suicide - actual suicide, as well as attempts.
As you will know, actual suicides often give less warning, or ‘cry for help’.
My intuition, - for what it’s worth - inclines to the suicide.

One difference with Amanda/Meredith is that Lucan didn’t see the deed through with his wife. He appears not only to have given up, but she sat between his legs(?) and then he attempted some clean up of her. He may of course of being planning further destruction, but it does strike me as being slightly undetermined. She was the mother of his children. I wonder whether his hate of her vacillated. If Borderline, it would be her hatred of him (the rejection) that would completely de-stabilize him.
I wonder whether he decided at that point he would have to end his own life as a way out of the impossible mess (a much more long-standing mess) ?

The abandonment of Meredith before she had died, and utter lack of mercy, is one of the most terrible things that could have been done.

@SeekingUnderstanding

You may be right regarding the possible suicide - we will probably never be sure either way.

I think he may well have been planning further destruction: apparently after attacking his wife,  when they lay on the stairs, he asked if she would take an overdose of sleeping pills and she agreed as long as she could be helped upstairs (where the pills were) to rest on the bed. That seems a very odd exchange.  Did he mean a fatal overdose and did she interpret it that way? Luckily once upstairs she was able to make her escape while he was in the bathroom.

Where next:

Or to next entry Paul Ciolino Hit With A $40 Million Suit For Real Railroad Job From Hell

Or to previous entry In A New Italy Case Involving A Foreign Student The UK Media Is Not Reporting The Full Facts