Facts Of Melania Rea’s Stabbing Death In Italy Last April Are Also Proving Hard To Get Straight #2

Comments

As it relates to the case of Melania I’d like to repost my latest comment here from the thread directly below where Ergon and JenE were touching on the issue of spreading satanism.

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Hi Ergon and JenE. There seems to be a fight going on in Italy now between those who suspect satanic cults are on the spread and those who want this kind of suspicion suppressed. The Mignini case might have been one manifestation.

I have been coming across repeated assertions of this (which is new territory for me) in reading up on and discussing with a source in Italy the case of Melania Rea which is the subject of [this post].

In June a Rome prosecutor called Paolo Ferraro who was apparently zeroing in on satanic activity in the military (including at the Clementi barracks in Ascoli where Melania’s husband was based) was put on forced medical leave for four months, despite the fact that people around him claimed he was quite sane.

Someone who looked extremely like Melania Rea was seen in the prosecutor’s office in Rome shortly before Melania was killed on 18 April.

Early this month Paolo Ferraro was interviewed by the Melania case prosecutors in Teramo for three hours, when he explained what he suspected was going on at the Clementi barracks which Melania might have found out about.

(The other main theory of motive is that Melania’s husband Salvatore had got himself entangled with a possessive female soldier (main candidate for this is Ludovica Perrone) and Melania was trying to shut the affair down. She was known to be distraught just before she died.)

There is nothing on Paolo Ferraro in the English-language media. Would anyone with some Italian like to pursue this? If you google the names Paolo Ferraro and Melania Rea you will get back over three MILLION results.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&ndsp=21&q=Paolo%20Ferraro%20melania%20rea&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=iw

We sure could use one or two posts on this. Perhaps Ergon and some of our Italian friends who read? We have willing translators elsewhere.

Well I’m interested as more information emerges, from a glance it looks like the husband is totally involved if not the perp.  The affair and his weak story are just such big red flags. 

Now the info about Ferraro sounds typical of what happens when someone tries to expose a network.  They individual often finds out the network is comprised of all kinds of people who can influence things from many different angles.  Again, looking forward to more info.

“There were around 30 stabs to Melania’s neck and upper chest, some inflicted after she was dead.”

Doesn’t sound so much satanic as PERSONAL. 

Stabbing someone AFTER death is very telling, and obviously the killer’s psychology was that of extreme malicious revenge of the ultimate kind. Rage is clearly indicated.  If this was a hit by a satanic network, there would be symbology indicative of that fact and so far I’m not seeing it, the crime appears to be more of a personal nature, though I don’t know much about this case yet.  Again, the husband and his mistress are most likely involved.

Hi JenE. Thanks. Paolo Ferraro seems to be suspecting that Melania was kiilled because she came to know too much.

In that kind of situation the murder could well be staged to make people think this is the work of this or that kind of murderer. She could easily have been buried and her case quickly forgotten, but here her body was laid out almost along the lines of a demonstration, and then someone called it in.

http://www.luogocomune.net/site/modules/news/article.php?storyid=3773&com_mode=thread&com_order=1&com_id=189663&com_rootid=189655

That Italian post has this to say about the very suspect nature of Paolo Ferraro being forcibly put on medical leave last June:

“Against that decision, with immediate effect, the lawyers of Dr. Ferraro, Mauro Cecchetti and George Charter, have announced an appeal to the Lazio Regional Administrative Court, which will be presented in the first days of next week.

“The procedure followed by the interim CSM [panel] according to the prosecutor’s lawyers is not only full of violations of the defense’s guarantees, but also atypical because it is not supported by any rule, and arbitrary, since it is not based on any medical report…”

“The CSM… felt strangely irrelevant the numerous medical reports both private and public in 2011 confirming the suitability of the specific intellectual quality of Mr Ferraro - and it ignored a complaint filed in analytical and argumentative acts, which highlights very serious injuries to him suffered from 2009 onwards.”

I will say that this Ferraro was clearly onto something.  As you quoted, “it is not based on any meical report”.  Now that is telling and totally the trademark of a network of people who have influence enough to silence someone like him.  He’s lucky they didn’t go further.  I mean this is a prosecutor, it’s not easy to just place someone like that on medical leave.  If he stumbled upon the kind of satanic activity I think he did, he likely crossed paths with high level Masons who have military in their network.  I would like to hear more about his case and what he uncovered!

Now whether what he discovered relates to Melania is not totally clear yet, and I would hate to be law enforcement on this one because they are going to have to investigate this “satanic” angle if they have any integrity at all. 

I can’t shake my first intuitive gut feeling though.  I think Salvatore is totally involved (and appears to have had female accomplice).

When you first posted this story and I was simply looking at the pics before reading the text, I saw the pics with Salvatore in them.  I thought he was one of the police detectives working on the case.  And he caught my eye, he’s got a strong presence in the pictures, he looks like a cop or military.  And I had this bad feeling about him, like he was a creep!  I thought “maybe he’s a bad cop” and got a chill, seriously.  When I found out that man in the pics is her husband it made sense.  I don’t claim to be psychic or any of that, and obviously this is just speculation, but I really got a bad vibe just from this man’s picture and it was INTENSE, without any pre judgement attached.  If I were police I would be focusing on him big time.

But that’s not enough to convict and I think this man will get away with it unless his accomplice is caught.  I think he led her to the park that day and handed her over to her murderer(s).  They took her, killed her, and then placed her body, and all along Salvatore looks innocent enough to convince even her family to support him.  Seems like this was well planned out (and likely inspired by Knoxy’s case).  How else would the perp know where she would be that day?  NO WAY is this “random”, and I can see why the serial killer angle had to be looked at, but it’s highly unlikely.

As you say this could be staged to look like a crime of passion, but why the apparent swastika?  I clicked on the bloody picture of her, it’s really a mess, and the look on her face is awful.  The fact someone called it in is odd, a crime of passion wouldn’t be so likely to make sure the body if found quickly, while evidence is relatively fresh. And what’s the deal with the syringe stuck in her chest?  Why would a stabber do that?  Did they drug her first to interrogate? 

The more I reread the details the more I think the prosecutor is likely right.  I just wonder, is Salvatore involved with the “satanic” activity and will the link be found? This guy is military and clearly not stupid, and yet even after months of keeping his story tight his story is slipping.

Frontal stabbing like that, in such an excessive manner…whoever did this is pretty evil.  I still think she knew the perp(s) and there was a personal vendetta attached. Being left there partially undressed seems like a humiliation tactic.

Any witnesses see Salvatore that day in the park, and was he acting unusual?  Has he implicated or even mentioned his affairs?  Who are these women?  Lots of details that seem real fishy.  Does her family still believe he’s innocent?

Hi Peter and JenE, this opens up questions on so many fronts, I will try to summarize briefly.

From a brief reading of the Melania Rea case it seems that if this is a simple murder based on jealousy then sooner or later someone will be found and charged with the crime. People talk, break down, turn on each other. Even the cleverest of criminals trip up soon enough.

It would be a lot harder to prove satanic ritual at work here. The whole process of ritual is to create a mind control matrix so powerful people can be conditioned to do things they never would do otherwise, or, remove inhibitions that previously acted as a check on the deepest urges of their psyche. Such people rarely confess.

We have no proof of anything deeper in this case, only speculation. Yet, since this murder is clearly staged as a ritual killing every possibility should be checked. Who were her confidants? Do we know why she was in the military prosecutors office? There are a multitude of crimes that may have needed to be covered up. Drug dealing, sex orgies with the female soldiers and officers/nco’s?

The subject of Satanism is a far deeper one, and yes, I am writing another, more lengthy piece which I’ll post soon. There is indeed such a belief system, and some of its adherents do in fact take part in ritual murder/child sacrifice. No amount of pseudo-‘scientic’ rationalisation can cover up the increasing number of such incidents.

We can argue that disturbed minds can and do commit crimes, but if they were influenced by ritualized forms of mind control or a ‘satan’ based theology then yes, that should be examined, and let the chips fall wherever.

Yes, such occult groups have existed since Babylonian times, and continue to operate within the various interlocking criminal/masonic/military intelligence networks. They can and do operate on a global scale, but only in America and the UK is there an active campaign of denialism on this subject.

When one looks at Italian reactions to this debate one needs to separate their feelings about Freemasonry from the question of whether there is a spate of ritual killing. The Roman Catholic Church under Pope Paul II reiterated its ban on any Catholic joining the Masons, and this goes back to the time when Garibaldi, the Italian liberator, attacked the Church’s power and was roundly criticized for being a revolutionary mason. There is no love lost between the groups, and those feelings run deep.

But modern satanism is, I find, an extension of mind control experiments that were conducted by various secret services from the early 20th century on.

The CIA infiltrated and set up various New Age groups, cults, and psycho-therapy organizations. L Ron Hubbard’s Church of Scientology had connections with the Office of Naval Intelligence, and Jim Jones, with the CIA. LSD experimentation was conducted on unsuspecting patients in mental health clinics.

And yes, it has been alleged that mind control experiments are being conducted through various satanic fronts, and there is a heavy emphasis on blood, ritual sacrifice, and psychological shock on the general population through sensational killings like this one.

Ergon, this is an excellent summary and shows you have really done your research about this subject.  I agree, I see a lot of the modern satanism related to the mind control experiments of early last century.  IN the US it seems to have come together when WW2 was won and the Nazi scientists were brought over via project paperclip and integrated with NASA and the CIA.  As I said, these networks often collide with MK Ultra stuff. 

To me what the “Satanic” really means is separation, a fractured mind and psyche.  Most of the ritual abuse survivors I have talked to have illustrated that HORROR and satanic imagry and symbolism traumatize the mind and body and cause everything from psychopathology to Disassociative Identity Disorder (more common than not with the satanic types, also a lot of hollywood people and Disney kids like Britney Spears have been reported in mainstream media as having other personalities - Britney has a “british girl” who lives inside of her!). 

The connection to Amanda with that is I wouldn’t be surprised if she has DID or is at least VERY compartmentalized in her psyche.  Amanda has always struck me as a product of abuse, and I really don’t see “abuser” in Kurt Knox.  However, I see it clearly in Edna, she is pushy and creepy and I bet that led to their divorce. 

Speculation, but my hunch is Amanda was raised on the surface in a “normal” way but there are deep issues and secrets in that family. Is it just me or has Edna acted like she feels guilty over her daughter?

We live in a society that is fractured.  Look at the entertainment industry and people like GAGA who use satanic symbolism extensively.  JayZ and Beyonce as well, notice how much attention and over press those creeps get?  Do you EVER not see them on a magazine or tabloid or TV or internet in a week?  I don’t.  They are so overly promoted that it’s become painfully obvious that Hollywood and the music industry are uttely dominated by teh Masonic money machine.

Satanists are materialists to the extreme, and all about money.  The connection between the CIA and all the above that I discussed is also a fact.  You are right about them setting up their new age and cult groups, I have encountered a few.  They have also set up an EXTENSIVE gang stalking system in the USA.  Pretty much all the gangstalking victims I have connected have told me horror stories and much of it is corporate networks who go after whistleblowers, but a LOT of it is the CIA and mind control networks who continue to experiment on the public without consent.  Almost all the GS victims also claim Masons are involved in their stalking, usually cops and judges and other members of the community are involved in the Masonic networks (and in some towns and cities you can’t get high up unless you are one!).

So that prosecutor in Rome getting put on illegal medical leave is TYPICAL.  They use the system against their targets, plainly they break the law out in the open.  Chicago and Florida are the worst places in the US for this.  BLATANT beyond belief in some cases. They coincide and often are connected with the military networks and the CIA.

So yeah, read the “Mind War” paper by Aquino (a high level NSA man and open satanist!) or watch it presented on youtube if you want to understand the mind set and objective of the satanic military agenda.  They are highly paid, high tech, and major psychopaths and abusers. 
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/upshot/pentagon-declined-investigate-hundreds-purchases-child-pornography.html

JenE,

I am quite sure that there are deep issues and secrets in the Knox family.

I cannot say for sure who is the real abuser, but she is the perfect example of an abused child. She reminds me of the Cathy in the East of Eden.  Something is missing.

The regular appearances does not mean anything.  Try to look beyond that and the thing falls apart.

I am just curious: what happens If Hellman fails to deliver his report by the due date?  I know it is required by law, but the exception will also be mentioned, right?  Does it mean, if he fails to deliver, that the judgement becomes invalid?  It has to be part of the whole process, and the process will be incomplete without the report coming in time.  If he falls sick, for example?

@ chami: good question, and what I wondered when I read that Judge Micheli hadn’t submitted a motivation report yet in one of the Narducci related cases, more than a year afterwards. I hope there are procedures in place for the case to be appealed to Cassazione in that eventuality.

@JenE. Lt. Col. (ret’d) Michael Aquino of the Psychological Warfare Division of the US Army is one example of where I believe that ‘satanism’ can be a front for using trauma as a form of mind control.

It also is very interesting to see occult symbolism in many events like 9/11, the London Tube Bombings (7/7/7)and Operation ‘Shock and Awe’ (Shekinah)

One can really get into this, but what really gets my attention is the underlying psychology. To me, the real satanists aren’t people playacting something they read about, but the torturers of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay, Bush and Blair, and the Wall Street banks 😊

@Ergon & chami, I would think there would be such public outrage if Hellman doesn’t deliver in time that it would be a big risk for him to do that.  This is just such a high profile case and so many of us think Hellman made a huge mistake, the scrutiny is heavy. 

And Aquino seems like a clown front man, appearing on even Oprah and Geraldo, denying this issues even exists and defending the “church of set”.  I have long thought of him as a cover front, but I do think these people are high level occultists. 

And never mind the Bush family, who have already been so heavily implicated in satanism and abuse networks (by more than just Cathy O’Brien, whom I think is at least semi credible). 

I agree, the truly satanic are the haters of humanity and nature.  The people who adulterate the human genome with eugenics and rape the resources of 3rd world countries.  The IMF and the Banksters obviously fit the bill, and big pharma doesn’t seem so far behind.  Corporate corruption is out of control.  I think in times past these types of evil people had to work much harder, now a days they are so well funded and high tech it’s really pretty disturbing. 

One last thought on Amanda….sometimes when I read the words and hear the yapping of her supporters I am struck by what creeps they are and how low they will stoop (even calling Meredith a slut for heaven’s sake! how does that help Amanda, hmmmm?).  I think a lot of them are actually the abuser types.  They are drawn to her because she’s basically an abused child who turned abuser, and to me it seems the ultimate goal of abusers to pass on the “virus” of their negative consciousness onto their victims.

chami, Not to dismiss the seriousness of the problem, but I think our society has a hysteria about child abuse. My grandmother was said to have been abused. My dad was said to have been abused by a priest. I was said to have both been abused by various adults and, as a teenager, to have myself abused my younger sister and some random girl to whom I had never spoken.

Then you have celebrity psychologists saying essentially that every girl with relationship problems or drug abuse was a victim.

I am quite sure that there are deep issues and secrets in the Knox family, as there are in any family, especially a family where there has been a divorce, but I don’t think any of us knows her well enough to say she seems like an abused child. The only person whose claim of abuse of which I was totally convinced was an ex-girlfriend who I dated for seven years.

Regarding the Hellmann report, there’s a pool over at PMF as to how many pages it will be. Feel free to venture a guess here or at PMF. Winner gets one cent to buy a used copy of Knox’s book on Amazon.

Clander - 111
brmull - 67
stilicho - 210
Catnip - 382

Okay, I guess the Hellman-Report will have 150 pages. 😊

I think Hellmann will have to stammer a lot and will write in triple space so as to accommodate all manual comments by the readers!

I love reports written in triple space!

I guess it will 300 (including the front and back covers)

How many pieces of toilet peper are in a roll. Hellmans report will be a toilet roll long.
Speaking of toilet rolls. Can anyone give me info or feedback regarding the toilet roll in photo 9 of Merediths and Amandas bathroom. http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/PhotoGallery3.html

Someone cleaned themselves in the ‘english’ bathroom and this unopened roll is begging to be used.

brmull,

I am afraid that I was unable to convey what I was thinking…

Beating a student was common in our times and we did not think that as an abuse.  I did not leave any permanent mark on our lives.

Beating one’s own wife was considered a right and no one would interfere.  I have seen what is the result- the transformation.

Beating children was considered essential.  Few turned out to be deformed.

I was not talking about physical violence.  Although regular physical violent takes its toll.

Divorce of the parents makes a long time mark on all kids- but the effect is not the same on all.

Sexual violence is traumatic when it is done by a family member- it is not sex but the fear that matters.

Perhaps nobody knows her well enough to say that she is an abused child.  Her parents will be the last person.  They only have a strange feeling that they themselves do not understand well.

The assumption I make is that all of us start out normally in almost similar way.  We diverge sometime near the adolescent period.  The formative years are the most critical in psychological development.

The girl-friend you mentioned has been permanently deformed and will need extensive help. All I meant is that Amanda Knox appears something similar to her, only more.  We need not know every detail but the symptoms tell all (well, almost all).

Fortunately most of us get up and proceed and leave the past behind.

Perhaps I am a bit clearer now.  Because I try to be concise, I skip much, perhaps too much.

Ok, I really like your guestimate Starsdad, a toilet paper roll indeed (and not a clean one!). 

I’m going to venture 218 pages.  I refuse to believe it will be nearly as long as the massei report.

Yes, obviously AManda used both bathrooms, for the first time I’m realizing the bloody barefoot print is in HER bathroom, perhaps that’s where they did much of the clean up (you know, so they could avoid Rudy’s poopie in the other bathroom).  My understanding is that she showered in the bathroom with the unflushed toilet, I’m just now really getting solid on all the details.

I think that roll of toilet paper should have been bagged and tagged so later on Hellman could write up his report on it. 

@chami, thanks for all the clarification.  There is abuse and there is ABUSE.  I agree with brmull we don’t KNOW for sure if she was actually abused, but abuse comes in forms so subtle and unconscious that it may not have been overt.  In some ways I think the kind of abuse that leaves no trace or scars other than psychological is the worst kind.

JenE, I think that was a very insightful comment you made about AK probably being abused and her groupies being motivated by that “culture of abuse.”

As for how many pages the Hellman report is, without really thinking it through (how many issues he has to address, the DNA C/V report, etc.), in an off-hand way, I’d say 96 pages. I think it’s going to go shorter rather than longer.

Thanks Earthling.  The fact that her groupies continue to verbally abuse Meredith and the Kerchers is a huge reason why I have dedicated time to understanding this case and combatting their idiocy with facts. 

Who started the lie the Kerchers were suing Amanda anyway?  It’s stuff like that which discredits the FOA “movement” entirely.

I saw some comment on a youtube video where this girl was like “stop looking at Pro Meredith or pro Amanda sites”. 

My question is…why on earth would anyone NOT be “pro Meredith”?????  SHE NEVER DID ANYTHING TO HARM ANYONE. Literally everyone from her life had nothing but praise for her. 

The FOAs and the PR campaign have been executed by fools.  They should have been utterly pro Meredith and avoided ever calling her names or making her out to be the slut here (excuse me? how many guys did Amanda DO in 2 months even according to her own writing?). 

HEY KNOX FAMILY, tell your PR and FOA fools they are ruining your reputataion.  Especially IF YOU ARE STILL PAYING THEM!!!!!!!!!!

Forgive me if some of these things have been covered. I am relatively new to this case. There may be something contained in the posting that will help someone. Please feel free to correct me.

It seems inconceivable that Knox and Sollecito could return to the cottage and not view the ‘strange things’ Knox had reported to Sollecito, together. No one can argue that two people can have missed the ‘mess’ in the toilet basin. See crime scene photos http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/PhotoGallery3.html  (see Filomenas and Lauras bathroom, photo 8) ( I use this gallery because to use the PMF gallery, you have to be a member. I am a member but I refer to this gallery for the benefit of everyone who uses this site)

In her email, Knox describes returning to the cottage…. ‘i then went
into the bathroom where i had dried my hair and looked really quickley
into the toilet. in my panic i thought i hadnt seen anything there,
which to me meant whoever was in my house had been there when i had
been there. as it turns out the police told me later that the toilet
was full and that the shit had just fallen to the bottom of the
toilet, so i didnt see it.’....(I suggest she takes English grammar lessons)

Det.Sup. Napoleoni (Massei p.105 & John Follain p.77) testified that Sollecito stated to her ‘My girlfriend has just remembered that when she went into the big bathroom on her own this morning there was excrement. When we returned to the cottage it wasn’t there anymore. The toilet had been flushed in our absense’. Napoleoni went to the bathroom and was puzzled to find the ‘mess’ was still outstandingly visible. (see photo), Napoleoni was of the opinion that Knox and Sollecito wanted to make sure that she noticed it.

Why would one person view the ‘disappearance’ of the ‘mess’ and the other, (natural reaction) not visit the bathroom to confirm the ‘disappearance?’

They may have been aware that the mess had ‘slipped’ but the story of the ‘disappearing mess’ is just a load of shit. It’s purpose, as Napoleoni states, is to draw attention to it, (In case it is flushed away) because it points directly towards to an intruder. This had to have happened after they had clarification from other flatmates and friends that it was not their mess.( I will discuss that later)

{I am of the opinion,  that K/S had a strategy to have the police beleive that a burglary has taken place; where the burglar had injured himself entering the property and treated himself in the bathroom and left leaving the front door open; and then have the police ‘stumble’ on the murder. The fact that there was a locked door, which Knox had said in her email had caused her to panic and was such a concern that they tried to kick in, is conveniently not a problem (‘Meredith always locks her door’)}

Despite her email declarations that she thought, at that moment, someone had either returned to a locked property and flushed the toilet while she was at Sollecitos flat or someone had been present before she had left the cottage (At this point it would seem CRITICAL to phone the police!) the ‘mess’ is not an issue and not shown to the postal police when they arrive. (Massei p.85) (Maybe they intended to flush the toilet and were surprised by the arrival of the postal police).

There were at least 6 people plus the ‘burglar’ in the kitchen area of the cottage that weekend. Anyone of them could have left the ‘mess’. K/S cannot be entirely sure that the ‘mess’ was made by Guede. The ‘mess’ becomes really significant when Knox discovers it and does not flush it away (natural reaction). They would have needed clarification before flushing it. It is possible they may have thought that it was Merediths. Had Meredith visited that area before she went to her friends? In any event, we can only assume that the ‘mess’ was not flushed because it was evidence that pointed away from them and towards another person.

How did she discover the mess? She had no reason to go into the bathroom. The hairdryers are not in the ‘hidden’ bathroom, they are in the laundry room (photo 8). There is no mirror in the ‘hidden’ bathroom (see all photos). There appears to be no electric socket in the ‘hidden’ bathroom to run a hair dryer from. There is a mirror and sockets in the laundry room (photo 1). How did Knox venture far enough to view the soiled toilet basin.(photos 8’9 & 10). Knox is 5ft 4”. The cameraman must be, at the very LEAST, the same height and the ‘mess’ is not visible in the photos. Why would she go into the bathroom.?.... To get more toilet roll for the clean up?... Amanda had used up all the toilet paper in the ‘english’ bathroom?

The toilet roll, an alarmed Guede used is returned and perfectly positioned on a cupboard, in front of the toilet basin (photo 10).

In the ‘english’ bathroom you will see that there are 2 unused toilet rolls (photo 2), one on the shelf in the middle of the photo and one on top of a small chest of drawers, bottom left of photo. There is a close up of the one on the shelf (photo 9). It is indisputable that someone cleaned themselves in that bathroom and to anyone cleaning themselves. The unopened toilet roll on the shelf is begging to be used!
 
It may be that these unused toilet rolls are what Knox bought to replace the ones used during the clean up, at Quintavalles store on the morning of November 2.

Whoever cleaned themselves in the bathroom must have used toilet rolls to either clean themselves or dry themselves and disposed of them using the flush system. There is only evidence that the toilet rolls in the bathroom were NOT used.
There is also (wet?) DNA evidence that Amanda went into Filomenas room before the ‘break in’. There is a toilet roll on the bedside table which could have been used when the ‘english bathroom supply had run out.
 
Also, I quote Massei referring to Knoxs statement (p,70)....‘Then she took a shower and, getting out, not having ‚remembered the towel‛ she decided to use the bath mat to go into her own room. At that moment, she noticed the blood stain on the mat. She thought, however, that ‚maybe there was some menstrual problem that wasn’t cleaned‛. She used the mat to go to her own room, and then she put the mat back in its place’...This is unequivocal evidence in Knoxs own words that there were signs of a clean-up as she would have had to shuffle the mat to her room. This produces the effect of cleaning. My thinking is that she actually used the mat for cleaning, then washed and wrung it in the shower and then dried it with the hairdryers.

In the ‘english’ bathroom you will see that there are 2 unused toilet rolls (photo 2), one on the shelf in the middle of the photo and one on top of a small chest of drawers, bottom left of photo…......should read ‘bottom right of photo’

starsdad,

That is very interesting observation about the toilet paper. I hadn’t noticed that both rolls appear to be untouched. I don’t have a better shot of the roll next to the Knox’s toilet than this still from the crime scene video, but I agree it appears unused:

http://perugiamurderfile.org/gallery/image_page.php?album_id=21&image_id=1181

I do have some doubts about using toilet paper to clean up blood. It tends to fall apart easily. I wonder if each woman was expected to keep her own roll of toilet paper (hence Meredith’s on her bedside table) and the ones in the bathroom itself were just for guests and got little use. But I need to think about this some more.

We’re in agreement that Knox did not see the poop in the toilet while blow-drying her hair. (I would say she’s 5’4” at most—if you see her walking next to that Lexus SUV in the Daily Mail which is 5’7” it’s clear she’s at least 3”-4” shorter.) She saw the poop either when she went deep into the bathroom to get her shower stuff—she usually showered in the large bathroom—or for some other purpose.

Her story of using the bathmat to shimmy into her room was presumably meant to explain her luminol footprints in the hall. (The shimmying excuse didn’t emerge until after Knox knew the investigators hadn’t found traces a cleanup in the bathroom.) Honestly I don’t know how Hellmann could read these lame excuses and still acquit her!

I agree the bathrug may have been washed, although I’m not 100% convinced. My reason for thinking this is that the darkest bloodstains are on the plush part of the bathrug—blood is notoriously difficult to wash out of those thick fibers.

http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/PhotoGallery5.html  (photo 2 of hallway cupboard).
Can anyone confirm or deny these are toilet rolls? If they are, it suggests that personal possession of toilet rolls for using the toilet did not exist. Also, it lessens my speculation that of toilet rolls being bought at Quintavalles but does not rule it out. The Italian pair may have just stocked up or cleaned up for their weekend away and would notice discrepancies. The discrepancies to replace Merediths, Amandas (which does not seem to have happened) and the 2 in the bathroom may be too many.
That other photos (see previous post) seems to confirm that either no toilet paper was used in the clean-up (very doubtful) or that those rolls were replacements.
With respect to the ladies, women cannot see a toilet without having a pee! If Knox had a shower and spent time in the bathroom, I would find it unusual for her not to have had a pee. It is just too coincidental that both rolls appear unopened. The position of the roll on the shelf is in such a position that it suggests that the roll was placed on the shelf AFTER the use of shampoos, moisturisers which are positioned behind the roll.
Women use toilet rolls for all sorts of things wiping their bum, make up removal, blowing nose, mopping spills, polishing the mirror, menstrual issues etc (in Amandas case wiping dildos). In my experience toilet roll usage goes through the roof when it is used by women after a pee! (up to a roll at a time! lol)
I doubt if there is a woman in the western world over the age of 16 who does not have a toilet roll or tissues in their bedroom.  Usually they are located by the mirror for obvious reasons, removal of make-up etc.

@brmull

I cannot see the toilet roll you refer to in Merediths room. I see evidence of tissue usage, on and by her desk, but no roll. There is no storage area by her desk/mirror to store things unseen. In fact the whole area is open and we can view that there is no toilet roll. There are no rolls in either Amandas or Lauras room. Lauras room is tidy and she was known to be a tidy person. Amandas room is untidy and is known as an untidy person, however there is a cupboard in front of the mirror for storage.
I find it strange that there is evidence of tissue usage in Merediths room but no evidence of tissues or toilet rolls. Also, it is my opinion that toilet rolls would be the first things to be used in a ‘clean up’ because they are easy to dispose of without trace by flushing.

Personally I think that it was Amanda who directed Rudy to that bathroom in the first place. Thats how imo she knew to look for “evidence” of him in there. It is obvious that she would not go into that bathroom to dry her hair as has been pointed out that the mirror/dryers were in the laundry room. I dont believe that they washed the bathmat in the washer. I think that they may have spot cleaned it in the bathroom just trying to remove what they could and hoping to make it look like an old stain. Maybe she used to hair dryer to then dry the area she cleaned because that mat would take too long to dry otherwise.

Agreed, TP is easily flushed in a cleanup.

A prison wire tap recorded this conversation between Knox and her mother
M. “You called me one time saying…..”
A:” I was in shock you know”
M: “But this was before anything happened except for the fact that the house was…”
What do you think Knox could have said to her mother that gave her such concern as to grab the next plane out of Seattle?
My theory…..“Hi Mom, do you happen to know if italy has the Death Penalty?”

brmull

Too many excellent posts by yourself (and others) to possibly reply to in an equally considered, knowledgeable and precise manner.

A member of the appeal’s jury did mention the time of death- and doubts over this were a feature in their decision.
They were clearly stupid and very biased- hence they needed very little confusing information to reach their shocking decision.
IMO the scream heard was absolutely real and the beginning of the murder.

Several factors of the autopsy reveal a late time of death, however the issue of the empty duodenum does seem to place the murder at a time that makes it unfeasible for Sollecito to have been there (computer till about 9:20). It also in essence, contradicts the scream/footsteps issue between 10:40-11:30
At the same time this places the act as occurring pretty much at or soon after Meredith arrived back.

The 9-930 issue doesn’t seem logical but the empty duodenum does seem a strong fact that doesn’t tally with the 10:40-11:30 period of the murder.

Any thoughts?

Slightly confused here.

According to the reports No mention of DNA tests performed on Meredith’s hair on her head (surely a must) and on the face and neck region. Lalli took rectal and vaginal swabs.These and from under the fingernails are the only DNA tests taken from Meredith’s body.

At the time of the original autopsy, taking just these swabs makes perfect sense given the sexual nature of the scene found and the impossibility of anyone immediately envisaging such a unique disgusting and bizarre scenario that actually happened.

The issue of no DNA on the neck upper body doesn’t seem to be relevant as no checks, from what I see were done there anyway!

With such a horrifically large loss of blood suffered by Meredith, testing for anybody else’s DNA would be an impossibility (please correct if I’m wrong)- even with a very aggressive bare handed strangling action occurring as obtaining mixed DNA from a steam of blood around the neck would be very hard (unless there was a hair sample found)

This blood was cleaned away from the neck and upper body relatively soon in order to allow the coroner to inspect the nature of the knife wounds and other aspects.  Again, standard practice.

The scientific police don’t appear to have thought of Garafano’s conclusion- that Knox got smacked on the nose by Meredith and this is the principal reason for the mixed DNA in the bathroom.If they had reached this theory then maybe they might done an even more detailed analysis of the blood on the floor which they, again quite reasonably assumed to all be Meredith’s.

The prosecution and the scientific police were superb in such a complicated case and did many things right.  However, could /should they have taken swabs from Meredith’s hair on her head and on her wrist/hand area?

@rb, the ‘empty duodenum’ hypotheses has been refuted over and over again. The Massei court correctly stated that there is no consensus amongst pathologists as to this method’s accuracy in determining TOD. The only research conducted so far has been on a small sample group and acknowledges that stress and type of food can affect the time it takes for food to pass into the duodenum by several hours.

The most reliable TOD as far as I can see said sometime between 9:30 and 11:30. I see the attack beginning around 10:08 and TOD as 10:30pm.

rb,

I’m also having trouble keeping up with comments. I like to read all of them but there seem to be more than usual recently.

Fabio Angeletti, the alternate lay-judge, was the only one to speak out as far as I know. I don’t recall him saying anything about the time of death specifically.

According to Dempsey, Comodi put the time of death in closing arguments as between 10:30-11:30. Some people don’t believe Comodi actually said this and that the time of death remains shortly after 11:30.

Nonetheless Ergon thinks the TOD is 10:30, and I do as well. I don’t think you would ever get a room full of pathologists to agree that stomach contents are useful as a determinant of TOD. A pathologist in the OJ Simpson case claimed stomach contents could determine the time of death to +/- one hour, and he was essentially laughed out of court. Most people who do believe stomach contents are useful say that the TOD can only be determined within +/- two hours under the best of circumstances.

Remember Alessandra Formica did run into someone running the other direction at 10:40. She was doubtful as to whether this was one of the suspects, but I think it was probably Guede.

If the scream and disturbance around 11:30 actually happened—and I think it did—it must have been Knox screaming rather than Meredith.

Sollecito’s computer is not the rock-solid alibi the defense would have us believe. From what I understand the software used to analyze the computer lists when each file was last opened and last modified. The “possible human interaction” could just have easily have been a file-sharing program opening the file automatically. But even assuming they were still at the apartment at 9:10 that still gave them plenty of time to meet up with Guede and get to the cottage before 10:00.

rb (cont’d),

The police were criticized for not taking DNA swabs from Meredith’s face and hair. I think the amount of blood was an issue.

The mixed DNA in the bathroom is not too surprising since Knox and Meredith regularly used the bathroom. I’m not convinced Knox was bleeding. I think she and Sollecito ran as soon as they stabbed Meredith. I don’t think they stopped in the bathroom and tended a bloody nose.

I agree the police and prosecution did a remarkably good job under the circumstances.

starsdad,

The toilet paper roll is between the bedside table and the victim. I know there’s a better picture somewhere—you may have to take my word for now.

(Warning shows victim)

I’d just like to leave reference to toilet paper for anyone interested in researching this case.
Massei must be of the opinion that toilet paper was used in the clean up as he refers to Knox at Quintavalles store, thus… ‘She went into the store department that had groceries on sale, and detergents and toilet paper’....p.83 of his report
Also, the pieces of tissue in Merediths room are identified as toilet paper. (Massei p.190)

Hi brmull,

Amanda Knox was definitely bleeding on the night of the murder because her blood was on the tap of the basin in the bathroom.

“…a sample was taken from the front part of the faucet of the sink, which yielded the genetic profile of Amanda Knox…” (The Massei report, page 192).

Luciano Garofano notes that Knox’s blood was recent because it hadn’t been touched or cleaned and that it is logical to put this bloodstain in relation with the blood in the bidet and and basin.

The prosecution’s forensic experts testified that Knox’s blood had mixed with Meredith’s blood. Even Knox’s lawyers conceded this had happened. When Bruce Fischer challened Barbie Nadeau during a live chat on The Daily Beast website about claiming that Knox’s blood had mingled with Meredith’s blood, she countered that she had interviewed dozens of forensic experts:

“There are mixed genetic traces in spots of blood in which Amanda’s traces are higher than Meredith’s. That implies mixed blood according to the dozens of forensics experts I’ve interviewed about this.”

Machine,

Knox knew that the blood was old. She said as much in her 4 November email to friends. She would have wiped it off if it was her blood and had anything to do with the night of the murder. She wanted to throw police a curve-ball.

It’s too bad we don’t know more about the mixed traces in which Knox’s peaks are higher. But clearly it’s possible for a luminol print to have little if any of Meredith’s DNA—the prints in Knox’s room show only Knox’s DNA. I wouldn’t attribute this to Knox having stepped in her own blood, but to the fact that Knox’s DNA was plentiful in her own room.

Meredith arrived at the house.

I’m still with Garafono’s theory. Sollecito must have only used the shower. Knox transferred Meridith’s blood to the sink. Massei’s theory of that by rubbing the blood and her own skin cells off at the same time makes a lot of sense. Knox could also have been bleeding though- or banged her nose when looking/cleaning under Meridith’s bed in poor light.

Either way the idea that Guede somehow removes his own DNA while leaving, either by accident or deliberately, just Meridith’s and the Knox mixed samples to be completely unsustainable.

brmull & Ergon, many thanks for your responses. 

Does a 1130ish TOD from a 5-30 meal time ( the english do like to eat their supper early) make the factor of the empty duodenum highly unlikely for a person, perfectly normal or just neither normal or abnormal but something that is very random in terms of time?  Is it stretching it to put such a late time when the meal was ate early?

brmull, believe me I find the idea that Sollecito’s times of use of his computer give him an alibi to be utterly stupid and lacking sense, if the murder time is set after 945.

However, with this stupid jury they would have needed very little persuading to go down this route- on the most implausible of grounds. I expect Hellman to put the TOD to shortly after Meredith arrived at the house.

I’m still with Garafono’s theory. Sollecito must have only used the shower. Knox transferred Meridith’s blood to the sink. Massei’s theory of by rubbing the blood and her own skin cells off at the same time makes a lot of sense. Knox could also have been bleeding though- or banged her nose when looking/cleaning under Meredith’s bed in poor light.

Either way the idea that Guede somehow removes his own DNA while leaving , either by accident or deliberately, just Meridith’s and the Knox mixed samples to be completely unsustainable.

brmull

I think that maybe the blood wasn’t noticed or just wasn’t properly cleaned. There was also an earlier than expected arrival of the police. 

There were plenty of other things for them to manipulate at the scene.  Knox did come up with the usual nonsense, this time about her bleeding from an ear infection, I think.

The blood at the bottom of the sink may have been left as they were expecting it to all drain into the pipe - not dry up.

rb,

One pathologist I read declared, “If you know the stomach contents, you know nothing.”

But let’s suspend disbelief for a minute. Meredith sampled some mozzarella balls “some time after 5:30”. The meal was finished at 8:30.

The mozzarella balls don’t get emptied into the duodenum before all the other food. Instead the mozzarella balls become part of the rest of the stomach contents. So for purposes of gastric emptying the time she ate was probably more like 7:30.

I know the IJP people use 6:30 as the time of the last meal and use three hours as the outer limits for gastric emptying. They want to put the TOD around 9:30 so Knox and Sollecito have an alibi. That’s absurd.

Pathologists who believe in gastric emptying times generally give a margin of error of plus or minus two hours.

So an 11:30 TOD is at the outer edge of the time-frame even under IJP’s conservative estimate.

If you use 7:30 as the time of the last meal, then 11:30 is well within the time-frame, and 10:30 is exactly where you’d expect.

There are other reasons to believe that Meredith was attacked well before 11:30. For instance she was in the habit of calling friends and family in the evening and she hadn’t made any calls that night. For another, she hadn’t taken her wet clothes out of the wash. For another she hadn’t changed out of her daytime clothes. But an 11:30 TOD is certainly possible.

Points taken brmull! You’ve pretty much answered my points. Despite this, I have a feeling that the Hellman court may still come up with this gastric content issue and put the TOD between 9-930ish.

Very interesting about the socks.Are you suggesting that the socks were used as a glove or even worn normally by Knox /Sollecito?  If so then ,understandably, I don’t think Stefanoni would have actually tested the insides of the sock as the action of using the sock to move the handbag may not have been thought of by the forensics.  Maybe there are small specks of blood on the inner side of the sock transferred from Knox’s fingers?

Could they have planted some of Guede’s DNA onto the zip of the bag (from a glass that he drank from for instance) or is that going too far?

Hello, rb. I have always been amused by IIP’s ‘duodenal’ convolutions designed to assbackwardsly establish a time of death conducive to the defendants alibis:)

I reviewed the literature and this argument, that food, must pass into the duodenum within 3 hours of the first intake of food is only a hypothesis, a)not generally accepted by established medical examiners, having being tested on small sample groups in a laboratory and not in the field, and b)does not quantify variables such as age, stress levels or state of the individual’s digestive system.

We do not know with certainty when the meal began, just an approximation of around 6 pm. Therefore, if a) that time is correct and b) so is the hypothesis, she must have been killed some time after 9 pm. We already know that based on the last time she was seen alive. 

Move the time of the meal too far back, and you disprove the hypothesis. I would be very surprised, given that uncertainty, if Hellmann were to give the stomach contents any weight. All he examined was the DNA arguments, and even that was telegraphed from Greg Hampikian. Will he add TOD into the mix? Only if he has a direct line to the FOA.

With all due respect, what exercises us is numerous witness statements that place AK and RS at the scene both before and after the approximate time of death. AK was last seen at RS’s flat around 8:45 pm, and they could have made it to her flat in his car in 10 minutes. What helps us fix the time of Meredith’s death is also the chilling scream heard by the neighbour, the parked broken down car, the arrival of the tow truck, the sound of running footsteps.

The judge would be well advised to avoid trying to argue TOD at this late stage, imho. That would be a redundancy, but then nothing surprises me any more 😊

Ergon,

Agreed. I would just add that people don’t realize how close Raffaele’s apartment is to the cottage.

Google says 4 minutes WALKING. They could pretty much go over there whenever they felt like it, and that’s why it doesn’t make sense that they waited until morning to get a mop to clean up the spill.

http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=Via+Pergola,+7,+Perugia,+Italia&daddr=Corso+Garibaldi,+110,+Perugia,+Italy&hl=en&ll=43.116225,12.389445&spn=0.001907,0.00523&sll=43.30677,12.290135&sspn=0.486667,1.338959&geocode=FWjjkQIdqRC9ACkjpV1AgKAuEzGJT-ExqlvZpg;FSvqkQId8ge9ACmxfpF2Kh4sEzEQ_1TokCwIEw&vpsrc=6&mra=atm&dirflg=w&t=m&z=18

brmull,
and here we come to another central point to the case: They have no alibi They had lots of time to get to where Curatolo saw them, talking animatedly. Raffaele has never recanted his statement that Amanda left the apartment shortly after 9 pm.

Where next:

Or to next entry Facts Of Melania Rea’s Stabbing Death In Italy Last April Are Also Proving Hard To Get Straight #3

Or to previous entry Facts Of Melania Rea’s Stabbing Death In Italy Last April Are Also Proving Hard To Get Straight #1